An ess 1868f for dos with an SB Live! for windows. That part is easy. Video card is harder. You can find a tnt2 m64 in PCI for pretty cheap and they are period correct, old drivers, ect. but you are leaving behind some performance. You could also get an FX card in PCI and get a bit more performance, especially in 32 bit colors, but newer drivers. They are also more expensive.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-07-01, 22:56:

An ess 1868f for dos with an SB Live! for windows. That part is easy. Video card is harder. You can find a tnt2 m64 in PCI for pretty cheap and they are period correct, old drivers, ect. but you are leaving behind some performance. You could also get an FX card in PCI and get a bit more performance, especially in 32 bit colors, but newer drivers. They are also more expensive.

Exactly the kind of answer I was looking for! Both cards seem equally dos compatible, save for the FX not being able to do Hi-Res Duke 3d. Another FX downside I recall is that they're really directx 9 cards, so they have potential issues with any directx before 5. Would the MX420/MX4000 be a better middle of the road? It's DirectX 7 compatible, and PCI MX4000s can be found anywhere.

rishooty wrote on 2021-07-02, 00:42:

mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-07-01, 22:56:

An ess 1868f for dos with an SB Live! for windows. That part is easy. Video card is harder. You can find a tnt2 m64 in PCI for pretty cheap and they are period correct, old drivers, ect. but you are leaving behind some performance. You could also get an FX card in PCI and get a bit more performance, especially in 32 bit colors, but newer drivers. They are also more expensive.

Exactly the kind of answer I was looking for! Both cards seem equally dos compatible, save for the FX not being able to do Hi-Res Duke 3d. Another FX downside I recall is that they're really directx 9 cards, so they have potential issues with any directx before 5. Would the MX420/MX4000 be a better middle of the road? It's DirectX 7 compatible, and PCI MX4000s can be found anywhere.

Pretty much any PCI card from nvidia before the geforce 6 series will work. The MX 400 series should be fine - a lot faster than a TNT2 anyway.

I don't know of any specific computability issues with the FX series - other potentially than drivers.

I'd say those specs are ok and often more than bare minimum for the games you listed, especially if you find that PCi card such as MX440 or TNT2 even

what will you use for storage? CF maybe?

as for OS, Late win 95 in my view is Win98se 😀 well, it would be fine on your system anyway

rishooty wrote on 2021-07-01, 22:22:

Diablo 2 System Shock 2 Thief: Dark Project Unreal Tournament '99 […]
Show full quote

Diablo 2
System Shock 2
Thief: Dark Project
Unreal Tournament '99

These won't run so great on a Pentium MMX 200. With a Voodoo2, Banshee or Voodoo3, you could get somewhat acceptable frame rates, but the CPU would still bottleneck you heavily.

Voodoo cards are extremely expensive nowadays, but they have the least driver overhead. If you choose an Nvidia card instead, I would not recommend going higher than a GeForce2 MX PCI. Anything made after that needs newer drivers, which are optimized for later CPUs, and will not work so well on your MMX.

As you say this is attempt #4 I'd just slow down a bit.
200MMX makes for pretty good late dos rig so you have a good base.
But get to know the system, it's strengths and weaknesses before going out and buying more hardware.
As you don't have any sound card you'll need to get that. The suggested SBLive is a good call been common and cheap.

ISA sound card is bit harder as each card has pro's and cons. The suggested ESS or a Yamaha or a Creative card are good alternatives. I'd get whichever you can get for a good price. Once you become more familiar with dos you can work if you do need to swap out the card.

Video I'd stick with the onboard for now and work out how many of the games struggle. Maybe your better of spending money on a 3DFX card like Joseph_Joestar said, maybe D3D performance is lacking so need a Nvidia card as mothergoose729 mentioned, or maybe it's the CPU holding you back and nothing is to be gained from the upgrade.

that you don't need that extra perforce of the FX if even the Rage can play the games 1/2 alright.

