Phew... you did notice that we could bring up a lot of original releases of Dos games that go for hundreds of dollars? Bringing up worthless rereleases on CDs is not the same, and certainly not bringing the retro feeling.
(2 examples: the two Ultima VII addons).

WDStudios wrote on 2021-06-22, 12:23:

megatron-uk wrote on 2021-06-22, 12:14:

You don't believe ISA support is needed (you mention that why would anyone need it when we have 7.1 channel AC97 audio). It is.

Name one DOS game that literally can't be completed without sound.

I've only come across one game that genuinely couldn't be completed without sound. It was Myst, and it was never ported to DOS.

This gets better! So your optimised retro gaming system now is not only not going to be able to scale down to speeds suitable to a huge range of DOS games, but it's also not going to bother supporting sound in the thousands of DOS games available?

The DOS classics, played without sound?

Doom? No sound?

The Secret of Monkey Island or Loom? No Sound?

You keep digging a hole for yourself. I would sincerely recommend you stop digging as it is quite clear to almost everyone that you are out of your depth and really don't understand your audience.

Ultima VI, VII, VIII without sound?
You are better off with a retropie in that regard...

If you want to play the cherry picking game, here's a Radeon 9800xt that sold for 27 bucks
https://www.ebay.com/itm/274766023864?hash=it … _app-cvip-panel

I paid my voodoo 3 for 2.5€ each 4 years ago and another one for 5€ 2 years ago
So they're cheap I guess 😀

Even if you could "easily" find a good doom copy for cheap, it doesn't negate the thousands of other games that are sold for a premium. Now you're the one that picks a few examples as a general rule.

DOS Games without sound ? Come on, my new am4 system can probably do that as good as what you want to do, I wouldn't need to do buy your product for that.

WDStudios wrote on 2021-06-22, 12:23:

Name one DOS game that literally can't be completed without sound.

I've only come across one game that genuinely couldn't be completed without sound. It was Myst, and it was never ported to DOS.

I think you are treating it as a joke at this point (and everyone else on this forum).

Dominus wrote on 2021-06-22, 12:43:

Phew... you did notice that we could bring up a lot of original releases of Dos games that go for hundreds of dollars? Bringing up worthless rereleases on CDs is not the same, and certainly not bringing the retro feeling.
(2 examples: the two Ultima VII addons).

Doesn't matter. Point is, physical media isn't that rare or expensive.

megatron-uk wrote on 2021-06-22, 12:47:

This gets better! So your optimised retro gaming system now is not only not going to be able to scale down to speeds suitable to […]
Show full quote

This gets better! So your optimised retro gaming system now is not only not going to be able to scale down to speeds suitable to a huge range of DOS games, but it's also not going to bother supporting sound in the thousands of DOS games available?

The DOS classics, played without sound?

Doom? No sound?

The Secret of Monkey Island or Loom? No Sound?

That was quite obviously an imaginary, worst-case scenario. Obviously some kind of integrated sound would be provided with the aim of supporting the broadest possible range of software, but "broadest possible" isn't going to cover every single title. There are design compromises that must be made in everything that has ever been designed in the history of designing things. Why are you demanding that this product be impossibly perfect, or have a grossly inflated price tag to accommodate features that only cover a few edge cases?

And yes, I played the original Monkey Island without sound back in the day.

Deksor wrote on 2021-06-22, 12:56:

If you want to play the cherry picking game

I don't. I wasn't the person who wanted to use Doom as an example, and all three examples that I provided were from the first page of results. You had to go all the way back to April to find your cherry-picked example.

Deksor wrote on 2021-06-22, 12:56:

Now you're the one that picks a few examples as a general rule.

No, that's you.

Unless you implement a system which has a sound blaster compatible pcm mode and adlib register-compatible ports at the standard addresses that all games expect to write to (which, for all intents and purposes means hanging it off an ISA bus - even the best PCI implementations using DDMA are nowhere near as compatible and no current silicon has support for this either) you have just isolated almost your entire potential customer base of DOS gamers.

The number of gamers who would choose to play their favourite games without full support for sound (and without getting in to midi standards that means adlib and sound blaster by default) is going to be absolutely microscopic.

Doesn't matter. Point is, physical media isn't that rare or expensive.

No, you are deliberately missing the point by choosing cheap rereleases that will not bring the retro experience you alluded to in another post. There are many expensive examples. I am in a big box collectors group and I am seeing prices that are unbelievable.

