sounds about what I've read in the past more or less becasue of the slower FPU and cache on the Ezra. Not sure why 3 sticks are running faster than 2. Theres no interleave. Id assume 1 stick with super low timings would run the fastest. I have a ver 1.7 of that motherboard. Wouldn't mind if you shared the VRM mod if it will work.

It's common knowledge that K6 450-600 is more like a PII 350-400. I have no idea why some people keep thinking its more than that and it also has a slower FPU than a pentium, plus the VIA SS7 platform is slow and buggy, compared to a BX.

VIA Nehemiah overclocked to 1500MHZ should be like a PIII 800mhz.

Warlord wrote on 2022-02-16, 07:03:

sounds about what I've read in the past more or less becasue of the slower FPU and cache on the Ezra. Not sure why 3 sticks are running faster than 2. Theres no interleave. Id assume 1 stick with super low timings would run the fastest.

Yeah, not sure what's going on with the performance difference when all memory slots are populated. Timings were already pretty tight (2/2/2/5) when I tested with 1, 2 and 3 sticks.

Warlord wrote on 2022-02-16, 07:03:

I have a ver 1.7 of that motherboard. Wouldn't mind if you shared the VRM mod if it will work.

The mod is nothing spectacular, it's just a matter of replacing the existing VRM chip (HIP6004ACB), which only supports 1.8V or above, with a HIP6004BCB chip that supports voltages greater than 1.3V (they are available on eBay for $5 or less). I don't have a GA-6BXC rev 1.7 (I only have rev 2.0 and 1.9 boards), but I'm guessing the 1.7 should be pretty similar to the 1.9.

Warlord wrote on 2022-02-16, 07:03:

It's common knowledge that K6 450-600 is more like a PII 350-400. I have no idea why some people keep thinking its more than that and it also has a slower FPU than a pentium, plus the VIA SS7 platform is slow and buggy, compared to a BX.

Yeah. I mean, I do love SS7 for what it is (I love it BECAUSE of all its quirks and bugs). But I imagine that I'm in a minority - I think many people are purchasing SS7 builds because they overestimate their potential. It's enough to look at the prices of that platform to understand that there is a bit of a misunderstanding going on ($200 motherboards, $100+ K6-3+ CPUs). Meanwhile, an Ezra-T sells for $20 and Gigabyte 6BXC boards can still be bought for < $40 😁. And such a build absolutely DESTROYS any SS7 platform, not only in price, but also in its performance, stability and speed flexibility. The only advantage that a SS7 build brings to the table is the fun/entertainment of trying to solve all its problems, identifying the right combo of hardware/drivers/tweaks to achieve stability and decent speed (but, again, that's probably not what the average Joe is looking for).

Warlord wrote on 2022-02-16, 07:03:

VIA Nehemiah overclocked to 1500MHZ should be like a PIII 800mhz.

Yes, indeed. That one is very fast. Unfortunately, it's not as flexible as the VIA Ezra-T (it has trouble hitting 486DX2-66 & 486DX4-100 speeds), but this is probably not an issue for most people.

Nice thread and video capture, I'm impressed that this was captured directly with a phone!

I have a Nehemiah 1.2 on an Advance 10T board (Apollo Pro133T based) that I run at 1.46GHz and it's plenty fast for my Voodoo5 in there, probably slightly faster than a Pentium III 733. Tempted to compare it to your system, but the different chipsets would definitely skewer the results. Plus, I don't have a GF2 anymore.

bloodem wrote on 2022-02-16, 07:48:

Yeah. I mean, I do love SS7 for what it is (I love it BECAUSE of all its quirks and bugs). But I imagine that I'm in a minority - I think many people are purchasing SS7 builds because they overestimate their potential. It's enough to look at the prices of that platform to understand that there is a bit of a misunderstanding going on ($200 motherboards, $100+ K6-3+ CPUs). Meanwhile, an Ezra-T sells for $20 and Gigabyte 6BXC boards can still be bought for < $40 😁. And such a build absolutely DESTROYS any SS7 platform, not only in price, but also in its performance, stability and speed flexibility. The only advantage that a SS7 build brings to the table is the fun/entertainment of trying to solve all its problems, identifying the right combo of hardware/drivers/tweaks to achieve stability and decent speed (but, again, that's probably not what the average Joe is looking for).

