NightShadowPT wrote on 2022-10-22, 15:28:

Hi, […]
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Hi,

I've been upgrading an old Cyrix 486 DX2 66 and I have installed both a Wide SCSI HDD (Quantum Grand Prix - 4.3GB) and a CF Card (4GB) through a IDE2CF Card adapter.

When I tested their performance using Crystal Mark 2.2, I got results that seemed a bit low.

This is the result for the SCSI HDD:
SCSI_HDD.png

And this is the result for the CF Card:
CF_Card.png

To be honest, I am not exactly sure what to expect from both of them, but somehow these scores seem low to me.

I am also surprised to see the SCSI drive performing better than the CF card.

Any comments? Are these results normal?

Thanks

Please provide more details.

For starters :

What brand and model is the CF card and where did you purchase it (could be a counterfeit/crappy one)?
EDIT : Can you test it in a modern PC using a USB CF reader ?

Is DMA enabled (check in device manger) for the CF card and what adapter are you using (not all IDE to CF adapters support DMA) ?

Also, are you using an ISA IDE controller, a PCI one, an integrated one on the motherboard (which chipset and which motherboard brand and model ) ?

darry wrote on 2022-10-22, 18:02:

Please provide more details. […]
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Please provide more details.

For starters :

What brand and model is the CF card and where did you purchase it (could be a counterfeit/crappy one)?
EDIT : Can you test it in a modern PC using a USB CF reader ?

Is DMA enabled (check in device manger) for the CF card and what adapter are you using (not all IDE to CF adapters support DMA) ?

Also, are you using an ISA IDE controller, a PCI one, an integrated one on the motherboard (which chipset and which motherboard brand and model ) ?

Here is some additional information:
- The CF Card is a Transcend 4GB (Compact Flash 133)
- The IDE2CF is from StarTech
- I have tested the same card on my modern PC using a card reader and the scores are much better (from 10x to 14x quicker)
- I am using the IDE controller that came with the computer (it is a Compaq Deskpro /M with a proprietary architecture, including the I/O Board that connects to the motherboard)
- Not sure how to check if DMA is enabled on Windows 98... (tried some tutorials online, but couldn't find one that brought me to the right place - most are for newer operating systems)

Other specs from the Computer:

Processor: Cyrix Cx486DX2-66
Memory: 32 GB
Sub System - EISA

Let me know if any other information would help.

Anyway, are the results I have shown here appropriate for this tech, or is it underperforming?

Normal for Deskpro/M IDE performance. There are no dma or something to speed up the IDE. The performance depends on IDE design.

I know this, by the way, why using windows 98SE on Deskpro /M? The deskpro/m is more best fit for DOS and 3.11 windows. Need to be Pentium 233 or PII and about 128MB to 256MB with AGP graphics for best fit of 98SE and windows games and most demanding DOS games on this. Not Deskpro/M.

Cheers,

NightShadowPT wrote on 2022-10-24, 16:23:

Other specs from the Computer: […]
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Other specs from the Computer:

Processor: Cyrix Cx486DX2-66
Memory: 32 GB
Sub System - EISA

Let me know if any other information would help.

Anyway, are the results I have shown here appropriate for this tech, or is it underperforming?

No, 32 GB of RAM aren't underperformed, I think. 😉

Seriously, though, the CF performance isn't "bad" exactly.
If..
- an ordinary IDE Host Adapter (ISA card) is used
- ISA runs on ~8 MHz
- PIO 0 is used
- no Multi-Word DMA is used

"Virtually all IBM-compatible PCs made before the Pentium were based on the ISA (IBM’s PC AT) bus.
This asynchronous bus architecture uses 16-bit addresses and an 8-MHz clock
and handles a maximum data throughput of 2 MB/s to 3 MB/s"

Source: https://www.electronicdesign.com/home/article … ata-acquisition

The SCSI controller is likely using more intelligent ways for data transfer.

However, access time (latency) in ms might be more important than transfer speed.

A good CF card should be below 10 ms.
1 ms or less is excellent.

For testing, I used to use an USB 3 card reader and HDTune on Windows.

pentiumspeed wrote on 2022-10-24, 16:55:

Normal for Deskpro/M IDE performance. There are no dma or something to speed up the IDE. The performance depends on IDE design.

I know this, by the way, why using windows 98SE on Deskpro /M? The deskpro/m is more best fit for DOS and 3.11 windows. Need to be Pentium 233 or PII and about 128MB to 256MB with AGP graphics for best fit of 98SE and windows games and most demanding DOS games on this. Not Deskpro/M.

I am using mostly MS-DOS 6.22.
Windows 98 is mostly for convenience accessing network shares and to run Crystal Mark 😁

I agree with you that Win98 is not the most adequate OS for this computer.

