VOGONS


Reply 80 of 86, by mkarcher

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biessea wrote on 2022-09-29, 18:43:
rasz_pl wrote on 2022-09-29, 17:27:

I usually mention not to drill because you will rip out hole plating, too bad I forgot this time 😒
looks like you 'only' ripped 6 pads 😀 Nothing an evening with microscope, a glass of your favorite drink, thin wire and patience cant fix.

I am sorry guy, but I don't know any other method to pull in a IC whem you have de soldered with the heat gun.

A heat gun can be an appropriate tool to heat up all the pins of an DIP IC at once. Seems like you managed the desoldering process just fine (unless the back of the board is completely burned). To clean the holes, a soldering iron for heating specifically one joint as well as either a desoldering pump, or solder wick is recommended, although you can manage to clean the holes by just melting the solder and then hitting the PCB onto the table, so the molten solder "flies out". Drilling holes into a multilayer PCB is nearly never the appropriate way, but I hope you got lucky this time and didn't get to the internal layers.

Last edited by mkarcher on 2022-09-30, 16:38. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 81 of 86, by Nemo1985

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It's very sad to see that damage to a precious 386 board without soldered cpu, everyone would have jealous of such board, so much effort to bring it to a new life and then... life lesson learned.

Reply 82 of 86, by biessea

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Nemo1985 wrote on 2022-09-30, 09:39:

It's very sad to see that damage to a precious 386 board without soldered cpu, everyone would have jealous of such board, so much effort to bring it to a new life and then... life lesson learned.

I feel just like that. sad, very sad.

I'm not a solder professional, and I tried. I was a step to make it revive, and the feeling now It's horrible. I passed a bad day yesterday.

Anyway, the calm of my master and friend Mkarcher make me feel more comfy, like all is not loss.

Anyway I don't really want to make bodge wires, I don't like that techinique, I don't like for sure.

I read all his message and I will try to understand what to do now. We know where the damage is, I really hope not to have destryed the inner layer with the 1.0mm dremel arrow.

Computer lover since 1992.
Love retro-computing, retro-gaming, high-end systems and all about computer-tech.
Love beer, too.

Reply 83 of 86, by biessea

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mkarcher wrote on 2022-09-29, 18:21:
As it looks now, a lot of traces on the front side are broken. Nevertheless, the board still seems repairable. Trying to fix the […]
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biessea wrote on 2022-09-29, 16:31:

I attach the image, please how can I repair it now.

I really hope Mkarcher my friend can come and calm me, I'm really angry.

As it looks now, a lot of traces on the front side are broken. Nevertheless, the board still seems repairable. Trying to fix the traces will be very tedious, delicate and difficult. If I would get the board in this state, I would not care any more about how it looks, just about that it works. I would just add bodge wires to the back of the PCB bridging all broken traces.

It is good that you used a drill bit this fine. Your board is a four-layer PCB. You see the traces on the top and the bottom layer. There are two (mostly solid) copper layers between them, connected to ground and +5V. Those layers have holes where the drilled holes in the PCB (PCB experts call those holes "vias") are. When you drill through a multi-layer PCB, you risk creating a short circuit between the inner layers. As your holes are so small and carefully placed, you likely didn't hit the inner layers.

So the new plan is:

  • Find out where the traces on the right hand side of U11 should go to. Those are memory address lines from the chip set. Luckily for you, there are two amplifier/buffer chips for the address lines: U10 for bank 0 and another one (possibly U12 or U13) for bank 1. The buffer chip for bank 0 is on the "far side" from the chipset, the new breaks in the traces are inbetween. The buffer chip for bank 1 is likely on the near side. That means you have DIP chips on both sides of the problem, so you can pull bodge wires from one side to the other.
  • Re-Solder U11 pins 10 and 20 only. Make sure you have no shorts between +5V and GND created by that. If you do, look downwards for the emergency workaround procedure.
  • Re-Solder all the other pins of U11. Test the pins for shorts to GND or +5V. If there is a short, give up.
  • Install the bodge wires for pins 2 to 9 of U11 as I suggested in Re: Ehy guys, what is this? AMD 386 40MHZ, Cyrix co-processor, 8MB RAM...
  • Check the traces on the back side connecting pins 11 to 18 of U11 to pins 2 to 9 of U10. If you damaged them by drilling, install bodge wires.
  • Install bodge wires from the the chip that drives the address lines for bank 1 you identified in the first step to U11 pins 11 to 18 as needed.