One extra problem is the required slotket adapter and low(?) voltage for using an s370 VIA C3 on a slot1 motherboard. You've made an VRM mod for the 6BXC, is it needed for VIA C3 or do motherboards support the required voltages? I mean that is an extra hurdle compared to SS7 where you can just drop the cpu (=K6-3 for example) straight in 😀

janih wrote on 2022-02-16, 09:08:

bloodem wrote on 2022-02-16, 07:48:

Yeah. I mean, I do love SS7 for what it is (I love it BECAUSE of all its quirks and bugs). But I imagine that I'm in a minority - I think many people are purchasing SS7 builds because they overestimate their potential. It's enough to look at the prices of that platform to understand that there is a bit of a misunderstanding going on ($200 motherboards, $100+ K6-3+ CPUs). Meanwhile, an Ezra-T sells for $20 and Gigabyte 6BXC boards can still be bought for < $40 😁. And such a build absolutely DESTROYS any SS7 platform, not only in price, but also in its performance, stability and speed flexibility. The only advantage that a SS7 build brings to the table is the fun/entertainment of trying to solve all its problems, identifying the right combo of hardware/drivers/tweaks to achieve stability and decent speed (but, again, that's probably not what the average Joe is looking for).

One extra problem is the required slotket adapter and low(?) voltage for using an s370 VIA C3 on a slot1 motherboard. You've made an VRM mod for the 6BXC, is it needed for VIA C3 or do motherboards support the required voltages? I mean that is an extra hurdle compared to SS7 where you can just drop the cpu (=K6-3 for example) straight in 😀

There are plenty Slot 1 mobos that have a compatible VRM in their original/factory state. There are plenty native S370 boards that support VIA C3 out of the box as well. Probably lots more than there are Super7 boards even.😄 So no need for Slotkets or VRM mods just to run a VIA C3.

I think Bloodem chose a Slot 1 board simply so he could compare Katmai Pentium IIIs (that only come as Slot 1) to VIA C3s on the same board.

Doornkaat wrote on 2022-02-16, 09:24:

There are plenty Slot 1 mobos that have a compatible VRM in their original/factory state. There are plenty native S370 boards that support VIA C3 out of the box as well. Probably lots more than Super7 even.😄

I think Bloodem chose a Slot 1 board simply so he could compare Katmai Pentium IIIs (that only come as Slot 1) to VIA C3s on the same board.

For many of us, having ISA slots (for sound cards) on these boards is a must and it seems that many S370 boards are starting to phase out those. I did some searching and S370 with ISA slots is not too rare, but finding a good slot1 motherboard with ISA slots is easier around here at least 😀

Garrett W wrote on 2022-02-16, 08:34:

Nice thread and video capture, I'm impressed that this was captured directly with a phone!

Glad you liked it! I'm a perfectionist so... I don't like the end result that much (compared to what I know is possible). 😁

Garrett W wrote on 2022-02-16, 08:34:

I have a Nehemiah 1.2 on an Advance 10T board (Apollo Pro133T based) that I run at 1.46GHz and it's plenty fast for my Voodoo5 in there, probably slightly faster than a Pentium III 733. Tempted to compare it to your system, but the different chipsets would definitely skewer the results. Plus, I don't have a GF2 anymore.

On the Apollo Pro it's quite a bit slower (and the Apollo also has other annoying compatibility issues).

janih wrote on 2022-02-16, 09:08:

One extra problem is the required slotket adapter and low(?) voltage for using an s370 VIA C3 on a slot1 motherboard. You've made an VRM mod for the 6BXC, is it needed for VIA C3 or do motherboards support the required voltages? I mean that is an extra hurdle compared to SS7 where you can just drop the cpu (=K6-3 for example) straight in 😀

No, that mod is just for this particular revision (1.9) of the GA-6BXC motherboard. The GA-6BXC rev 2.0 (and many other Slot 1 boards) already support voltages down to 1.3V. In fact, if a board supports Coppermine CPUs it probably also supports the VIA C3 CPUs (I've tried them on many boards and have had no issues).