Jo22 wrote on 2022-10-24, 17:23:

Seriously, though, the CF performance isn't "bad" exactly. If.. - an ordinary IDE Host Adapter (ISA card) is used - ISA runs o […]
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Seriously, though, the CF performance isn't "bad" exactly.
If..
- an ordinary IDE Host Adapter (ISA card) is used
- ISA runs on ~8 MHz
- PIO 0 is used
- no Multi-Word DMA is used

However, access time (latency) in ms might be more important than transfer speed.

A good CF card should be below 10 ms.
1 ms or less is excellent.

Ok, that explains it.

Looks like my SCSI disk will be the fast one in the system 😀

I have another CF Card that I will test to see if its any quicker.

Thanks everyone for all the advice.

Fair enough.

Cheers,

NightShadowPT wrote on 2022-10-24, 17:42:

I am using mostly MS-DOS 6.22. Windows 98 is mostly for convenience accessing network shares and to run Crystal Mark :D […]
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pentiumspeed wrote on 2022-10-24, 16:55:

Normal for Deskpro/M IDE performance. There are no dma or something to speed up the IDE. The performance depends on IDE design.

I know this, by the way, why using windows 98SE on Deskpro /M? The deskpro/m is more best fit for DOS and 3.11 windows. Need to be Pentium 233 or PII and about 128MB to 256MB with AGP graphics for best fit of 98SE and windows games and most demanding DOS games on this. Not Deskpro/M.

I am using mostly MS-DOS 6.22.
Windows 98 is mostly for convenience accessing network shares and to run Crystal Mark 😁

I agree with you that Win98 is not the most adequate OS for this computer.

Jo22 wrote on 2022-10-24, 17:23:

Seriously, though, the CF performance isn't "bad" exactly. If.. - an ordinary IDE Host Adapter (ISA card) is used - ISA runs o […]
Show full quote

Seriously, though, the CF performance isn't "bad" exactly.
If..
- an ordinary IDE Host Adapter (ISA card) is used
- ISA runs on ~8 MHz
- PIO 0 is used
- no Multi-Word DMA is used

However, access time (latency) in ms might be more important than transfer speed.

A good CF card should be below 10 ms.
1 ms or less is excellent.

Ok, that explains it.

Looks like my SCSI disk will be the fast one in the system 😀

I have another CF Card that I will test to see if its any quicker.

Thanks everyone for all the advice.

You might also consider a SCSI2SD adapter connected to your SCSI adapter . I can't say how much faster it would be than your old SCSI disk, but it should be faster .

See
http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php/SCSI2SD
Re: Windows 98 + SCSI2SD, are there any guides?
https://www.philscomputerlab.com/scsi2sd.html
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/scsi2sd- … issues.2285441/

darry wrote on 2022-10-25, 03:50:

You might also consider a SCSI2SD adapter connected to your SCSI adapter . I can't say how much faster it would be than your old […]
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You might also consider a SCSI2SD adapter connected to your SCSI adapter . I can't say how much faster it would be than your old SCSI disk, but it should be faster .

See
http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php/SCSI2SD
Re: Windows 98 + SCSI2SD, are there any guides?
https://www.philscomputerlab.com/scsi2sd.html
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/scsi2sd- … issues.2285441/

That may not be a bad idea... may try it in the future and keep the system SCSI only. Pity about the CF Cards... I guess there is no SCSI to CF adapter (or at least I was not able to find one in my search) 😀

By the way, and for the record, I have benchmarked another CF card (with the exact same image), an "Extreme" with the same 4GB capacity and the results were virtually the same as with the Transcend. The limit is clearly in the interface...

Thanks everyone for pitching in.

NightShadowPT wrote on 2022-10-27, 06:43:

That may not be a bad idea... may try it in the future and keep the system SCSI only. Pity about the CF Cards... I guess there is no SCSI to CF adapter (or at least I was not able to find one in my search) 😀

By the way, and for the record, I have benchmarked another CF card (with the exact same image), an "Extreme" with the same 4GB capacity and the results were virtually the same as with the Transcend. The limit is clearly in the interface...

Thanks everyone for pitching in.

no idea about direct cf to scsi adapter but !
using an AEC-7722 (which is normally ide cdrom - scsi)
modded with the firmware for aec-7726 (ide hdd - scsi) (reasons being 7722 is cheaper, though prices are rising, yet still not as high as the 7726 )
with a CF - IDE adapter attached should be possible.

I can' t recall if I tried it or not, ide hdd to scsi worked, sata-ide to scsi also worked and SD-ide to scsi also worked, those I can recall.

edit: adding links to threads on other fora wrt mod
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcont ... all-file)/
https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/conve … aec-7726.38935/