VOGONS


Reply 160 of 229, by God Of Gaming

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I've seen people run windows 98 on core i5s even. Granted with no official mobo drivers available its a bit harder to do, but certainly doable. When there's a will, there's a way. In fact I bet someone gonna figure out a way to make it work on alder lake

1999 Dream PC project | 2001 Dream PC project | 2003 Dream PC project

Reply 161 of 229, by vinxi2

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Ok guys, let's get to the "Meanwhile ""Cheap"" GPU" showdown, "let's make Win98 a priority for now" edition.
We have: (please also look at the capacitors or at the "general condition" of the GPU)

- Her Majesty the FX5200 that *should* be 128bit, it seems new old stock 2nd image (26€)

- MX440 64MB (17€)

- FX5500 256 MB (33€)

- FX5600 128MB (21€) + this heatsink I guess.

- FX5700 LE 256 MB (27€) + that heatsink too

- FX5700LE 256MB, new old stock (43€) + that heatsink

- Radeon 9600 PRO 256 MB (25€) - But we say bye bye to table fog and 8bit paletted texture

- 6200 256MB new (28€) - Same as above

Pretty horrible deals and random prices. You can also say "none of above" and put something in. 🤣
I want to quote @God of gaming when he/she said that this "passion is doomed".

To view my life simply open ebay.it or subito.it and search.

Edit: I'm just wondering "how people did back then" with the Radeon(s) that did not support table fog and 8bit paletted textures. ATI didn't have a failure business.

Last edited by vinxi2 on 2021-11-08, 10:00. Edited 8 times in total.

Reply 162 of 229, by Sombrero

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vinxi2 wrote on 2021-11-08, 09:09:
Ok guys, let's get to the "Meanwhile ""Cheap"" GPU shodown". We have: […]
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Ok guys, let's get to the "Meanwhile ""Cheap"" GPU shodown". We have:

- Her Majesty the FX5200 that *should* be 128bit, it seems new old stock (26€)

- FX5500 256 MB (33€)

- FX5600 128MB (21€) + this heatsink I guess.

- FX5700 LE 256 MB (27€) + that heatsink too

- FX5700LE 256MB, new old stock (43€) + that heatsink

- Radeon 9600 PRO 256 MB (25€) - But we say bye bye to table fog and 8bit paletted texture

- 6200 256MB new (28€) - Same as above

Pretty horrible deals. You can also say "none of above" and put something in. 🤣
I want to quote @God of gaming when he/she said that this "passion is doomed".

One thing you should keep in mind, the most recommended nvidia driver for Win98 compatibility is 45.23 and it only supports the following FX models:
- GeForce FX 5900 Ultra
- GeForce FX 5900
- GeForce FX 5800 Ultra
- GeForce FX 5800
- GeForce FX 5600 Ultra
- GeForce FX 5600
- GeForce FX 5600 SE
- GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
- GeForce FX 5200

Support for 5900 XT, 5700 and 5500 came with 5x.xx drivers that are not as compatible and could have issues with some games, at least so I've understood. No idea how big of a deal this is, but something to keep in mind.

EDIT:

vinxi2 wrote on 2021-11-08, 09:09:

Edit: I'm just wondering "how people did back then" with the Radeon(s) that did not support table fog and 8bit paletted textures. ATI didn't have a failure business.

I got a Radeon 8500 around 2002 and a Radeon 9800 pro late 2003. Can't definitely speak for all, but the way I did it was I HAD NO IDEA I was missing some feature and I can't imagine I was the only one. I happily played System Shock 2 (one of my favs) and possibly others that used 8bit palletted textures/table fog, I certainly never noticed anything that made me wonder does this look like it's supposed to look.

DOS/Win98SE (1990-1999): Pentium III 650MHz / Voodoo 3 3000 / Sound Blaster Audigy 2 / Orpheus
WinXP (2000-2006): Pentium 4 HT 651 3.4GHz (65W) / 9800 GTX+ / Sound Blaster X-Fi
Win7/10 (2007-2016): Xeon E3-1230 v3 / GTX 1660 Ti / Sound Blaster Z

Reply 163 of 229, by vinxi2

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Sombrero wrote on 2021-11-08, 09:28:

I got a Radeon 8500 around 2002 and a Radeon 9800 pro late 2003. Can't definitely speak for all, but the way I did it was I HAD NO IDEA I was missing some feature and I can't imagine I was the only one.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Of course it's not wrong to say that ATI and GeForce 6xxxx didn't support them but we don't know the real deal of it other then those 3 games on Vogons Wiki or Thief 2 night sky or Shadow of the empire fog.