OS Try both Win95 and 98, 95 is bit more light weight but 98 is more stable. 98lite is a good middle ground between the 2.
DONT install any unofficial service packs. they just complicate matters. a games PC just needs Direct X a updated component for installing a game or driver. but it'll tell you what it needs if it can't find it.
Later down the track if you want to start messing round with the features included in the unofficial service packs that's fine but you'll know what a "clean" build of windows feels like to compare with this way.

Some helpful benchmarks. The SS7 build is probably twice as fast in the CPU as your pentium MMX.

https://youtu.be/md5Wl7t-VfI?t=1389

I am not super convinced that driver overhead is a huge deal, but you also don't need something very fast to max out your CPU. The harder part is finding a PCI variant that is affordable.

gerry wrote on 2021-07-02, 08:03:

I'd say those specs are ok and often more than bare minimum for the games you listed, especially if you find that PCi card such as MX440 or TNT2 even

what will you use for storage? CF maybe?

as for OS, Late win 95 in my view is Win98se 😀 well, it would be fine on your system anyway

As with my past builds and laptops, I'm torn on storage options. I know that with anything besides DOS and 3.x, you risk wearing down the SSD writes. On the other hand, I hear that it doesn't really matter if all you do is play games on them. There's less writes, and what's the worst that'll happen? You lose some save files in 5 years? Not to mention they're very easy to back up. Then there's SSHDs. Which are frankly, kind of expensive vs other options. They're what I opted for in the past when I wanted to go nuts. When I wanted things easy I usually just grabbed the most decent condition 120GB IDE HDD I could find.

Also MX440 comes in PCI? I haven't been able to find one. I've only seen MX420/MX4000(it's ever so slightly updated chipset version). MX420s are expensive while brand new, in-box Jaton MX4000's can be picked up for almost nothing.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-07-02, 08:22:

rishooty wrote on 2021-07-01, 22:22:

Diablo 2 System Shock 2 Thief: Dark Project Unreal Tournament '99 […]
Show full quote

Diablo 2
System Shock 2
Thief: Dark Project
Unreal Tournament '99

These won't run so great on a Pentium MMX 200. With a Voodoo2, Banshee or Voodoo3, you could get somewhat acceptable frame rates, but the CPU would still bottleneck you heavily.

Voodoo cards are extremely expensive nowadays, but they have the least driver overhead. If you choose an Nvidia card instead, I would not recommend going higher than a GeForce2 MX PCI. Anything made after that needs newer drivers, which are optimized for later CPUs, and will not work so well on your MMX.

Oh no, I'm never spending the money I spent on a Voodoo 3 PCI ever again. While waiting for responses I did look up the requirements of my "nice to haves", and yes, I've confirmed that they'll certainly underperform here. This is honestly fine, and why they were only "nice to have". I'm specifically targeting games that are difficult to run on modern windows systems, not ones that have incredible digital releases already. In fact, UT99 can't be played online on anything less than Win2000 anyway due to an anti-cheat that most servers use.

(Regarding Geforce2 MX PCI) Also, thanks for letting me know that I can go even cheaper/older/more period correct! I didn't know there was a significant driver difference after that. Yeah, I honestly just want bare minimum directX 7 if only for Homm 3.

chinny22 wrote on 2021-07-02, 09:31:

As you say this is attempt #4 I'd just slow down a bit. 200MMX makes for pretty good late dos rig so you have a good base. But g […]
Show full quote

As you say this is attempt #4 I'd just slow down a bit.
200MMX makes for pretty good late dos rig so you have a good base.
But get to know the system, it's strengths and weaknesses before going out and buying more hardware.
As you don't have any sound card you'll need to get that. The suggested SBLive is a good call been common and cheap.

ISA sound card is bit harder as each card has pro's and cons. The suggested ESS or a Yamaha or a Creative card are good alternatives. I'd get whichever you can get for a good price. Once you become more familiar with dos you can work if you do need to swap out the card.

Video I'd stick with the onboard for now and work out how many of the games struggle. Maybe your better of spending money on a 3DFX card like Joseph_Joestar said, maybe D3D performance is lacking so need a Nvidia card as mothergoose729 mentioned, or maybe it's the CPU holding you back and nothing is to be gained from the upgrade.

that you don't need that extra perforce of the FX if even the Rage can play the games 1/2 alright.