Regarding the slotket situation: I've tested multiple slotkets, including two for which I paid $5 a piece and they all work perfectly well. The VIA C3 CPUs are very efficient (they require little power, especially when compared to a Pentium 3 Katmai, for example), so any slotket that supports Coppermine CPUs should work with them, even the cheaper ones.

Doornkaat wrote on 2022-02-16, 09:24:

I think Bloodem chose a Slot 1 board simply so he could compare Katmai Pentium IIIs (that only come as Slot 1) to VIA C3s on the same board.

Yes, but the GA-6BXC does have an advantage, though (which is visible in the video): the FSB clock speed can be controlled through software (softfsb/smb) from within Windows/DOS. This gives you the ultimate flexibility for very fine, granular speed control.
And there is another issue: according to my tests, the VIA C3 Ezra-T does not boot if you set the FSB to 133 MHz (that's because the CPU always boots with a fixed multiplier of 10), and none of the Ezra-T CPUs I have can handle 1.33 GHz (you either get no post, or freeze during post). So the best you could do in this case is boot with a 124 MHz FSB (which would leave a bit of performance on the table).

janih wrote on 2022-02-16, 09:36:

For many of us, having ISA slots (for sound cards) on these boards is a must and it seems that many S370 boards are starting to phase out those. I did some searching and S370 with ISA slots is not too rare, but finding a good slot1 motherboard with ISA slots is easier around here at least 😀

That too, and the GA-6BXC has 3 ISA slots, which is awesome. Not only that, but I didn't encounter a single resource conflict issue with any of the ISA cards that I tried (and I tried everything: SBPro 2, various ESS cards, various Yamaha cards, SB16, AWE32, etc).

janih wrote on 2022-02-16, 09:36:

For many of us, having ISA slots (for sound cards) on these boards is a must and it seems that many S370 boards are starting to phase out those. I did some searching and S370 with ISA slots is not too rare, but finding a good slot1 motherboard with ISA slots is easier around here at least 😀

Finding a good Slot 1 board especially with multiple ISA slots is probably easier than a Socket 370 board with multiple ISA slots. But from my experience both are more plentiful than decent Super7 boards. I thought that the previous post was aimed at additional hurdles of Via C3 on Slot 1 / Socket 370 in comparison to K6-III+/2+ on Super7. Sorry if that was a misunderstanding.

bloodem wrote on 2022-02-16, 09:46:

Doornkaat wrote on 2022-02-16, 09:24:

I think Bloodem chose a Slot 1 board simply so he could compare Katmai Pentium IIIs (that only come as Slot 1) to VIA C3s on the same board.

Yes, but the GA-6BXC does have an advantage, though (which is visible in the video): the FSB clock speed can be controlled through software (softfsb/smb) from within Windows/DOS. This gives you the ultimate flexibility for very fine, granular speed control. And there is another issue: according to my tests, the VIA C3 Ezra-T does not boot if you set the FSB to 133 MHz (that's because the CPU always boots with a fixed multiplier of 10), and none of the Ezra-T CPUs I have can handle 1.33 GHz (you either get no post, or freeze during post). So the best you could do in this case is boot with a 124 MHz FSB (which would leave a bit of performance on the table).

Didn't know about the FSB control thing. Is that exclusive to GA-6BXC? If not do you know of any other boards that allow for it?
Edit: Have you done anything about the AGP power issues on that board btw? Or does it work fine?

Doornkaat wrote on 2022-02-16, 09:59:

Didn't know about the FSB control thing. Is that exclusive to GA-6BXC? If not do you know of any other boards that allow for it?