With 2002/2004 ATI 9000 or GeForce 6000 most people weren't really focusing on older Windows 98 games, but ATI NEVER supported them, so only GeForce owners saw the fog in for eg, Thief 2 (2000) or Shadow of the empire (1996). And ATI weren't certainly put out of the business for that. I'm also wondering if wrappers like dgVoodoo2/nglide can help with those.

Also in that post, @Joseph_Joestar said that the stars in Thief 2 were correctly shown in ATI and not in GeForce, but the fog was correctly seen in GeForce and not ATI. These are helpful hints that show how complicated this topic is.

Is there anyone with an ATI card like a 9600 or a GeForce 6200 that can see how those games look for the sake of science?

Support for 5900 XT, 5700 and 5500 came with 5x.xx drivers that are not as compatible and could have issues with some games

If this is the case, we should also exclude all 6xxxx series since they won't use older drivers either and also the (in this thread as well) venerable 5900 XT.

Since 5600/5800 seem nowhere to be found, basically the infamous 5200 64/128bit/Ultra is the only "available" FX card with support for older drivers or we should "downgrade" to 4 series. That's also why that question above start to rise again since a 9600 Pro 256 MB at 25€ it's not a "bad GPU" and can run from Quake 3 in Win98 (so it is way powerful for older games) up to something like Half Life 2 with "no problem".

Reply 164 of 229, by vinxi2

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vinxi2 wrote on 2021-11-08, 09:09:

- Radeon 9600 PRO 256 MB (25€) - But we say bye bye to table fog and 8bit paletted texture

Guys I'm starting to think of pulling the trigger on this one, it's powerful enough, silent, "cheap", and would see what it can do with Windows 98 older games I'm interested to.

What do you think?

Or otherwise that unused FX5200 that should be 128bit or the FX5500.

Reply 165 of 229, by luk1999

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vinxi2 wrote on 2021-11-08, 12:43:
Guys I'm starting to think of pulling the trigger on this one, it's powerful enough, silent, "cheap", and would see what it can […]
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vinxi2 wrote on 2021-11-08, 09:09:

- Radeon 9600 PRO 256 MB (25€) - But we say bye bye to table fog and 8bit paletted texture

Guys I'm starting to think of pulling the trigger on this one, it's powerful enough, silent, "cheap", and would see what it can do with Windows 98 older games I'm interested to.

What do you think?

Or otherwise that unused FX5200 that should be 128bit or the FX5500.

Well, Radeon 9600 PRO will be significantly faster than FX 5200 or 5500. It should also support ATI TruForm technology (in software mode), which makes some old games look better (or a bit weird in some cases 😀).
And if you care so much about palletized textures you can buy also GeForce 2 MX 400 or 4 MX 440 and keep it in a drawer - just in case. 😉

Pentium 4 2400 + ASUS P4C800-E Deluxe + 2 GB RAM + GF FX5700 128 MB AGP + SB Audigy + Chieftec GPS-400AA-101A + Win XP SP2
Duron 1000 + Soltek SL-75DRV4 + 256 MB RAM + Voodoo 3 2000 16 MB AGP + FM801 + FSP 400-60PFN + Win 98SE

Reply 166 of 229, by vinxi2

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Thanks. Since a lot of people were watching it I ordered that 9600 Pro hoping I did a good thing.

The only thing that comes to my mind is that the heatsink seems too small (like firage said in PM), so I don't know if I should upgrade to a larger one. (is it available?) Basically almost all 9600 Pro I see come with a fan but I really hope I can keep it fanless. The sugo SG11 has a 120mm side fan that blows in air.

Another question. If I ever buy something like a Vodoo 1/2/3/Banshee/whatever will I be able to "compensate" compatibility issue with this 9600 Pro?

Let's hope everything really works.

Reply 167 of 229, by Sombrero

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vinxi2 wrote on 2021-11-08, 17:53:

Another question. If I ever buy something like a Vodoo 1/2/3/Banshee/whatever will I be able to "compensate" compatibility issue with this 9600 Pro?

You can't use an AGP version of Voodoo on your motherboard, they need an earlier 3.3V version of AGP and your board has newer 1.5V. You might be able to use a PCI version unless there's also some compatibility issues with the board, don't get one before someone confirms it's ok. Edit: Well you could use the later Voodoo 4 4500 but they are EXPENSIVE.

Good luck with the 9600 Pro!

