I've got two CF cards for my Asus TXP4 + Pentium-MMX 233MHz + Gainward CARDEXpert S3 Savage4 Pro + noisy but extremely compatible SB Pro 2 (CT1600): one 512MB for DOS + Win3.1 (little use for games, but useful for some software and e-books on CD-ROM), another 1GB for Win98SE.

With cache toggling via BIOS the system can run just about all DOS games except the some really old XT-era games like the original DOS version of Tetris.

I'll check my stock of sound and video cards in the next few days.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-10-04, 02:04:

[...]

Concerning sound cards, since you mentioned wanting to connect external MIDI devices, Creative cards are generally bad in that regard. See here for more details. An ESS card would be a much better choice for that. However, both Creative and ESS cards lack intelligent mode MPU-401 which is needed by your MT-32.

It's not the MT-32 itself that needs intelligent mode, it will happily communicate in UART mode. It's some really old games, say 1989-1992, that need intelligent mode (even if you were to - inadvisedly - use them with a different module). That is why a software solution (SoftMPU) is a good option. Only time that doesn't work is with really old CPU (not an issue here) or with games that use a non-standard memory manager. That was a thing in the early 1990s, but most of those games (Ultima 7 etc) don't need intelligent mode anyway. So missing hardware intelligent mode isn't usually a dealbreaker. Of course it's very, very nice to have, so if it's available for an acceptable price, grab it 😀

Also note that UART MPU-401 MIDI is rock-solid on ESS1688 onward, but ESS688 needs a TSR and is hit and miss at best.

I'll have to see which cards I have in my box for sound. Would this be a good choice for video? Especially if I wanted to play need for speed 1-high stakes?

Enchurito wrote on 2021-10-04, 23:59:

Would this be a good choice for video? Especially if I wanted to play need for speed 1-high stakes?

That Virge is an excellent graphics card for DOS games. High compatibility, good performance in 2D and lastly S3D for games that support it (e.g. Terminal Velocity and Tomb Raider).

However, if you want to play later Win9x 3D accelerated games, you need something much more powerful, like a Voodoo3 or a TNT2. Even with those graphics cards, such games wouldn't run particularly well on a Pentium MMX 200. That CPU tops out around 1997-98. For anything later than that, you want a Pentium II or better.

So I looked through my sound card collection and this is what I found.
An ESS that has 1868f on the chip and 1853L/1857L on the board (this was in the 486 acer when I got it).
As far as creative cards I have CT4520, CT4500, CT2940 (this one is extremely dirty and might not work). I also have some soundblaster live cards, and an audigy 2 but they would be too new for this project.
I also found a Media Vision pas16sl model 650-0032, this has a yamaha opl chip on it. As far as condition, this one is nearly flawless and was sitting new in a bag along with a sony cd drive and the cable to hook them to each other.
Which would be the best choice?

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-10-05, 01:03:

Enchurito wrote on 2021-10-04, 23:59:

Would this be a good choice for video? Especially if I wanted to play need for speed 1-high stakes?

That Virge is an excellent graphics card for DOS games. High compatibility, good performance in 2D and lastly S3D for games that support it (e.g. Terminal Velocity and Tomb Raider).

However, if you want to play later Win9x 3D accelerated games, you need something much more powerful, like a Voodoo3 or a TNT2. Even with those graphics cards, such games wouldn't run particularly well on a Pentium MMX 200. That CPU tops out around 1997-98. For anything later than that, you want a Pentium II or better.

Thank you for the info on the diamond card. I'll probably buy it for this project then.
I have an athlon 1ghzish (pentium 3 equivilant Socket A) that I plan to use with an AGP card of some sort for the windows 98 era. But that is a different project. I have an ATI Rage Fury Pro I will probably use for that.

Here is the media vision card.

Enchurito wrote on 2021-10-05, 01:31:

So I looked through my sound card collection and this is what I found.

For a hassle-free DOS gaming experience, go with the ESS 1868F. Clean output, excellent compatibility, no MPU-401 bugs, very agreeable FM synthesis (ESFM), extremely easy to configure and get running.