OS Try both Win95 and 98, 95 is bit more light weight but 98 is more stable. 98lite is a good middle ground between the 2.
DONT install any unofficial service packs. they just complicate matters. a games PC just needs Direct X a updated component for installing a game or driver. but it'll tell you what it needs if it can't find it.
Later down the track if you want to start messing round with the features included in the unofficial service packs that's fine but you'll know what a "clean" build of windows feels like to compare with this way.

Slowing down is precisely why I'm doing this here. Yeah, I'm probably just gonna use plain 98se outright with DirectX7 and Phil's MSDOS Mode Starter Pack. Yeah ISA is definitely harder. The AWE64 or AWE64 Gold would be my ideal. It's about $10 more on eBay, but it ships from Russia or Ukraine so I know it'll take a while. I also watched Phil's videos for both cards, it looks like the ESS is much easier and lower fuss at the cost of extra features (which is a huge feature in itself for me). In either case, would you recommend a wavetable card such as the S2/X2? I really adore anything that sounds like the SC-55, which I know the default Buran soundfont attempts to do. DirectX6 and early DirectX7 are my target, so I think the GF2MX series works just fine.

In my experience, both the GF4mx PCI and the fx5200 PCI turn into a slideshow when running Unreal in 32bit color. The gpu should be powerful enough, but obviously there's something buggy in the PCI implementation and/or drivers.
On the other hand, the GF 6200 PCI and the Radeon 9200 PCI did not have such problems.

pixel_workbench wrote on 2021-07-02, 15:40:

In my experience, both the GF4mx PCI and the fx5200 PCI turn into a slideshow when running Unreal in 32bit color. The gpu should be powerful enough, but obviously there's something buggy in the PCI implementation and/or drivers.
On the other hand, the GF 6200 PCI and the Radeon 9200 PCI did not have such problems.

Unreal Gold has that problem on every GPU I have tried. There are community patches you can apply that fix it.

For a good Windows 95 / DOS era gaming computer I would say this.

CPU - Pentium Class CPU 75 thru 233.
Motherboard - Socket 7 motherboard.
Motherboard Cache - 256kb or more
RAM - 32mb EDO
Video card - S3 trio64
Sound Card - AWE64 ( CT4500 ) or ( CT4520 ) will produce good sound close to Ronald GS MIDI standards. ( Next best thing to Roland GS ).
Network card - Netgear FA - 310tx

This build in completely “Plug and Play” with Win95b installation CD.
No hardware conflicts or software incompatibilities.

Everything will install Vanilla “Plug and Play”

Easy as Lego’s

And this build should be good enough to play most WIn95/DOS era games.

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-07-02, 22:45:

For a good Windows 95 / DOS era gaming computer I would say this. […]
Show full quote

For a good Windows 95 / DOS era gaming computer I would say this.

CPU - Pentium Class CPU 75 thru 233.
Motherboard - Socket 7 motherboard.
Motherboard Cache - 256kb or more
RAM - 32mb EDO
Video card - S3 trio64
Sound Card - AWE64 ( CT4500 ) or ( CT4520 ) will produce good sound close to Ronald GS MIDI standards. ( Next best thing to Roland GS ).
Network card - Netgear FA - 310tx

This build in completely “Plug and Play” with Win95b installation CD.
No hardware conflicts or software incompatibilities.

Everything will install Vanilla “Plug and Play”

Easy as Lego’s

And this build should be good enough to play most WIn95/DOS era games.

Are you sure. Have you ever in your life build such a system?

The first ever OS I had that detected every piece of hardware on a fresh install was Red Hat 7.3 on my wee 1997 HP 3216 P200mmx system in the early 2000s. It also set up the network on the fresh installation. Only one reboot as well during the whole installation process.

Just curious that's all...

I am not sure. Let me which Win-95/DOS era games my build posted above will not play.

