atom1kk wrote on 2022-01-30, 23:21:

AirIntake wrote on 2022-01-30, 22:10:

There may be better options (than 3d Pro, or any stick-based thing), for driving games. A matter of opinion.

Agreed. The 3D Pro is my favourite joystick of that era, but it's very stiff and has a short throw.

For driving I'd recommend a CH Flightstick Pro, or if you can find one a CH Flight Yoke with pedals.

But they are all usb. I need one working in dos.

I mean i have all the stuff at my normal pc. The retro is a casual thing. Maybe 2-3 hours a week. Top gun needs a stick and nascar and indy are also playable well with keyboard, but i need one than why not kind of one for all 3.

CH has been making the Flightstick Pro & Flight Yoke since about 1993. The earlier versions are 100% analog gameport DOS joysticks, I own a Flightstick Pro (as well as the CH Flightstick & CH F16 Combat Stick) and it's my second favourite DOS joystick.

Ok maybe but first try to find one and second the prices are unreal. And just for bit of fun its not worth it.

atom1kk wrote on 2022-01-30, 23:32:

Ok maybe but first try to find one and second the prices are unreal. And just for bit of fun its not worth it.

I get most of my stuff for cheap from thrifting, but yeah, that's a hobby in itself.

I tried nascar and indycar with my wheel on dosbox, but the feeling is really weird with the linear force. And indycar und dos box seems kind to have an input lag playing with keyboard and also with the wheel. On my retro system atleast with keyboard everyithing is fine. Dosbox is a nice option but you need to have different versions and fiddeling around alot with the settings, thats why i decided to go for a retro System.

The retro stuff is not really a hobby its just kind of nostalgia for me 😀. Here in germany whe do not have thrift stores. We have only ebay and some kind of craigs list (ebay Kleinanzeigen, this is where my links came from). And rare retro stuff is quite really hard to find.

If you like PC emulation you should look into PCem, it's an emulator where you combine actual hardware.

Wow, never heard of but this seems to be a nice solution, have to give it a try. Is it easy to transfer the data from main pc to the emulation?
Maybe a dumb question but was never in touch with this kind of Software, always heard about vmware, but from reading through the Internet this is quite a complicated solution, so never went deeper into this topic. This was also the reason for the retro computer
So with pcem i could use an usb joystik in dos for example?

I’ve never tried to image a PCem virtual hard drive to a real one, but I bet it’s possible. Edit: sorry I misread. To get data into the PCem machine it’s very hardware based. There’s no shared clipboard or drag and drop or anything. You have to insert a disk (real or virtual) into the machine just like real life to get data onto it.
Yes, PCem emulates a Flightstick Pro and will make any USB joystick appear as a Flightstick Pro in DOS.

snufkin wrote on 2022-01-30, 21:01:

atom1kk wrote on 2022-01-30, 19:25:

Gameport is not a problem for me, i do not need usb

So this one should work under dos?

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/m … ent=app_android

Unfortunately I don't think so. That's got a product ID of 97462, which is the same as mine. The stick is labelled on the bottom as a "SideWinder 3D Pro Plus" and was boxed as a "SideWinder Precision Pro" (with a box label saying "Precision Pro 2.0". The box is fairly clear that it needs Win95 and doesn't mention USB at all. It was a sort of half-way stick where it doesn't support analog modes, but also doesn't support USB. As I understand it, it signals to the driver what it is by having a 30k resistor on the 1st analog input. Then it has some digital protocol over the 4 gameport button inputs. It also has the MIDI Tx pin from the gameport on the connector, but it doesn't actually use that (it was later used for Force Feedback).

I think it was only sold for a short time as MS fairly quickly released the next version which did support USB internally and came with a passive adapter (that was the first one you linked to). As far as I know the only analog mode SideWinder was the 3D Pro (not the Pro Plus), which could switch between digital and analog mode.

Yeah I remember playing a DOS Cart race game with the Pro Plus version on an AWE32 but it may have been through Win98 DOS mode where the Win driver would still be working, can't remember but it was in full screen and not a window. memory told me it was true DOS but might not have been...
There is also the MS Sidewinder Standard that is fully analog and also the original Sidewinder Gamepad that also was. Have their respective readme's which both state DOS, Win3.1 and Win 95 compatibility.
There are also some early Logitech analog but they would probably be more difficult to find...

So tried today the PCem, well... short answer: nice to try out but not really great in speed.

atom1kk wrote on 2022-01-31, 10:37:

So tried today the PCem, well... short answer: nice to try out but not really great in speed.

My 8700k can emulate up to a Pentium II 233 with Voodoo 3 while maintaining 100% emulation speed. If you select too fast a processor to emulate PCem cannot maintain emulation sync and speed get unpredictable and sound glitches. The games you want to play shouldn't require something that fast so you can choose something like a Pentium 166 and Voodoo 1 and have an even easier time emulating it.

atom1kk wrote on 2022-01-31, 10:37:

So tried today the PCem, well... short answer: nice to try out but not really great in speed.