Following these steps likely will put the board back into working condition.

Emergency plan if you created short circuits in the second step: Unsolder pins 10 and 20 again, and try to completely clean the holes. Remove any copper filings from the hole, e.g. by carefully scraping it with the drill bit until the short is gone. Cut the small pin part of pins 10 and 20 of U11, so you can reinstall the chip without putting anything in the holes you just cleaned. Install bodge wires for +5V to pin 20 and GND to pin 10 on the front side of the board. You can easily pick up +5V and GND at the small blue capacitors.

If you have any questions about the procedure, ask them before continuing with guessing.

I am sorry mate, I don't want bodge wires. Don't want to do all this work, and I don't like how it will end.

It is possibile to solder the place where I have did the mess? Can I add tin, and rebuild traces where they were before?

I really don't like to think doing bodge wires, if it is the only hope I will leave. I will loose that card and I will put in a box, forgettin all my bad and all my sadness in some days.

Computer lover since 1992.
Love retro-computing, retro-gaming, high-end systems and all about computer-tech.
Love beer, too.

Reply 84 of 86, by mkarcher

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biessea wrote on 2022-09-30, 10:42:

It is possibile to solder the place where I have did the mess? Can I add tin, and rebuild traces where they were before?

I don't think you can repair the board by just adding tin (solder). PCBs are build in a way that makes solder to flow away from any areas that are not copper - even if you remove the solder resist lacquer at certain spots. If a gap is more than around half a millimeter, solder tends to connect to both sides of the gap, but does not bridge across. The newly broken traces, the ones connecting to pins 11 to 17 (maybe including 18) of U11 are below the chip if you re-solder it, so you can't add a small piece of wire to bridge the gap after you reinstalled U11.

The damage can be fixed, though. You need to add copper where you Dremeled it away. One way would be to cut replacement traces and pads from adhesive copper foil, as seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3UC_TFikPk . You can just put tape over the hole you drilled, and puch it with a needle after you glued it down. You need to run the foil up to the trace, and connect it using solder. The key point is that you bridge the gap using the copper foil, so the issue that solder won't flow across the gap is mitigated. You need to cut the copper foil pieces carefully to not create shorts. Be patient doing it. Use good tools, like an exacto knife (or a good clone). Use a small soldering iron tip. Use a magnifying glass. Add extra flux (electronic grade no-clean flux) if the solder doesn't like to connect the way you want. Especially with extra flux, solder easily connects where no gap is, and flows away from gaps (removing short). Have solder braid at hand to remove excess solder. Don't start without having the stuff I mentioned. You likely will need flux and solder braid. You can try to get lucky with just the flux that's inside your rosin-core solder wire. Experience is that you need more flux than you get when melting the solde wire, so you will get too much solder when your have enough flux. The extra solder will start creating random solder bridges (short circuits) and is difficult to remove unless you wick it away using solder braid. My experience is: I will likely run into a situation with too much solder. Getting the solder away without braid is difficult even with some practice, so I need to stop working, go buy some braid and continue working the next day. The same is true about flux. Without extra flux, you will waste lots of time trying to get the solder where it should go, you will needlessly burn traces and make things worse. Don't try to fudge around, have flux and add flux.

The PCB holes you drilled through originally were metal-plated connecting the top and the bottom layer. Possibly you damaged the plating in a way that they no longer connect the top and the bottom layer. In that case, use a solder iron with a fine tip and solder the IC pins separately both at the front side (top layer) and the back side (bottom layer). You can perfectly use the IC pins as replacement for the metal plating, but it only works if connected on both sides.