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-07-02, 23:39:

I am not sure. Let me which Win-95/DOS era games my build posted above will not play.

If you haven't done it and proved that hardware will run without any conflicts your previous post is totally mute and just a fabrication/assumption on your part.

It was referred to as Plug n Prey for a very good reason...

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-07-02, 22:45:

For a good Windows 95 / DOS era gaming computer I would say this. […]
Show full quote

For a good Windows 95 / DOS era gaming computer I would say this.

CPU - Pentium Class CPU 75 thru 233.
Motherboard - Socket 7 motherboard.
Motherboard Cache - 256kb or more
RAM - 32mb EDO
Video card - S3 trio64
Sound Card - AWE64 ( CT4500 ) or ( CT4520 ) will produce good sound close to Ronald GS MIDI standards. ( Next best thing to Roland GS ).
Network card - Netgear FA - 310tx

This build in completely “Plug and Play” with Win95b installation CD.
No hardware conflicts or software incompatibilities.

Everything will install Vanilla “Plug and Play”

Easy as Lego’s

And this build should be good enough to play most WIn95/DOS era games.

Your build sounds nice on the DOS end, but I'd be missing out on quite a bit of the stuff I grew up with:

• DK castle explorer requires DX2
• Claw requires at least DX3
• virtua fighter 1 and 2 require DX3
• command and conquer + red alert needs DX3 (more titles i forgot)
• Age of Empires requires at least DX5
• Rollercoaster tycoon requires at least DirectX5
• Star wars droidworks requires DX5 (a title I forgot about)
• HOMM2 uses directdraw, and i'm not sure it's tied to a specific version. If i recall HOMM2 gold came bundled with directx 6.
• Age of Empires II requires at least DX6.1 Base, DX7 with the conquerors expansion. It's also the only game in my list to recommend 64MB of ram.
• The Sims requires DX7

If I REALLY wanted to max out my dos compatibility, I'd need an s3 virge at least for DX5. This would cut off AOEII, Sims, and possibly Homm 2. I also hear its 3d performance is awful, so that would knock droidworks and virtua fighter off that list as well. As it stands a TNT2 M64, a GF2MX, or a GF4MX seem to be my best options. I can live without most of these, but not droidworks or Homm2.

I guess it's an option, so long as I can figure out how DirectDraw works with Homm2 or someone can confirm that it'll work on a DX5 card.

[EDIT] According to ebay (which i know isn't the best source but most convenient), it just so happens that the s3 virge is the cheapest option, with the mx4000 coming a close second by $10.

rishooty wrote on 2021-07-03, 02:02:

Your build sounds nice on the DOS end, but I'd be missing out on quite a bit of the stuff I grew up with: […]
Show full quote

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-07-02, 22:45:

For a good Windows 95 / DOS era gaming computer I would say this. […]
Show full quote

For a good Windows 95 / DOS era gaming computer I would say this.

CPU - Pentium Class CPU 75 thru 233.
Motherboard - Socket 7 motherboard.
Motherboard Cache - 256kb or more
RAM - 32mb EDO
Video card - S3 trio64
Sound Card - AWE64 ( CT4500 ) or ( CT4520 ) will produce good sound close to Ronald GS MIDI standards. ( Next best thing to Roland GS ).
Network card - Netgear FA - 310tx

This build in completely “Plug and Play” with Win95b installation CD.
No hardware conflicts or software incompatibilities.

Everything will install Vanilla “Plug and Play”

Easy as Lego’s

And this build should be good enough to play most WIn95/DOS era games.

Your build sounds nice on the DOS end, but I'd be missing out on quite a bit of the stuff I grew up with:

• DK castle explorer requires DX2
• Claw requires at least DX3
• virtua fighter 1 and 2 require DX3
• command and conquer + red alert needs DX3 (more titles i forgot)
• Age of Empires requires at least DX5
• Rollercoaster tycoon requires at least DirectX5
• Star wars droidworks requires DX5 (a title I forgot about)
• HOMM2 uses directdraw, and i'm not sure it's tied to a specific version. If i recall HOMM2 gold came bundled with directx 6.
• Age of Empires II requires at least DX6.1 Base, DX7 with the conquerors expansion. It's also the only game in my list to recommend 64MB of ram.
• The Sims requires DX7

If I REALLY wanted to max out my dos compatibility, I'd need an s3 virge at least for DX5. This would cut off AOEII, Sims, and possibly Homm 2. I also hear its 3d performance is awful, so that would knock droidworks and virtua fighter off that list as well. As it stands a TNT2 M64, a GF2MX, or a GF4MX seem to be my best options. I can live without most of these, but not droidworks or Homm2.