Those Creative cards are decent as well, but they use CQM for FM synthesis and suffer from various bugs. On the plus side, they have SB16 compatibility and "just work" when properly configured. IMO, they are more suited for later DOS games ('95 and up).

SBLive and Audigy cards are a good choice for Win9x gaming, but their DOS compatibility is lackluster. Like you said, they are better used in a more powerful system.

PAS16 is the most interesting choice though. I don't have any personal experience with that card, but it seems to have a great feature set. AFAIK, one downside is that you only get SB compatibility (instead of SBPro) for games that don't support the PAS16 directly.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-10-05, 02:24:

For a hassle-free DOS gaming experience, go with the ESS 1868F. Clean output, excellent compatibility, no MPU-401 bugs, very agr […]
Show full quote

Enchurito wrote on 2021-10-05, 01:31:

So I looked through my sound card collection and this is what I found.

For a hassle-free DOS gaming experience, go with the ESS 1868F. Clean output, excellent compatibility, no MPU-401 bugs, very agreeable FM synthesis (ESFM), extremely easy to configure and get running.

Those Creative cards are decent as well, but they use CQM for FM synthesis and suffer from various bugs. On the plus side, they have SB16 compatibility and "just work" when properly configured. IMO, they are more suited for later DOS games ('95 and up).

SBLive and Audigy cards are good choice for Win9x gaming, but their DOS compatibility is lackluster. Like you said, they are better used in a more powerful system.

PAS16 is the most interesting choice though. I don't have any personal experience with that card, but it seems to have a great feature set. AFAIK, one downside is that you only get SB compatibility (instead of SBPro) for games that don't support the PAS16 directly.

I'm tempted to at least try the PAS16SL simply because it is nearly new, has the matching Sony drive. Also has a real OPL (not sure which one) and because it is weird. The model you found online seems to have generic scsi where this one has some special connector for my sony drive.

Enchurito wrote on 2021-10-05, 01:46:

Here is the media vision card.

You need a better camera / smartphone before building up this DOS/Win9x hybrid, pal. 😅

dormcat wrote on 2021-10-05, 02:32:

Enchurito wrote on 2021-10-05, 01:46:

Here is the media vision card.

You need a better camera / smartphone before building up this DOS/Win9x hybrid, pal. 😅

Yes it was a crappy shot with my crappy phone without flash like 10 minutes before the sunset. I'll do it better later.

As Joseph said, the ES1868 is exactly what the doctor ordered. But yes you should definitely have a play with the PAS16 also. @scorp recently did a very excellent video on them, which is a great companion to the Nerdly Pleasures article Joseph linked, and well worth the 27 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7P8anriPbA

Unfortunately they're not really a viable card for MIDI, so long term you would need to pair it with a PC MIDI card.

Enchurito wrote on 2021-10-05, 01:31:

So I looked through my sound card collection and this is what I found.
An ESS that has 1868f on the chip and 1853L/1857L on the board (this was in the 486 acer when I got it).

This should be the first card. As already stated, it's bug- and hassle-free SBPro2 and MPU-401. Just init the PnP (Unisound...) and go.

All you're missing is real OPL3 (although ESFM is well-liked and sounds 'close enough' for most purposes) and 16b sound with better compatibility than AudioDrive (which few titles supported)

As far as creative cards I have CT4520, CT4500, CT2940 (this one is extremely dirty and might not work).

The CT45xx cards are interesting as a second card as they give you AWE MIDI in supported titles and native SB16 support.

I also have some soundblaster live cards, and an audigy 2 but they would be too new for this project.

If you hadn't had the ESS1868 they would have been an option for the MIDI solution, but totally not needed here. Stick the Audigy2 in the Athlon.

I also found a Media Vision pas16sl model 650-0032, this has a yamaha opl chip on it. As far as condition, this one is nearly flawless and was sitting new in a bag along with a sony cd drive and the cable to hook them to each other.

Now that's an interesting card - the card that forced Creative's hand and made them release the SB16 in an essentially unfinished state (hence so many different versions that were essentially prototypes released to production).