Be prepared that doing this work properly takes a lot of time. If it is your first time doing this kind of PCB work, expect three to four hours. You don't have to complete it in one go. Take a break if you feel the need to. You will be faster if you keep fit during work than if you skip breaks and get tired. When you are tired, you will mess up things that require you to start over. If it takes you a week woring half an hour a day, it's OK. The result will likely be way better than working 4 hours continously without any breaks. You might want to try cheap glasses sold as reading aid (around the +3 diopters grade) to get closer with your eyes to the board, as a replacement for magnifying glasses. The reading aid has the advantage that you still have a stereo image and can see the depth, and that you don't need to mount a magnifying glass using some tool.

Reply 85 of 86, by biessea

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mkarcher wrote on 2022-09-30, 17:24:
I don't think you can repair the board by just adding tin (solder). PCBs are build in a way that makes solder to flow away from […]
Show full quote
biessea wrote on 2022-09-30, 10:42:

It is possibile to solder the place where I have did the mess? Can I add tin, and rebuild traces where they were before?

I don't think you can repair the board by just adding tin (solder). PCBs are build in a way that makes solder to flow away from any areas that are not copper - even if you remove the solder resist lacquer at certain spots. If a gap is more than around half a millimeter, solder tends to connect to both sides of the gap, but does not bridge across. The newly broken traces, the ones connecting to pins 11 to 17 (maybe including 18) of U11 are below the chip if you re-solder it, so you can't add a small piece of wire to bridge the gap after you reinstalled U11.

The damage can be fixed, though. You need to add copper where you Dremeled it away. One way would be to cut replacement traces and pads from adhesive copper foil, as seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3UC_TFikPk . You can just put tape over the hole you drilled, and puch it with a needle after you glued it down. You need to run the foil up to the trace, and connect it using solder. The key point is that you bridge the gap using the copper foil, so the issue that solder won't flow across the gap is mitigated. You need to cut the copper foil pieces carefully to not create shorts. Be patient doing it. Use good tools, like an exacto knife (or a good clone). Use a small soldering iron tip. Use a magnifying glass. Add extra flux (electronic grade no-clean flux) if the solder doesn't like to connect the way you want. Especially with extra flux, solder easily connects where no gap is, and flows away from gaps (removing short). Have solder braid at hand to remove excess solder. Don't start without having the stuff I mentioned. You likely will need flux and solder braid. You can try to get lucky with just the flux that's inside your rosin-core solder wire. Experience is that you need more flux than you get when melting the solde wire, so you will get too much solder when your have enough flux. The extra solder will start creating random solder bridges (short circuits) and is difficult to remove unless you wick it away using solder braid. My experience is: I will likely run into a situation with too much solder. Getting the solder away without braid is difficult even with some practice, so I need to stop working, go buy some braid and continue working the next day. The same is true about flux. Without extra flux, you will waste lots of time trying to get the solder where it should go, you will needlessly burn traces and make things worse. Don't try to fudge around, have flux and add flux.

The PCB holes you drilled through originally were metal-plated connecting the top and the bottom layer. Possibly you damaged the plating in a way that they no longer connect the top and the bottom layer. In that case, use a solder iron with a fine tip and solder the IC pins separately both at the front side (top layer) and the back side (bottom layer). You can perfectly use the IC pins as replacement for the metal plating, but it only works if connected on both sides.

Be prepared that doing this work properly takes a lot of time. If it is your first time doing this kind of PCB work, expect three to four hours. You don't have to complete it in one go. Take a break if you feel the need to. You will be faster if you keep fit during work than if you skip breaks and get tired. When you are tired, you will mess up things that require you to start over. If it takes you a week woring half an hour a day, it's OK. The result will likely be way better than working 4 hours continously without any breaks. You might want to try cheap glasses sold as reading aid (around the +3 diopters grade) to get closer with your eyes to the board, as a replacement for magnifying glasses. The reading aid has the advantage that you still have a stereo image and can see the depth, and that you don't need to mount a magnifying glass using some tool.