I guess it's an option, so long as I can figure out how DirectDraw works with Homm2 or someone can confirm that it'll work on a DX5 card.

[EDIT] According to ebay (which i know isn't the best source but most convenient), it just so happens that the s3 virge is the cheapest option, with the mx4000 coming a close second by $10.

Okay, but are these Win95 era games or Win98 era games ?

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-07-03, 02:36:

rishooty wrote on 2021-07-03, 02:02:

Your build sounds nice on the DOS end, but I'd be missing out on quite a bit of the stuff I grew up with: […]
Show full quote

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-07-02, 22:45:

For a good Windows 95 / DOS era gaming computer I would say this. […]
Show full quote

For a good Windows 95 / DOS era gaming computer I would say this.

CPU - Pentium Class CPU 75 thru 233.
Motherboard - Socket 7 motherboard.
Motherboard Cache - 256kb or more
RAM - 32mb EDO
Video card - S3 trio64
Sound Card - AWE64 ( CT4500 ) or ( CT4520 ) will produce good sound close to Ronald GS MIDI standards. ( Next best thing to Roland GS ).
Network card - Netgear FA - 310tx

This build in completely “Plug and Play” with Win95b installation CD.
No hardware conflicts or software incompatibilities.

Everything will install Vanilla “Plug and Play”

Easy as Lego’s

And this build should be good enough to play most WIn95/DOS era games.

Your build sounds nice on the DOS end, but I'd be missing out on quite a bit of the stuff I grew up with:

• DK castle explorer requires DX2
• Claw requires at least DX3
• virtua fighter 1 and 2 require DX3
• command and conquer + red alert needs DX3 (more titles i forgot)
• Age of Empires requires at least DX5
• Rollercoaster tycoon requires at least DirectX5
• Star wars droidworks requires DX5 (a title I forgot about)
• HOMM2 uses directdraw, and i'm not sure it's tied to a specific version. If i recall HOMM2 gold came bundled with directx 6.
• Age of Empires II requires at least DX6.1 Base, DX7 with the conquerors expansion. It's also the only game in my list to recommend 64MB of ram.
• The Sims requires DX7

If I REALLY wanted to max out my dos compatibility, I'd need an s3 virge at least for DX5. This would cut off AOEII, Sims, and possibly Homm 2. I also hear its 3d performance is awful, so that would knock droidworks and virtua fighter off that list as well. As it stands a TNT2 M64, a GF2MX, or a GF4MX seem to be my best options. I can live without most of these, but not droidworks or Homm2.

I guess it's an option, so long as I can figure out how DirectDraw works with Homm2 or someone can confirm that it'll work on a DX5 card.

[EDIT] According to ebay (which i know isn't the best source but most convenient), it just so happens that the s3 virge is the cheapest option, with the mx4000 coming a close second by $10.

Okay, but are these Win95 era games or Win98 era games ?

I recall my family computer back then came with 95 which was later upgraded to 98. So the answer is mostly 95 with some low spec 98 sprinkled in. I imagine the video card had to have been upgraded at some point as well, since AOEII the conquerors worked fine.

[EDIT] Looking up prices, it seems my best bet is the MX4000 and AWE64 Value. Technically, the 1868f is a better value by itself. However, GM audio that sounds close to the SC-55 is very important to me. The AWE64 is much cheaper and simpler than getting a wavetable compatible card + S2/X2/X2GS and it sounds great standalone. To keep things simple, I'll forgo a 9x dedicated sound card, I don't really care about EAX. For transfers and maybe some lan experiementation, a 3Com 3C905 is a pretty obvious network choice. I'm also going to add a GoTek floppy emulator, they're dirt cheap for what I need.