DOS/Win98SE (1990-1999): Pentium III 650MHz / Voodoo 3 3000 / Sound Blaster Audigy 2 / Orpheus
WinXP (2000-2006): Pentium 4 HT 651 3.4GHz (65W) / 9800 GTX+ / Sound Blaster X-Fi
Win7/10 (2007-2016): Xeon E3-1230 v3 / GTX 1660 Ti / Sound Blaster Z

Reply 168 of 229, by dormcat

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vinxi2 wrote on 2021-11-07, 18:36:

About the CPU support of this motherboard, I saw people using modded BIOS and mount a E5800 but I'm really worried about the stability and "longevity" of the motherboard. I just want a stable and long-life system. Same goes for FSB 1066Mhz CPUs that (if I understood it with my little knowledge) is tecnically considered as an overclock by the motherboard. So I choosed the E4700 that is the most powerful 800 Mhz FSB CPU included in the official supported list that should be plenty for Windows 98 (and good for a Windows XP dual boot).

Yes, that's what I'd do if I were you: for retro systems, stability and longevity always outweigh framerates or benchmark numbers. E4700 could even run Win7 with acceptable performance.

For your choice of graphics cards: as an owner of four AGP cards, two each from ATI (9000 Pro and 9600 Pro) and Nvidia (MX 400 and 5600 XT), I'd say they all do quite well. They are tools for you to enjoy your games, not exactly what you need to pursue after (unless you are collecting them on purpose).

Reply 169 of 229, by God Of Gaming

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Sombrero wrote on 2021-11-08, 18:19:

You can't use an AGP version of Voodoo on your motherboard, they need an earlier 3.3V version of AGP and your board has newer 1.5V. You might be able to use a PCI version unless there's also some compatibility issues with the board, don't get one before someone confirms it's ok.

It's ok, I have a friend with a 775i65g R3.0, that he has a radeon x1950 pro agp (for XP) + voodoo3 pci (for win98) mounted on it, he's been using it for quite a while now and is very happy with it. A voodoo3 can get hot when used with a fast cpu, so mounting a nice fan on it is highly recommended. 3dfx cards are hard to find for cheap nowadays, impossible on ebay.

1999 Dream PC project | 2001 Dream PC project | 2003 Dream PC project

Reply 170 of 229, by Sombrero

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God Of Gaming wrote on 2021-11-08, 20:15:
Sombrero wrote on 2021-11-08, 18:19:

You can't use an AGP version of Voodoo on your motherboard, they need an earlier 3.3V version of AGP and your board has newer 1.5V. You might be able to use a PCI version unless there's also some compatibility issues with the board, don't get one before someone confirms it's ok.

It's ok, I have a friend with a 775i65g R3.0, that he has a radeon x1950 pro agp (for XP) + voodoo3 pci (for win98) mounted on it, he's been using it for quite a while now and is very happy with it. A voodoo3 can get hot when used with a fast cpu, so mounting a nice fan on it is highly recommended. 3dfx cards are hard to find for cheap nowadays, impossible on ebay.

Nice, I just might make use of that on my next build myself!

DOS/Win98SE (1990-1999): Pentium III 650MHz / Voodoo 3 3000 / Sound Blaster Audigy 2 / Orpheus
WinXP (2000-2006): Pentium 4 HT 651 3.4GHz (65W) / 9800 GTX+ / Sound Blaster X-Fi
Win7/10 (2007-2016): Xeon E3-1230 v3 / GTX 1660 Ti / Sound Blaster Z

Reply 171 of 229, by God Of Gaming

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Sadly I do not have a 775i65g, I missed my chance to buy brand new R3.0 while they were still being sold in stores for just 40 euros, surprisingly recently too. But what I do have is an AsRock Conroe865PE, as well as a DFI-ITOX G7S620-N. Both of these can also take a E5800 with a modded bios, and have more expansion slots for more goodies to be inserted, the DFI even has ISA which is crazy. I probably wouldn't use a voodoo3 on one of those though, Im thinking the ideal cards for these would be Radeon X850XT, Nvidia 6800 Ultra, and maybe 7800GS AGP, if its true that one can be made to work with 77.72 driver. Honestly feels like anything less than these would be wasted on such a high-performance platform. A FX 5900 can work just fine on a tualatin p3 or socket A mobo. With that said, FX 5900 paired with a Celeron 420-450 on one of those 775 mobos seems like a sweet combo as well. A voodoo3 imho should be kept to slot 1 / slot A and super socket 7

1999 Dream PC project | 2001 Dream PC project | 2003 Dream PC project

Reply 172 of 229, by luk1999

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vinxi2 wrote on 2021-11-08, 17:53:

Another question. If I ever buy something like a Vodoo 1/2/3/Banshee/whatever will I be able to "compensate" compatibility issue with this 9600 Pro?

Yes, you will. If you decide to have V2 (or V1), you can have both cards usable under Windows 98. Most of Windows games should allow you to choose which card you want to use in menu.