It's not really about the board, but the PLL/clock generator chip which needs to be supported by the software (such as RayeR's SMB)
The list of supported chips is pretty small:
"It can read and set FSB/PCI speed and spread spectrum on few supported PLL chips: Winbond 83194R-02/04/39/39A, 83195R-08, ICS 9148-26 and CY 28349"

The GA-6BXC (at least rev 1.9 and rev 2.0, which I have) have the 9148BF-26 PLL chip, which is supported (see attached pic).
I'm guessing that there have to be other boards that use some of these PLL chips, but I haven't come across any of them (or did not pay attention to this at the time 😅 )

Doornkaat wrote on 2022-02-16, 09:59:

Edit: Have you done anything about the AGP power issues on that board btw? Or does it work fine?

It doesn't really have any big power issues, just the typical for the era (LX8383A voltage regulator for 3.3V at a max of 7.5 Amps).
I even tried a GeForce 3 Ti 500 on it (which is a power hog) and it works perfectly well, but the LX8383A does get extremely hot with that card - so a small heatsink and airflow for the voltage regulator would be highly recommended for day-to-day use with such a card.

And as for GeForce 2 cards, these have very low power requirements, so they all work great and the voltage regulator stays below 70 degrees C. Anyway, all in all, it's much better than a lot of SS7 boards (some of which can't even handle a Voodoo 3 3000, like my Lucky Star P5MVP3).
I think the revision 2.0 of the GA-6BXC board has an improved AGP power delivery, but did not thoroughly investigated this (as I said, not a big issue on the rev 1.9 either).

bloodem wrote:

(using 3 sticks was a bit faster than with 1 or 2 - might be because memory bank interleave is automatically enabled when all memory slots are populated, though I'm not even sure

Judging by your photo, your memory use high density chips (4 per module) which just don't have enough banks for maximum memory interleaving. Although I don't remember if 440BX even had support for interleaving.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-02-16, 11:31:

Judging by your photo, your memory use high density chips (4 per module) which just don't have enough banks for maximum memory interleaving.

Yes, thought about that too, but I also tested with older Kingston modules (with 8 chips per module) and there was no difference.
So I settled for the Samsung because I have MANY laying around.

Cool! I had been an user of a VIA C7 in the XP days! 😃
I had no idea that the old C3 was useful for anything else than tiny EPIA boards.
They were popular in the CAR PC scene of the early 2000s. ^^

bloodem wrote on 2022-02-16, 11:16:

It's not really about the board, but the PLL/clock generator chip which needs to be supported by the software (such as RayeR's S […]
Show full quote

Doornkaat wrote on 2022-02-16, 09:59:

Didn't know about the FSB control thing. Is that exclusive to GA-6BXC? If not do you know of any other boards that allow for it?

It's not really about the board, but the PLL/clock generator chip which needs to be supported by the software (such as RayeR's SMB)
The list of supported chips is pretty small:
"It can read and set FSB/PCI speed and spread spectrum on few supported PLL chips: Winbond 83194R-02/04/39/39A, 83195R-08, ICS 9148-26 and CY 28349"

The GA-6BXC (at least rev 1.9 and rev 2.0, which I have) have the 9148BF-26 PLL chip, which is supported (see attached pic).
I'm guessing that there have to be other boards that use some of these PLL chips, but I haven't come across any of them (or did not pay attention to this at the time 😅 )

Doornkaat wrote on 2022-02-16, 09:59:

Edit: Have you done anything about the AGP power issues on that board btw? Or does it work fine?

It doesn't really have any big power issues, just the typical for the era (LX8383A voltage regulator for 3.3V at a max of 7.5 Amps).
I even tried a GeForce 3 Ti 500 on it (which is a power hog) and it works perfectly well, but the LX8383A does get extremely hot with that card - so a small heatsink and airflow for the voltage regulator would be highly recommended for day-to-day use with such a card.

