Tetrium wrote on 2022-02-19, 10:47:

But for me this is convenient as ZIP drive is actually part of the retro experience to me and this way I always have to use only one system at the time. Also it is inconvenient for me having to be running 2 certain systems at the same time since 1) usually multiple retro systems would need to share the same monitor, keyboard, mouse and chair in front of it, so can run only one system from there so networking between 2 systems from the same deskspace is impossible unless I physically carry systems around the house all the time and 2) since I always tend to want to use the same files on multiple systems, it's more convenient to me to save it on external media, label the media and use that media multiple times if needed. I got tons of ZIP disks so if one dies, this is really not critical to me as the ZIP disk is not the backup, it's just transfer media.
And almost forgot to mention 3) often I set up my retro systems in different parts of the house and I don't like having a bunch of network cable everywhere that I will sparingly (if ever) use.

What I gather here is Zip is just part of your retro experience and you like it that way. You don’t need to justify that, however I have some responses to your listed justifications against Networking. Networking and by extension SMB is a game changer and there is nothing non-retro about SMB in fact it actually predates Zip drives. Windows 3.11 supports it out of the box.

Further, for various reasons you described, you are best served by a server in the middle, so both or however many retro machines you want to run simultaneously can drop files onto it. I use a raspberry PI 2B which has a “huge” 256gb high endurance SD card with a samba share. It is powered by my router’s USB port, is fanless and silent and uses exactly 1 watt which I have measured with a kill a watt so it runs 24/7 guilt free.

Want to connect anywhere in your house? I got you! I use a TP-Link N300 when I’m roaming around. Configure it once with your WiFi and just plug it into any NIC and it bridges your WiFi. USB powered too. Or you can plug it into a switch and then you can plug in however many computers you want. Anyway that’s my take.

I saw one of those WAPs for an Xbox the other day in a thrift, plugs into ethernet port, gives you wifi... was tempted, but I've got a number of ways to do that with decommissioned routers etc booting around. What I find quite handy are some old Powerline ethernet plugs I picked up, anywhere you can plug in, you can jack in.

SMB I first remember messing with in '95 so yeah, it's no spring chicken.

I finally got around to building an MS-DOS 6.22 install floppy. Perhaps my ultimate install floppy? So far I've only tested it under VirtualBox but it seems to work pretty well.

The disk is a customised NwDsk with 32 different 16bit ODI drivers and enough space for a few more if any of my cards aren't supported. When it boots it automatically detects the network card, loads the appropriate driver and logs on to the network with a limited user account and then tries to find DOS on C drive. If C:\Command.com doesn't exist (or the drive appears to be unpartitioned or unformatted) then some instructions are shown followed by starting MS-DOS Setup using the e0x floppy emulator. This allows DOS Setup to be run using three floppy images stored on the server - I just press F12 to change disks when setup asks for the next one.

If DOS is already installed then instead I get a simple menu!

I tried to get Windows setup to run from the network but I couldn't find a way of fooling it into thinking I'd booted from C drive - it insisted on updating autoexec.bat, etc, on the network boot disk. So instead all these options just copy the install files to C drive. Once I've copied what I need off of the network I can take the disk out, reboot, install windows and the netware client and I'm done! All with a single floppy disk.

So now 386+ machines running DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.x aren't worth backing up. As long as anything I want to keep is stored on the LAN I can trivially wipe the hard disk and reinstall everything whenever I like.

I've got a vague idea that you could handle that windows install problem through creative use of the mklink command, forcing it to think it was run out of a local directory, when it's in fact linked to a network path... buuuut, I can't tell you straight it's something I'm rusty at and would have to screw around with for ages until it came back to me.

Windows 3.x setup doesn't seem to care where its run from (unlike MS-DOS setup) - it does start just fine from the network. The challenge is when it moves to the graphical stage it tries to update autoexec.bat and config.sys as well as copy some stuff into the DOS folder. Somehow setup detects which drive you booted from and tries to update everything there. Problem is in this case the drive I booted from is A: where as I want windows setup to update everything on C:. I've not found a way to fool it into doing that.

I could just install the network client first then install windows over the network while booted from C drive. But the network client has windows integration (graphical login screen, etc) so I'd have to reinstall the network client once windows was installed to get that. So in the end I decided its easer to just copy the entire windows installer over to C drive and install windows before getting the machine onto the network.