The good:
Real OPL3
Really, really good sound quality/low noise

The bad:
PAS16 native support is limited.
No SB16 support, only original SoundBlaster support (mono).
Same MIDI hanging note bugs as on the SB16

I was a bit underwhelmed at first when I tried my PAS16. If support is present, it doesn't sound any different to the best SB16 models. If not (frequently the case) you're stuck with old SB mono. But that's not the fair comparison. If you run it head-to-head with a CT1740 (early SB16 so its direct competitor - and noisy as hell) the difference is obvious.

Which would be the best choice?

At least two of the above.

Despite my sympathy for the PAS16, unless you have key titles with native PAS16 support, and/or you really, really want real OPL3 over and above SB16 support, I'd go for the ESS1868 with one of the AWE64 cards.

You could consider all three, but that could well turn into a resource hell, forcing you to use unusual settings not supported by most games.

dormcat wrote on 2021-10-04, 03:01:

With cache toggling via BIOS the system can run just about all DOS games except the some really old XT-era games like the original DOS version of Tetris.

That's odd, Spectrum Holobyte version? I remember running that on turbo XTs and 286, so I didn't think it was that tweaky for speed.

BitWrangler wrote on 2021-10-05, 16:01:

That's odd, Spectrum Holobyte version? I remember running that on turbo XTs and 286, so I didn't think it was that tweaky for speed.

Yes, the one with Mathias Rust's Reims Cessna F172P towing the "Play Tetris!" banner across the screen.

With both internal and external caches disabled (turning the P233MMX into 386-40) and autoexec.bat / config.sys bypassed I could start the game but it would freeze after selecting level and difficulty.

I look forward to this build. But I am curious. Is there ATX to ata power converters so I can use an newer more efficient power supply instead of something old and used?

Enchurito wrote on 2021-10-09, 19:52:

I look forward to this build. But I am curious. Is there ATX to ata power converters so I can use an newer more efficient power supply instead of something old and used?

Plenty:
ATX to AT adapters, which one do I need and why?
ATX to AT converter and power switch connection
Just Google "ATX to AT power adapter"

You might want to make sure if any of your peripherals needs -5V:
ATX to AT power adapter converter review with -5V

What's the exact model of your Asus MB that has Socket 7? It might have an ATX power connector that could save you a lot of trouble.

The socket 7 was an asus p/i‑p55t2p4 with a pentium 1 200mhz mmx model fv80503200 installed in it.

Enchurito wrote on 2021-10-09, 19:52:

I look forward to this build. But I am curious. Is there ATX to ata power converters so I can use an newer more efficient power supply instead of something old and used?

I always doubt the efficiency promise, they need like 15% load to get above the 80+ line, and such large ratings have to be bought to get anything above token power on 5V that I fear the actual achieved efficiency, and maybe even the regulation on cheaper units, might be pretty horrible. I theorise that there might even be edge cases where filling the bays up with "spinning rust" might suck the same at the wall as a "modern and efficient" flash card for storage, just because the extra draw shoves it over the 80+ line whereas without it was something horrible like 50%. Saw this behaviour on an older 300W ATX when I was messing around with a conroe celeron, underclocking it, and couldn't get it to draw less than 50W at the wall, thought it was some quantisation/minimum on my power meter which was part of a UPS type device, not a specialist one, but then I stuck an amp clamp on the thing and found it was true, for a range of low clockspeeds and low core voltages, with only 5W graphics card and onboard hardware disabled it just hung at more or less 50W. 50W at idle, 50W at full load, 50W when I cranked it up a bit, forget where the threshold was, but it was not a lot below stock speed/volts for that CPU which was a bit of a power sipper anyway, 30W max IIRC, but it should have been at like 7W with everything turned down and idling, the board shoulda done about 10 with a lot disabled at low FSB. But if I stuck an up to the minute efficient PSU in there, I'd probably have to get a 500W that's about a minimum right for name brand 80 plus gold? Maybe in theory 5-10% better peak efficiency but draw would be even further off the bottom of the curve even if it kicked in by 10% load instead of 15. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if it sucked 50W at the wall just the same on that configuration.