For your casual needs, one of the original DOS Thrustmaster sticks (higher quality / more specialist / better hand shape), or a Sidewinder 3D Pro (more generic but still good quality) will be fine, for your retro rig.

Alternatively, DOS gamepads is a slightly complex/niche area which I am not bothering to go into, for the purposes of your casual gaming requirements. Some other members here (looking @Pierre32) have spent some time looking into those, and might be able to expand about that type, if you were interested.

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-01-31, 21:59:

Alternatively, DOS gamepads is a slightly complex/niche area which I am not bothering to go into, for the purposes of your casual gaming requirements. Some other members here (looking @Pierre32) have spent some time looking into those, and might be able to expand about that type, if you were interested.

At some point I need to do a little thread of the gamepads I've trialled in the last couple of years. But since that wouldn't be ideal for Top Gun, I won't derail this thread with it.

Agree with previous comments that a CH stick is the very best you can get for DOS. But yes, they can be hard and expensive to get. The Microsoft sticks are iconic of course and although I don't rate them anywhere near a CH for quality feel, they're still great to have.

OP, since you just want to have a casual play, I think almost any gameport joystick will scratch the itch. Like a humble Quickshot or even that Medion you found. There are quite a few on ebay if you're clever with your search filtering.

I decided to go for the sidewinder 3d pro. Got it cheap and it should do it.

I tried directly the max, the p2 450 and this was not good, the mouse in windows was already lagging;).

Nice 😀

For general reference and relevance, a nice old summary post I found talking about DOS joysticks + flight simming :
Re: Joystick and Gamepad options for DOS Gaming

NamelessPlayer wrote on 2016-09-26, 21:15:

Can't talk much about gamepads, but if you're talking flight sims for DOS, there are a few ideal setups: […]
Show full quote

Can't talk much about gamepads, but if you're talking flight sims for DOS, there are a few ideal setups:

-Thrustmaster F-16 FLCS/F-22 Pro + F-16 TQS
-Thrustmaster FCS + WCS Mk. II
-Suncom F-15 Talon/Eagle + SFS Throttle

If you're wondering why I don't mention CH Products, it's because they use a button matrixing scheme on the Flightstick Pro and later (and Suncom's SFS Stick is functionally a CH Flightstick Pro sans throttle rotary) to support their hat switches that makes simultaneous discrete button presses impossible. Try firing missiles in Wing Commander/Privateer on one of those!

Just throw in whichever gameport pedal setup you'd like (TM RCS/Elite and CH Pro Pedals are easy enough to find, Simpeds are ideal but uncommon and expensive), and you're good to go.

If you can't go full HOTAS and pedals like a flight sim deserves, perhaps for space or cost reasons, pick up a Microsoft SideWinder 3D Pro.

It can emulate a TM FCS or CH Flightstick Pro + pedals in analog fallback mode (which means you're trading off your throttle slider or simultaneous button presses on a per-game basis), and it also uses a central optical camera + LEDs for all four axes, so you never have to worry about spiky potentiometers. They're also ridiculously common and cheap as chips, easily found in thrift stores.

Later SideWinder sticks like the Precision Pro are not an option because they axed analog mode completely, and thus will not function in DOS.

--

Pierre32 wrote on 2022-01-31, 22:32:

At some point I need to do a little thread of the gamepads I've trialled in the last couple of years.

Please do!

atom1kk wrote on 2022-01-31, 22:47:

I decided to go for the sidewinder 3d pro. Got it cheap and it should do it.

Good one. Yes the price of 3D Pro is good. And the price rises sharply when looking at higher brands.

I mostly use my 3D Pro for Tie Fighter. It is much better, more stable+reliable than the old Saitek dunger it replaced. A good balance of features for casual gamers.

I decided to go for the sidewinder 3d pro

The nice part about the 3D Pro is that it has a switch on the bottom to toggle between Flightstick Pro and Thrustmaster mode in DOS if the game doesn't support DOS digital mode (like MechWarrior 2). Basically Flightstick Pro mode gives you a throttle and hat but you can't press multiple buttons at a time because that's how the hat works. Thrustmaster uses the throttle analog input for hat position instead so you can press multiple buttons simultaneously, but of course you lose throttle. Another nice thing is it isn't actually analog, it's digital optical so it always stays calibrated.

I played NASCAR with a Flightstick (regular version, non-Pro) back in the 90s. I was able to get very focused into that game because the joystick is very precise and gives the kind of control that you need to do well in a driving sim. With most controllers you can't handle the car carefully enough to hit the corners just right and keep the tires at their threshold instead of squalling them (which makes you slower).

I got a Flightstick Pro at a thrift store much later. I'm not sure I like the Pro version because the stick is a lot more top heavy, which changes the feel. The extra buttons might be useful in some games though.
I didn't know these had gotten expensive. They used to be pretty cheap even on eBay.

Anyway I expect the Sidewinder will be good, glad you were able to get that at a decent price.
Keep your eye open for a Flightstick just in case a cheap one comes along. If it makes any difference to the price then the regular non-Pro Flightstick is every bit as good, maybe better (subjectively) unless you need the extra buttons.