NyLan wrote on 2022-02-24, 10:32:

I just installed True Image 8 Personal on my IBM A20M to test. It creates another partition to backup images and add a "Startup utility manager". You can press F11 to launch it. Then you can recover the computer.
I read on Wiki that Version 9 is the last one to support Windows98. Later version will probably work using boot CD like Horun explained before.

I found this Version 8 Personal edition on Archive.org on a DVD Magazine but it's difficult to find version 9. And can't find any "pro" version.

Yeah I have that same version 8 plus another v8 Personal that I bought. Also have v10, 11, 12, 13, etc.
One thing: Once you create the rescue media you can use that on older DOS, Win9x, etc. You do not have to install the app to use it as long as you can boot from CD!
Also Checked archives and Acronis wiped most all the old versions off their server January 2021.... we are too late on v9 as an example:
http://download.acronis.com:80/trueimage9.0_s_en.exe Dec 7, 2005 - Jan 26, 2021
http://download.acronis.com:80/trueimage9.0_d_en.exe Dec 12, 2005 - Sep 6, 2021
http://download.acronis.com:80/trial/trueimage9.0_d_en.exe Dec 15, 2005 - Jan 26, 2021

added: found the trial version of v9.0 on an old archive but have not tested it..........my v10 is corrupt pffft...
need PC Hoarder Patrol to do some digging (he has tricks that turn up stuff that no one else can ;p )

Horun wrote on 2022-02-25, 01:45:

Yeah I have that same version 8 plus another v8 Personal that I bought. Also have v10, 11, 12, 13, etc. One thing: Once you c […]
Show full quote

NyLan wrote on 2022-02-24, 10:32:

I just installed True Image 8 Personal on my IBM A20M to test. It creates another partition to backup images and add a "Startup utility manager". You can press F11 to launch it. Then you can recover the computer.
I read on Wiki that Version 9 is the last one to support Windows98. Later version will probably work using boot CD like Horun explained before.

I found this Version 8 Personal edition on Archive.org on a DVD Magazine but it's difficult to find version 9. And can't find any "pro" version.

Yeah I have that same version 8 plus another v8 Personal that I bought. Also have v10, 11, 12, 13, etc.
One thing: Once you create the rescue media you can use that on older DOS, Win9x, etc. You do not have to install the app to use it as long as you can boot from CD!
Also Checked archives and Acronis wiped most all the old versions off their server January 2021.... we are too late on v9 as an example:
http://download.acronis.com:80/trueimage9.0_s_en.exe Dec 7, 2005 - Jan 26, 2021
http://download.acronis.com:80/trueimage9.0_d_en.exe Dec 12, 2005 - Sep 6, 2021
http://download.acronis.com:80/trial/trueimage9.0_d_en.exe Dec 15, 2005 - Jan 26, 2021

added: found the trial version of v9.0 on an old archive but have not tested it..........my v10 is corrupt pffft...
need PC Hoarder Patrol to do some digging (he has tricks that turn up stuff that no one else can ;p )

digging into archive.org I've been able to found some files. The Acronis site was a mess, forcing people to register to download files hence the robot missed a lot.
I've been able to download :

trueimage8.0_d_en.exe
trueimage8.0_s_en.exe
trueimageserver8.0_d_en.exe
trueimageserver8.0_s_en.exe
trueimage9.0_d_en.exe

Still wondering the difference between d and s files.

Edit : Ok, D is for Demo...
Also found TrueImage10.0_s_en.exe

trueimage8.0_s_en.exe is the "standard" edition and I installed it on a computer to compare with the "Personal" edition (trueimage8_p_en.exe). It basically add clone feature and task scheduler. So for my use the Personal one is doing the job.

Uploaded files I found on Archive.org

https://archive.org/details/true-image-8-9-10_202202

My scheme is messy and weird, I'll admit...

First off, only a few of my vintage machines have sub 40GB HDDs in them (Tandy 1000, 286, Compaq DeskPro), so the "big drive" (mostly 486s) machines have partial protection by having the software and installers and all that stored on the other 30-60 GB of Hard Disk I have left (I do 4 partitions - OSDISK, APPS, GAMES, MISC) so wiping and reloading or even changing FAT-32 compatible O/S is a piece of cake without disturbing anything I would otherwise risk losing.

The next layer I have is a 1TB External that I tend to store everything I download, buy, have in big box, or whatever else - on, though I need to do some spring cleaning on that drive, I connect it to all of my machines.