And as for GeForce 2 cards, these have very low power requirements, so they all work great and the voltage regulator stays below 70 degrees C. Anyway, all in all, it's much better than a lot of SS7 boards (some of which can't even handle a Voodoo 3 3000, like my Lucky Star P5MVP3).
I think the revision 2.0 of the GA-6BXC board has an improved AGP power delivery, but did not thoroughly investigated this (as I said, not a big issue on the rev 1.9 either).

Thanks for the explaination and your experience with the LDO! 😃👍
My ASUS CUBX-E has got a Winbond 83195R-08, so that info on RayeR's SMB is very appreciated. I never knew about this.

Doornkaat wrote on 2022-02-16, 12:08:

Thanks for the explaination and your experience with the LDO! 😃👍

Don't mention it! 😀

Doornkaat wrote on 2022-02-16, 12:08:

My ASUS CUBX-E has got a Winbond 83195R-08, so that info on RayeR's SMB is very appreciated. I never knew about this.

Awesome! I'm actually curious to see if SMB will work as well as it does with the 6BXC. Keep me posted! 😁

bloodem wrote on 2022-02-16, 12:51:

Awesome! I'm actually curious to see if SMB will work as well as it does with the 6BXC. Keep me posted! 😁

The board is not currently installed in a system but I can do a quick setup over the weekend.
What do you want me to try? I think there's a 1.1GHz Coppermine on the board right now. I'm not sure what other S370 CPUs I have here at the moment. Probably some Celerons for testing mobos? I don't think I've ever had any VIA C3 CPUs.

Doornkaat wrote on 2022-02-16, 14:25:

The board is not currently installed in a system but I can do a quick setup over the weekend.
What do you want me to try? I think there's a 1.1GHz Coppermine on the board right now. I'm not sure what other S370 CPUs I have here at the moment. Probably some Celerons for testing mobos? I don't think I ever had any VIA C3 CPUs.

You don't need a VIA CPU 😀
You just need to test if you can change the FSB on the fly, from within DOS or Windows (it will work just as well with Intel CPUs).
According to the datasheet for W83195R, it supports frequencies between 66 and 150MHz (too bad, no support for 50 MHz FSB).

So all you need to do is run the following command to switch the FSB to 66 MHz:

1smb /sp 02 66

or this command to switch to 133 MHz:

1smb /sp 02 133

Anyway, you get the gist. 😀

As a fellow VIA C3 fan, I'm going to be following this thread very closely! I have an Ezra-T and Nehemiah myself, but I am stuck using the slower VIA chipsets since the MS-6905 slotket has become difficult to find for a reasonable price. We should start a VIA C3 appreciation club 😀

bloodem wrote on 2022-02-16, 14:40:

You don't need a VIA CPU :-) You just need to test if you can change the FSB on the fly, from within DOS or Windows (it will wor […]
Show full quote

Doornkaat wrote on 2022-02-16, 14:25:

The board is not currently installed in a system but I can do a quick setup over the weekend.
What do you want me to try? I think there's a 1.1GHz Coppermine on the board right now. I'm not sure what other S370 CPUs I have here at the moment. Probably some Celerons for testing mobos? I don't think I ever had any VIA C3 CPUs.

You don't need a VIA CPU 😀
You just need to test if you can change the FSB on the fly, from within DOS or Windows (it will work just as well with Intel CPUs).
According to the datasheet for W83195R, it supports frequencies between 66 and 150MHz (too bad, no support for 50 MHz FSB).

So all you need to do is run the following command to switch the FSB to 66 MHz:

Copy code to clipboard

1smb /sp 02 66

or this command to switch to 133 MHz:

Copy code to clipboard

1smb /sp 02 133

Anyway, you get the gist. 😀

Can do, will do!👍 (Please remind me if I forget.😅)
Since the program seems to do much more than just controlling the PLL I wasn't sure if you also wanted to know anything specific to the VIA C3 on this board.
I'll see if I have a CPU here that's likely to run at 133MHz FSB. The 1.1GHz will probably crash immediately.😄

Question:
Are there any BX boards with UDMA66 and 3 ISA (or more) ISA slots?