My friend, you have a PM

Computer lover since 1992.
Love retro-computing, retro-gaming, high-end systems and all about computer-tech.
Love beer, too.

Reply 86 of 86, by biessea

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mkarcher wrote on 2022-09-30, 17:24:
I don't think you can repair the board by just adding tin (solder). PCBs are build in a way that makes solder to flow away from […]
Show full quote
biessea wrote on 2022-09-30, 10:42:

It is possibile to solder the place where I have did the mess? Can I add tin, and rebuild traces where they were before?

I don't think you can repair the board by just adding tin (solder). PCBs are build in a way that makes solder to flow away from any areas that are not copper - even if you remove the solder resist lacquer at certain spots. If a gap is more than around half a millimeter, solder tends to connect to both sides of the gap, but does not bridge across. The newly broken traces, the ones connecting to pins 11 to 17 (maybe including 18) of U11 are below the chip if you re-solder it, so you can't add a small piece of wire to bridge the gap after you reinstalled U11.

The damage can be fixed, though. You need to add copper where you Dremeled it away. One way would be to cut replacement traces and pads from adhesive copper foil, as seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3UC_TFikPk . You can just put tape over the hole you drilled, and puch it with a needle after you glued it down. You need to run the foil up to the trace, and connect it using solder. The key point is that you bridge the gap using the copper foil, so the issue that solder won't flow across the gap is mitigated. You need to cut the copper foil pieces carefully to not create shorts. Be patient doing it. Use good tools, like an exacto knife (or a good clone). Use a small soldering iron tip. Use a magnifying glass. Add extra flux (electronic grade no-clean flux) if the solder doesn't like to connect the way you want. Especially with extra flux, solder easily connects where no gap is, and flows away from gaps (removing short). Have solder braid at hand to remove excess solder. Don't start without having the stuff I mentioned. You likely will need flux and solder braid. You can try to get lucky with just the flux that's inside your rosin-core solder wire. Experience is that you need more flux than you get when melting the solde wire, so you will get too much solder when your have enough flux. The extra solder will start creating random solder bridges (short circuits) and is difficult to remove unless you wick it away using solder braid. My experience is: I will likely run into a situation with too much solder. Getting the solder away without braid is difficult even with some practice, so I need to stop working, go buy some braid and continue working the next day. The same is true about flux. Without extra flux, you will waste lots of time trying to get the solder where it should go, you will needlessly burn traces and make things worse. Don't try to fudge around, have flux and add flux.

The PCB holes you drilled through originally were metal-plated connecting the top and the bottom layer. Possibly you damaged the plating in a way that they no longer connect the top and the bottom layer. In that case, use a solder iron with a fine tip and solder the IC pins separately both at the front side (top layer) and the back side (bottom layer). You can perfectly use the IC pins as replacement for the metal plating, but it only works if connected on both sides.

Be prepared that doing this work properly takes a lot of time. If it is your first time doing this kind of PCB work, expect three to four hours. You don't have to complete it in one go. Take a break if you feel the need to. You will be faster if you keep fit during work than if you skip breaks and get tired. When you are tired, you will mess up things that require you to start over. If it takes you a week woring half an hour a day, it's OK. The result will likely be way better than working 4 hours continously without any breaks. You might want to try cheap glasses sold as reading aid (around the +3 diopters grade) to get closer with your eyes to the board, as a replacement for magnifying glasses. The reading aid has the advantage that you still have a stereo image and can see the depth, and that you don't need to mount a magnifying glass using some tool.

Ehy my friend, probably you have PM box full, I cannot answer to you, the message stay in the outbox and doesn't start. Clean some messages, I need info for the shipping

Computer lover since 1992.
Love retro-computing, retro-gaming, high-end systems and all about computer-tech.
Love beer, too.