Next topics:
1. storage options! SD? CF? A 120GB SSD? Any 120GB NoS HDD I can find?
2. How much RAM? I know 32MB is good for DOS, but is there anything in my list that would need or benefit from 64, 96, or 128MB?

rishooty wrote on 2021-07-03, 02:54:

I recall my family computer back then came with 95 which was later upgraded to 98. So the answer is mostly 95 with some low spec […]
Show full quote

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-07-03, 02:36:

rishooty wrote on 2021-07-03, 02:02:

Your build sounds nice on the DOS end, but I'd be missing out on quite a bit of the stuff I grew up with: […]
Show full quote

Your build sounds nice on the DOS end, but I'd be missing out on quite a bit of the stuff I grew up with:

• DK castle explorer requires DX2
• Claw requires at least DX3
• virtua fighter 1 and 2 require DX3
• command and conquer + red alert needs DX3 (more titles i forgot)
• Age of Empires requires at least DX5
• Rollercoaster tycoon requires at least DirectX5
• Star wars droidworks requires DX5 (a title I forgot about)
• HOMM2 uses directdraw, and i'm not sure it's tied to a specific version. If i recall HOMM2 gold came bundled with directx 6.
• Age of Empires II requires at least DX6.1 Base, DX7 with the conquerors expansion. It's also the only game in my list to recommend 64MB of ram.
• The Sims requires DX7

If I REALLY wanted to max out my dos compatibility, I'd need an s3 virge at least for DX5. This would cut off AOEII, Sims, and possibly Homm 2. I also hear its 3d performance is awful, so that would knock droidworks and virtua fighter off that list as well. As it stands a TNT2 M64, a GF2MX, or a GF4MX seem to be my best options. I can live without most of these, but not droidworks or Homm2.

I guess it's an option, so long as I can figure out how DirectDraw works with Homm2 or someone can confirm that it'll work on a DX5 card.

[EDIT] According to ebay (which i know isn't the best source but most convenient), it just so happens that the s3 virge is the cheapest option, with the mx4000 coming a close second by $10.

Okay, but are these Win95 era games or Win98 era games ?

I recall my family computer back then came with 95 which was later upgraded to 98. So the answer is mostly 95 with some low spec 98 sprinkled in. I imagine the video card had to have been upgraded at some point as well, since AOEII the conquerors worked fine.

[EDIT] Looking up prices, it seems my best bet is the MX4000 and AWE64 Value. Technically, the 1868f is a better value by itself. However, GM audio that sounds close to the SC-55 is very important to me. The AWE64 is much cheaper and simpler than getting a wavetable compatible card + S2/X2/X2GS and it sounds great standalone. To keep things simple, I'll forgo a 9x dedicated sound card, I don't really care about EAX. For transfers and maybe some lan experiementation, a 3Com 3C905 is a pretty obvious network choice. I'm also going to add a GoTek floppy emulator, they're dirt cheap for what I need.

Next topics:
1. storage options! SD? CF? A 120GB SSD? Any 120GB NoS HDD I can find?
2. How much RAM? I know 32MB is good for DOS, but is there anything in my list that would need or benefit from 64, 96, or 128MB?

There is a difference.
Computer manufactures would have labels on the computers as to what operating system they where designed for.
Microsoft Windows stickers reading designed for Windows NT, Windows 2000, WIndows-95, Windows-98, Windows-ME.
Also the AMD CPU’s had printed “Designed for Windows 95 or 98”

DOS/Win 3x appeared to be 386 thru 486dx4-100 CPU’s

Win-95 CPU’s appeared to be AMD 5x86 thru K62 production dates.
And Intel Pentium 75 thru 200mhz

Win-98 CPU’s appear to be AMD K62 thru K63+ Production dates
And Intel Pentium 233mhz thru Pentium III 750ghz. Production dates.

They will all run Linux as well...😉