It's a theme in your posts to not listen to anything and then cherry pick.
I thought the idea was great but didn't believe it was possible at all and you would eventually by set right by these friends you mentioned. But now I hope you don't involve them for some time and change the specs and aim of the project further with each page of this thread. I'm curios what will happen on page 10.

I still say some nice emulation and wrappers would be the best way to go about realizing a project that will actually do what is wanted \ needed.

A fully custom hardware solution is most likely to not be economically feasible.

WDStudios wrote on 2021-06-22, 17:35:

I don't. I wasn't the person who wanted to use Doom as an example, and all three examples that I provided were from the first page of results. You had to go all the way back to April to find your cherry-picked example.

No, that's you.

I give examples of what's cherry picking, you accuse me of doing it ... ok.

What I had in mind was the floppy version of Doom, but fair enough.
But there are more games, for example :
The neverhood,
duke nukem 3d
the elder scrolls 2,
ultima VI,
loom.
They're not all obscure games, but they're pretty hard to find for a good price. And there aren't that many re-releases.

megatron-uk wrote on 2021-06-22, 17:50:

Unless you implement a system which has a sound blaster compatible pcm mode and adlib register-compatible ports at the standard addresses that all games expect to write to (which, for all intents and purposes means hanging it off an ISA bus

So all you're asking for is an ISA bus, not necessarily a physical ISA slot? That might be a lot more viable and would definitely be something to discuss with my hardware guy, if the project attracts enough interest to move forward.

megatron-uk wrote on 2021-06-22, 17:50:

even the best PCI implementations using DDMA are nowhere near as compatible and no current silicon has support for this either

Yeah, I saw that one of the old school Sound Blasters got re-released for PCI. I didn't realize that it had problems.

Dominus wrote on 2021-06-22, 18:05:

by choosing cheap rereleases that will not bring the retro experience you alluded to in another post.

Re-releases can be retro if they're old enough. In this case, we're talking about a 26-year-old re-release, which also happened to be the first release of some newly created content (Episode 4: Thy Flesh Consumed). That definitely counts in my opinion.

Dominus wrote on 2021-06-22, 18:05:

No, you are deliberately missing the point

It's a theme in your posts to not listen to anything

As I've already said, lying about me won't get you anywhere. I can cite three examples off the top of my head, from this thread alone, of me saying "yes, that's a good idea and something to implement or discuss implementing".

Dominus wrote on 2021-06-22, 18:05:

and then cherry pick.

No, I have not cherry-picked once in ANY of my posts on this forum.

Dominus wrote on 2021-06-22, 18:05:

change the specs

There are literally no specs to change, other than "Win98 compatibility". I've already said that several times.

I can point out varios points in this thread you deliberately missed or dismissed...
I am not lying and stating this is rude and a weak discussion strategy.
Same as the Doom cherry picking. It was an example that you deliberately chose to interpret the way it fits your narrative, ignoring other examples but instead sticking to this and using other releases to not concede a point. It's obvious and petty.

I would suggest that we all just sit back and let the OP do his bidding. When the OP realized his dream, we would all be shut up once and for all. Frankly, I do share some of his dreams but we had taken different approaches towards those dreams. The intelligence demonstrated in the OP's replies had me in doubts if migrating to Linux and playing all his old Windows games in VM or WINE would be his cup of tea. Sorry, no offense! 😉

Anyway, for the OP, this video was made for you. I hope you enjoy watching it. 😉

As the owner of two Vortex86 systems, neither of which cost as much as any of my 486 motherboards, I wouldn't be interested unless you manage to fulfil the project at a much lower price than I (and others, apparently) expect it to cost.

Develop a new soc and suitable board and peripherals for under $100 (must be fully x86 compatible to interest me), then I will probably be interested.

Can't offer any constructive suggestions though, as you already dismissed my suggestion of using a second hand Vortex86 system.

kjliew wrote on 2021-06-22, 20:29:

I would suggest that we all just sit back and let the OP do his bidding. When the OP realized his dream, we would all be shut up once and for all. Frankly, I do share some of his dreams but we had taken different approaches towards those dreams. The intelligence demonstrated in the OP's replies had me in doubts if migrating to Linux and playing all his old Windows games in VM or WINE would be his cup of tea.

Non-ironically, WINE is allegedly one of the best/easiest current ways to access a lot of Win9x content on modern hardware. The dude who wrote that post is one of the smartest people I know, has massive respect in the industry, and owns more retro hardware than any 5 of us put together.

But WINE's ability to target a hugely complex array of compatibility levels on an individual application basis is just crazy. I'm bouncing between Win95 Direct3D 3 stuff and Win10+D3D9/10/11 stuff without any problems.

