Warlord wrote on 2022-03-11, 05:15:

I've treated hardware like shit for 100s of years, and I have never had anything die from ESD.

Me either .. old or new parts, I still take precautions but nothing as crazy as some people believe is needed, different story with parts I didn't buy however.

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-03-11, 06:24:

Warlord wrote on 2022-03-11, 05:15:

I've treated hardware like shit for 100s of years, and I have never had anything die from ESD.

Me either .. old or new parts, I still take precautions but nothing as crazy as some people believe is needed, different story with parts I didn't buy however.

Thing is, avoiding ESD doesn't need all that crazy stuff. It just needs basic understanding of static electricity. Yes, if you enure a proper, grounded static workstation, wear static-proof grounded jacket, a grounding wrist strap and never ever let any component out of an anti-static bag outisde of this setting, you know you're safe and can prove it in an audit. But in a non-audit situation you get 99% of the benefit from just ensuring your work surface is badly conductive, i.e. wood or if it's shiny, put some cardboard on it (avoids scratching shiny surface too), and wearing cotton clothes instead of nasty synthetics or woollen jumpers. Touch the case of a computer before sticking your hands inisde. Also, newspaper has almost exactly same electrical properties as antistatic bags. Nothing there that requires expense or inconvenience.

As for the "never had anything die from ESD" - how do you know? Have you never had a components die unexpectedly with no visible damage? Doesn't have to be ESD, but unless you stick the chips under an SEM, you can't be sure it's not...

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-03-09, 02:32:

lots of places, especially if the humidity is high or the floor has carpeting, hot dry conditions can also cause static but where that card is sitting it wont ever be an issue.

On the contrary: high humidity decreases risk of static shock.

When I spent two years in southern California I got electric shock on a daily basis: opening door knobs and car doors, undressing wool sweaters, and even when flipping light switches. I had to keep my hands slightly wet and moistened with cream/lotion to avoid getting shocked. I even developed a complex procedure for undressing sweaters: go to bathroom, turn on faucet, touch sink water and then metal faucet, smear some water all over the sweater, before I could start undressing.

Back in Taiwan I got electric shocked less than once per YEAR; only on very cold and dry sunny day right after a cold wave (and only when the cold wave is strong enough to kill elderly and/or homeless people and become headline news).

dionb wrote on 2022-03-11, 09:56:

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-03-11, 06:24:

Warlord wrote on 2022-03-11, 05:15:

I've treated hardware like shit for 100s of years, and I have never had anything die from ESD.

Me either .. old or new parts, I still take precautions but nothing as crazy as some people believe is needed, different story with parts I didn't buy however.

Thing is, avoiding ESD doesn't need all that crazy stuff. It just needs basic understanding of static electricity. Yes, if you enure a proper, grounded static workstation, wear static-proof grounded jacket, a grounding wrist strap and never ever let any component out of an anti-static bag outisde of this setting, you know you're safe and can prove it in an audit. But in a non-audit situation you get 99% of the benefit from just ensuring your work surface is badly conductive, i.e. wood or if it's shiny, put some cardboard on it (avoids scratching shiny surface too), and wearing cotton clothes instead of nasty synthetics or woollen jumpers. Touch the case of a computer before sticking your hands inisde. Also, newspaper has almost exactly same electrical properties as antistatic bags. Nothing there that requires expense or inconvenience.

As for the "never had anything die from ESD" - how do you know? Have you never had a components die unexpectedly with no visible damage? Doesn't have to be ESD, but unless you stick the chips under an SEM, you can't be sure it's not...

I find Carpeting and lino floors with rubber soled shoes the two worst offenders for static, and yea touching the chassis of a grounded PC case is the best way of removing any static you may be carrying, note I said grounded, a PC case not plugged into a grounded wall socket is not grounded.

Static no matter where it comes from needs a safe path to ground and a grounded PC case is likely the safest path.

dormcat wrote on 2022-03-11, 10:16:

On the contrary: high humidity decreases risk of static shock. […]
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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-03-09, 02:32:

lots of places, especially if the humidity is high or the floor has carpeting, hot dry conditions can also cause static but where that card is sitting it wont ever be an issue.

On the contrary: high humidity decreases risk of static shock.

When I spent two years in southern California I got electric shock on a daily basis: opening door knobs and car doors, undressing wool sweaters, and even when flipping light switches. I had to keep my hands slightly wet and moistened with cream/lotion to avoid getting shocked. I even developed a complex procedure for undressing sweaters: go to bathroom, turn on faucet, touch sink water and then metal faucet, smear some water all over the sweater, then I could start undressing.

Back in Taiwan I got electric shocked less than once per YEAR; only on very cold and dry sunny day right after a cold wave (and only when the cold wave is strong enough to kill elderly and/or homeless people and become headline news).

Depends on the humid environment and prevailing weather conditions, I know for a fact that high humidity here with an incoming thunderstorm there is a huge amount of static in the air, same for high humidity and hot wind, so it really depends on where you are and what weather conditions your environment has. (The air here is also high with salt due to it being a gulf and strong on shore winds)

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-03-11, 10:19:

Depends on the humid environment and prevailing weather conditions, I know for a fact that high humidity here with an incoming thunderstorm there is a huge amount of static in the air, same for high humidity and hot wind, so it really depends on where you are and what weather conditions your environment has. (The air here is also high with salt due to it being a gulf and strong on shore winds)

Ah, thunderstorm is another story; St. Elmo's fire is a typical example of high voltage differentials. Here we got continuous drizzle for 5 months a year. 😉

Warlord wrote on 2022-03-11, 05:15:

I've treated hardware like shit for 100s of years, and I have never had anything die from ESD.

Hahaha, I would not dare admit it!

Maybe you're just lucky, maybe it's your usual choice of footware, maybe it's your intuitive handling of stuff - grabbing cards by the backplate goes a long way.

But personally, I also think the risk is overrated.

There's some early CMOS stuff that's really actually static sensitive, on the level of you can't even feel you gave it a spark sensitive. NMOS is a lot less so.

I hate wearing synthetics, so I don't usually build much potential, but particularly in dry air periods, I'll be tapping something grounded every once in a while to make sure I'm not zappy.

Nice some good information here thanks all.

BitWrangler wrote on 2022-03-11, 19:39:

There's some early CMOS stuff that's really actually static sensitive, on the level of you can't even feel you gave it a spark sensitive. NMOS is a lot less so.

I hate wearing synthetics, so I don't usually build much potential, but particularly in dry air periods, I'll be tapping something grounded every once in a while to make sure I'm not zappy.

I don't wear synthetics very often, and I'm always in a wheelchair with rubber tyres when I go shopping. I still get static shocks in the elevator at the local shopping centre! Never feel static shocks at home though.

debs3759 wrote on 2022-03-12, 00:23:

I don't wear synthetics very often, and I'm always in a wheelchair with rubber tyres when I go shopping. I still get static shocks in the elevator at the local shopping centre! Never feel static shocks at home though.

I'm rather sure I'm not the best person for explaining the physics of static electricity here, but as far as I understand it, rubber anything isn't a contradiction.
There's actually this, based on a belt of rubber:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_de_Graaff_g … tor#Description

That elevator is a huge metal door, I assume - absorbing the excess charge instantly.