Then there's the Linux Box I'm typing this on, a Dell Precision T5400 dual Xeon unit with 16GB of RAM, a 16GB SSD for the O/S, and a huge 3 Terabyte drive from a dead server in it. That 3TB drive is where most of my software lives in Zipped/RAR/ISO format, and so do files I want to keep. The reason is because ALL of my vintage boxes have mTCP with FTPSRV on them and I find transfers more reliable if I just do one big honkin file rather than a bunch of tiny ones, and it prevents file corruption. So on the vintage box, I just boot to DOS, load FTPSRV, and push and pull stuff from the Xeon using FileZilla - getting around the SMB 1.0 problem entirely. Sometimes I just make a pile of "transfers" and let them run over night.

Something I HAVE toyed with for awhile is using an old Cisco managed switch I have to allocate a group of ports to a VLAN just for my vintage boxes, and then have that VLAN shared with the second NIC on my CentOS Enterprise Class hardware server that is bound only to a VM running on that server with some old copy of Windows NT, that way I can RDP into that VM when I want to push software and can do it over SMB 1.0 using the network if I choose, or use an FTPClient (I have an old commercial license and copy of WS-FTP Pro for win9x/NT) to push the software to my mTCP equipped machines running pure DOS. The other nice thing about this, I can throttle the ports down to 10mbps or 100mbps if needed. This also would be a GREAT education for me on dealing with Network/Systems Admin level stuff in a scenario that's not on the job taking up work time (ie setting ports, VLANs - I have some other ideas too).

y2k se wrote on 2022-02-19, 02:18:

I use bootable Clonezilla ISOs to backup my Win98 and WinXP PCs to a NAS.

I just did use it from a USB stick and I love it so far. Worked perfect the first time.

NyLan wrote on 2022-02-25, 14:48:

Uploaded files I found on Archive.org

https://archive.org/details/true-image-8-9-10_202202

Thanks ! I grabbed the v10 and will check it out and create a restore media if I can, hoping my original serial number works. That way never have to re-install it ;p

NyLan wrote on 2022-02-25, 14:48:

Uploaded files I found on Archive.org

https://archive.org/details/true-image-8-9-10_202202

Thanks ! My original v10 serial worked just fine with that 10_s and made a rescue media.

You are welcome 😀

Zeerex wrote on 2022-02-24, 16:07:

What I gather here is Zip is just part of your retro experience and you like it that way. You don’t need to justify that, howeve […]
Show full quote

Tetrium wrote on 2022-02-19, 10:47:

But for me this is convenient as ZIP drive is actually part of the retro experience to me and this way I always have to use only one system at the time. Also it is inconvenient for me having to be running 2 certain systems at the same time since 1) usually multiple retro systems would need to share the same monitor, keyboard, mouse and chair in front of it, so can run only one system from there so networking between 2 systems from the same deskspace is impossible unless I physically carry systems around the house all the time and 2) since I always tend to want to use the same files on multiple systems, it's more convenient to me to save it on external media, label the media and use that media multiple times if needed. I got tons of ZIP disks so if one dies, this is really not critical to me as the ZIP disk is not the backup, it's just transfer media.
And almost forgot to mention 3) often I set up my retro systems in different parts of the house and I don't like having a bunch of network cable everywhere that I will sparingly (if ever) use.

What I gather here is Zip is just part of your retro experience and you like it that way. You don’t need to justify that, however I have some responses to your listed justifications against Networking. Networking and by extension SMB is a game changer and there is nothing non-retro about SMB in fact it actually predates Zip drives. Windows 3.11 supports it out of the box.

Further, for various reasons you described, you are best served by a server in the middle, so both or however many retro machines you want to run simultaneously can drop files onto it. I use a raspberry PI 2B which has a “huge” 256gb high endurance SD card with a samba share. It is powered by my router’s USB port, is fanless and silent and uses exactly 1 watt which I have measured with a kill a watt so it runs 24/7 guilt free.

Want to connect anywhere in your house? I got you! I use a TP-Link N300 when I’m roaming around. Configure it once with your WiFi and just plug it into any NIC and it bridges your WiFi. USB powered too. Or you can plug it into a switch and then you can plug in however many computers you want. Anyway that’s my take.