Dominus wrote on 2021-06-22, 18:46:

I can point out varios points in this thread you deliberately missed or dismissed...
I am not lying and stating this is rude and a weak discussion strategy.
Same as the Doom cherry picking. It was an example that you deliberately chose to interpret the way it fits your narrative, ignoring other examples but instead sticking to this and using other releases to not concede a point. It's obvious and petty.

Amazing. Every word of what you just said is wrong.

I didn't pick Doom as an example. When Deskor used Doom as an example, I was able to very quickly provide FOUR eBay listings of 26-year-old physical media for $12 or less, all from the first page of either incomplete (for the first example) or completed (for the other 3) listings. You want more examples?

Here's one that ended at $5: https://www.ebay.com/itm/184867636587?hash=it … ZwAAOSwirtgt-Qe

Here's one that ended at $20: https://www.ebay.com/itm/363410732608?hash=it … pcAAOSwwlhgrTMm

Here's one that ended at $8: https://www.ebay.com/itm/174712444327?epid=55 … bQAAOSw~49fhhzf

Here's one that ended at $6: https://www.ebay.com/itm/274807211399?hash=it … jEAAOSwfjFgqavK

All of these are from literally the first page of results, and that's ignoring all the Mac releases, Ultimate Doom Trilogy Collector's Editions, and whatever other junk pops up in a search for "ultimate doom".

That is not cherry-picking. That is just proof that Deskor was wrong.

Deksor wrote on 2021-06-22, 18:19:

But there are more games, for example :
duke nukem 3d

Literally the very first result, for the PC platform, among completed listings, in a search for "duke nukem 3d": https://www.ebay.com/itm/Duke-Nukem-3D-PC-199 … &orig_cvip=true

Eight US dollars, zero bids. (yeah, shipping would have been another 12 USD so the total cost is $20, but still... not expensive)

I'm not going to waste my time going through every game on your list when you clearly can't be bothered to do the ten seconds of Ebaying necessary to verify your claims before you make them.

Amazing, you just did it again...
I actually hope you are deliberately missing the point of what you quoted.
If you really are not understanding this, no one talked about "ultimate doom", no one but you. Try original Doom.
But again, Doom IS NOT THE POINT, it was an example that old games are not cheap. There are other examples. I named you two. You ignored it.

Stop claiming everyone is lying when they prove you wrong. Again, it's a silly discussion strategy and only drives this thread to the ground.

You want to further this idea of you? Start listening to the people you pitch it. Don't antagonize them by always trying to win arguments at all costs. If everyone is saying you are wrong you might be wrong... or a hidden genius 😉
Or if everyone disagrees with you it might be time to stop arguing and look elsewhere for the room of people that believe in you.

Because, face it, you already burnt this thread to the ground. You probably realized it by now but your pride just can't let you stop arguing, trying to win.
Do you honestly believe you can still win anyone here? *I* don't think so. Certainly not with words, but most likely with deeds.
A solid plan, backing from engineers, backing from software developers. This would impress us.
Go for it! If you believe in your idea pitch it to your friends, pitch it to AMD.

Dominus wrote on 2021-06-22, 22:57:

If you really are not understanding this, no one talked about "ultimate doom", no one but you. Try original Doom.

Ultimate Doom is literally the original Doom plus a fourth episode. It's not a new or pseudo-new game like Final Doom was.

Dominus wrote on 2021-06-22, 22:57:

But again, Doom IS NOT THE POINT, it was an example that old games are not cheap.

A bad, incorrect example, as I've repeatedly proved.

Dominus wrote on 2021-06-22, 22:57:

There are other examples. I named you two. You ignored it.

Or I just didn't see them. Or they got lost in the shuffle of all the copying and pasting.

Ah, I see the two pieces of software you mentioned now.

You can get ALL (?) of Ultima VII's expansion packs plus the original Ultima VII itself for $55: https://www.ebay.com/itm/384212262943?hash=it … h4AAOSwfmBgUVDz

In fact, the seller is having difficulty selling that item for $55, and has repeatedly re-listed it at that price.

I think the problem is that you all are going about defining your qualifications for expensive games.

It is more the specific media that the files are on than the actual game itself.

Original release media that is rare-ish is always going to end up going for more than rereleases that are on CD instead of floppy.

To me it is all the same unless I happen to come across an "expensive" release that I can then sell and buy a different medium that is cheaper even though it is practically the same exact software.

Duke Nukem 3D is a great example as is Doom. The original floppy release is going to generally be super expensive but the CD releases are generally cheap.