Pentium 4 2400 + ASUS P4C800-E Deluxe + 2 GB RAM + GF FX5700 128 MB AGP + SB Audigy + Chieftec GPS-400AA-101A + Win XP SP2
Duron 1000 + Soltek SL-75DRV4 + 256 MB RAM + Voodoo 3 2000 16 MB AGP + FM801 + FSP 400-60PFN + Win 98SE

Reply 173 of 229, by vinxi2

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IMG-2596.jpg

And guys, we have life! The 512 MB stick arrived before the 2x1GB ones. It POSTs. I connected the monitor via VGA, a K400 as keyboard.

First of all I was able to set and keep the correct date between reboots, so the battery should be alive. Should I change it with a new one since I'm here? The new one is here near me.

The board came with the 2.70 BIOS, not the newest one. Here is the changelog:
https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/775i65G%20R2.0/#BIOS
Do you think I should update it?

Can you also tell me which options should I change?

The CPU temp is 39°C, is it good?

I'm preparing the USB stick like in Phil's video.

Reply 174 of 229, by God Of Gaming

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Keeping the date between reboots doesnt mean the battery has charge, since its tasked with keeping date and settings when PC is unplugged from the wall or theres a blackout. So, pull the plug for a minute and see if it still keeps date after that. Or just measure battery voltage with multimeter.

No need to update bios if it works fine. Dont touch whats not broken. Do try updating if you experience issues.

Temperature of up to 70 degrees is fine, but you have to run a stress test and measure it then, idle temps are almost meaningless

1999 Dream PC project | 2001 Dream PC project | 2003 Dream PC project

Reply 175 of 229, by vinxi2

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Thank you God, the battery WAS dead 🤣

Now we got our first problem. I did everything Phils did in that video, I also created two partitions on the new 240GB SSD in Windows 10 (for the alignment thing), a 4 GB one for Windows 98 and a 10 GB called Recovery, both FAT32, and set the 4 GB as active in FDISK.

I copied all Windows 98 setup files to the recovery partition E:, run the setup and Scandisk hang for like 5 minutes scanning E:, then it appeared a message that said something about a problem reading the last cluster and the drive needing the LBA. (I'm trying to use the Windows 98 italian ISO, so I don't know the exact phrase in english).

By the way, before I quit scandisk it says that C: had no error.

Edit: In the BIOS, IDE settings, there is an "Enhanced mode" for Windows 2000/XP and "Compatible Mode" for Windows 98/ME. I tried to set "Compatible Mode" but it doesn't work either.

Reply 176 of 229, by Sombrero

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vinxi2 wrote on 2021-11-10, 15:44:

Now we got our first problem. I did everything Phils did in that video, I also created two partitions on the new 240GB SSD in Windows 10 (for the alignment thing), a 4 GB one for Windows 98 and a 10 GB called Recovery, both FAT32, and set the 4 GB as active in FDISK.

I copied all Windows 98 setup files to the recovery partition E:, run the setup and Scandisk hang for like 5 minutes scanning E:, then it appeared a message that said something about a problem reading the last cluster and the drive needing the LBA. (I'm trying to use the Windows 98 italian ISO, so I don't know the exact phrase in english).

By the way, before I quit scandisk it says that C: had no error.

Did you use the disk manager Windows 10 comes with to make the partitions? It isn't great with FAT32, the thing can't even format FAT32 partitions over 32GB. You should try some other disk partition/format software, can't unfortunately recommend any since I've just used a 64GB SD card and formatted that with Rufus (which is meant for USB sticks, can't do partitions and will delete any partitions it finds, so no use for you)

DOS/Win98SE (1990-1999): Pentium III 650MHz / Voodoo 3 3000 / Sound Blaster Audigy 2 / Orpheus
WinXP (2000-2006): Pentium 4 HT 651 3.4GHz (65W) / 9800 GTX+ / Sound Blaster X-Fi
Win7/10 (2007-2016): Xeon E3-1230 v3 / GTX 1660 Ti / Sound Blaster Z

Reply 177 of 229, by DosFreak

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They should really fix that someday
https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/04/windows_format_fat32/

DOSBox Compilation Guides
DosBox Feature Request Thread
PC Game Compatibility List
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
Running DRM games offline

Reply 179 of 229, by vinxi2

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Sombrero wrote on 2021-11-10, 17:01:

Did you use the disk manager Windows 10 comes with to make the partitions?

Yes I used the "native" Windows 10 partition software, the only "difference" is that the first 4GB partition was formatted AFTER I created the partition, the 10 GB recovery partition was formatted while partitioning. I also tried to format the 10 GB recovery with FDISK with support for large drives enabled and did no difference.

And the strangest thing is that the 4 GB C: partition is "without errors" on scandisk, it hangs on the recovery one.

Last edited by vinxi2 on 2021-11-10, 18:06. Edited 1 time in total.