ZIP isn't just part of the retro experience though, it's the most convenient and practical way for me to transfer files between machines. And it has nothing to do with justification and everything with practicality. For my particular situation, ZIP drives turned out to be the most convenient way. I usually use only one rig at the time anyway.
One somewhat exception however was for my LAN rigs, which for obvious reasons were connected to a LAN as these had one sole purpose which was network gaming. I'd sometimes use USB stick with these more modern rigs but the preferred way was to simply download all the stuff that I needed to these rigs directly.
I never saw these as retro rigs, even though they actually were. Later the XP era LAN rigs got replaced by Win7 LAN rigs, featuring PCIe, DDR3 and SATA instead of the older AGP, DDR1 and IDE systems and these ran some games particularly better.

A server in the middle would be highly impractical, it would have to be blocking the staircase or be in the middle of the hallway, so no reason to consider this if I have an actual router with cat5e cables ready to go, only need to put the case down, plug everything in, powerbutton and I'm connected to the net and the other rigs.
And purchasing and setting up a whole bunch of wifi in the house for no real purpose was never even considered by me as I always had a distaste for wireless anyway. Cables just work and are faster and more secure and cheaper.

My older retro rigs have no purpose being connected anyway as their purpose is playing older single player games. Also I never had a LAN party back in the 90s era, so there's no nostalgia for me there either.

I did use to have some Coppermines connected alongside my first Athlon XP 2000+ but after the AXP 2000+ system died I saw the need for faster and really dedicated LAN rigs which got build not long after that.
The 2 Coppermine rigs were turned into experimental rigs of which the Coppermine 1000 actually saw a lot of use and the Coppermine 800 got decommissioned after having been a testbed for Win2003.

It was really a fun experiment, setting up my first LAN and it went through several iterations 😀
But with the advent of internet, LAN by itself has lost most of its purpose as modern games are much more centered on being online. And it's just more convenient this way to me.

@Tetrium
do you have a working with WfW3.11 samba config you might want to share?
I'm trying to geht this to work for days now but it seems impossible... WfW won't even enumerate the shares on my server, even though the shares are public and protocol version is set to CORE...

My Linux server serves up a PXE boot environment which allows selection of several different bootable system images based on user-selectable menu options. It is also running SAMBA (of course).

If your machine has a network card with PXE ROM, network boot it to a PXE boot environment and use GHOST to image it. WIN10XPE makes a great PXE Boot environment if the hardware will run it (and vice-versa). If It wont support WIN10XPE simply build a MS LANMAN DOS boot option right into your config.sys/autoexec.bat. (You will need to downgrade the LANMAN auth in SAMBA to allow this).

PXE booting (if your hardware supports it) eliminates any/all configuration/functional issues with the existing O/S on your machine as you never use it at all. EVERYTHING is loaded directly from the network.

If none of the above works (or is too much trouble) simply make sure your system drives are in removable drive trays with a matching tray in a more modern, network-connected system (and then use GHOST from there). You can also use GHOST right from DOS to send images natively to a second hard drive and then pull THAT drive to copy the image up to your network. Removable drive trays are the secret here. I would always use them in any case as it greatly increases your flexibility should a machine go down or you need to access a hard drive WITHOUT depending on its bootability.

However, having a system which can PXE boot will make it easier to do a bare metal restore should it be necessary... Once you've PXE booted to a nice Win10XPE boot environment you will wonder how you ever lived without it!

https://github.com/ChrisRfr/Win10XPE

audiocrush wrote on 2022-04-21, 23:57:

@Tetrium
do you have a working with WfW3.11 samba config you might want to share?
I'm trying to geht this to work for days now but it seems impossible... WfW won't even enumerate the shares on my server, even though the shares are public and protocol version is set to CORE...

you might consider setting up a win2k VM in virtualbox to host the share

I'm for several reasons stuck with truenas which uses bhyve which can only properly do EFI compatible systems, it's got a EFI-CSM but when you use it you can only connect to the vm via serial console which I'm not sure w2k even has
Anyways would be way too complicated.
I'm basically stuck with modern linux or freebsd.
(Already tried w2k8 r2, doesn't properly work cause EFI implementation in it is too old for bhyve)

audiocrush wrote on 2022-04-21, 23:57:

@Tetrium
do you have a working with WfW3.11 samba config you might want to share?
I'm trying to geht this to work for days now but it seems impossible... WfW won't even enumerate the shares on my server, even though the shares are public and protocol version is set to CORE...

No, I don't. I never installed any Windows 3x version actually. I went either pure DOS or Win95

Ah I figured it out.
Just in case anyone is ever looking for a solution like that, I'll post the link here so people can find it easer maybe:
https://github.com/danmons/retronas/discussions/171