Shponglefan wrote on 2023-05-08, 15:13:

Minutemanqvs wrote on 2023-05-08, 06:04:

My 2 cents: hoarding hardware without actually using it as an "investment" seems stupid.

What I don't understand is people who complain about the prices of retro hardware while also sitting on a pile of retro hardware.

Prices are driven by supply and demand. If people want to ease prices of retro hardware, then making that hardware available on the market would do that.

Yes, and that's why I would like to see a Vogons trade forum, amongst people who actually care about using the stuff. But I perfectly understand why it doesn't happen, as human nature will still find its way there.

Minutemanqvs wrote on 2023-05-08, 15:43:

Yes, and that's why I would like to see a Vogons trade forum, amongst people who actually care about using the stuff. But I perfectly understand why it doesn't happen, as human nature will still find its way there.

If Amibay if anything to go by, we'd still see fairly high prices for hardware in a VOGONS marketplace.

And therein lies the rub. Even if someone feels that a piece of hardware is overhyped and overpriced, they aren't going to list something for $50 if they think they can get $300 for it.

Don't the 3DMark programs test DirectX performance? What is the point of running them on a Glide card?

Errius wrote on 2023-05-08, 20:58:

Don't the 3DMark programs test DirectX performance? What is the point of running them on a Glide card?

In the end, all the pre-T&L-cards are basically hardware-accelerated texture mappings and triangle color interpolators with slightly varying feature sets. DirectX 6 is an abstraction layer over those cards, so a generic DirectX program can use a Glide-type card, just as it can use an S3 Virge or a Riva TNT card. There is no unique selling point for the Voodoo 5 in supporting DirectX 6, but in 2000, no one cared about writing specific Glide applications, but games targeted either OpenGL or DirectX. For showing the consumer value of the Voodoo 5 6000 to a customer in 2000, a DirectX benchmark makes a lot of sense.

Errius wrote on 2023-05-08, 20:58:

DirectX performance? What is the point of running them on a Glide card?

you just independently discovered one of the main reasons for 3dfx bankruptcy

Prices are driven by a lot of factors. Until we have 1 Quadrillion market crash nothing will change.

Sure supply has steady decreased but the demand hasn't really increased if anything its declined as people in the market got what they wanted already or emulation improved. Prices just started getting really stupid a couple years ago when US decided to just start trowning 1000 dollar checks to everyone multiple times among other things. I actually got a warning from a mod on here for pointed out how that was going to destroy the economy and was told that I was being political and that I actually didn't know what I was talking about.

There are quite a few people around who have a massive net worth even if the markets tank (which they would love anyway since they could invest in the bottom and make more money). Those people buy whatever toys they want money be dammed. If you are into the history of 3d and want to collect them all a 3DFX 6000 would be one to grab and $15K isn't that crazy for the rarity and how influential 3DFX was.

Pretty sure 99% of the people who got those $1000 checks pumped it back into the economy in the form of food, rent, utilities, credit card debt, etc. and not 3dfx cards and original Air Jordans. The trillions in tax cuts to the rich given by then President Trump did absolutely nothing to the economy other then add to the debt ceiling from less government revenue.

$15k....Jesus tits, Bitchin' Fast 3Ds sure are expensive these days.

Unknown_K wrote on 2023-05-09, 06:35:

Pretty sure 99% of the people who got those $1000 checks pumped it back into the economy in the form of food, rent, utilities, credit card debt, etc. and not 3dfx cards and original Air Jordans. The trillions in tax cuts to the rich given by then President Trump did absolutely nothing to the economy other then add to the debt ceiling from less government revenue.

It actually doesn't matter how they spent they checks. When more of somthing is created it becomes less valuable and in the case of money it effectivly devalues the currency. That being said most people saved the money instead of spent it which fueled inflation. The stimulous checkes didn't really stimulate anything and the 1.9 Trillion recue plan fueled inflation. The top 1% pay 40% of the federal income tax in the US and the top 10% pay 70% of the federal income tax. The economy was good pre pandemic and we didn't have inflation.

Warlord wrote on 2023-05-09, 09:03:

Unknown_K wrote on 2023-05-09, 06:35:

Pretty sure 99% of the people who got those $1000 checks pumped it back into the economy in the form of food, rent, utilities, credit card debt, etc. and not 3dfx cards and original Air Jordans. The trillions in tax cuts to the rich given by then President Trump did absolutely nothing to the economy other then add to the debt ceiling from less government revenue.

It actually doesn't matter how they spent they checks. When more of somthing is created it becomes less valuable and in the case of money it effectivly devalues the currency. That being said most people saved the money instead of spent it which fueled inflation. The stimulous checkes didn't really stimulate anything and the 1.9 Trillion recue plan fueled inflation. The top 1% pay 40% of the federal income tax in the US and the top 10% pay 70% of the federal income tax. The economy was good pre pandemic and we didn't have inflation.

You have inflation when the money supply is more than the goods and services you can buy with it. When Tyson foods closes chicken processing plants because workers have covid and the amount of chicken in stores is lower prices go up and you have inflation.

A very small fraction of that 1.9T went to direct payments to qualified people (making under $80K/yr individually and $160K/yea jointly or in that range), quite a bit went to business loans, schools, extending medical benefits, and unemployment extensions. The reason for that was because pretty much all non-essential businesses were closed and all those people who were working became unemployed. You know what happens when millions of people who had jobs don't have them anymore in a very short amount of time, that is a depression and handing out $1400 checks which they will spend as soon as they get them won't even compare to their lost wages or cause inflation.

A funny thing about federal income taxes is 97.7% of them are payed by the top 50% of filers who make over $42K a year. Now you would think the other 50% of filers are deadbeats who don't pay any taxes but you still have state and local taxes plus taxes on booze, cigs, lottery ( I call that the idiot tax for people who are bad at math), property, vehicle, gasoline, highway, school, etc. taxes without which the world would end. Poor people pay quite a bit in taxes just not to the feds and at higher rates then rich people do.

The real reason we have inflation is because oil/gas went up like crazy adding costs to everything we ship which in the US is pretty much everything.

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler … pte_nus_dpg&f=a

Look at what diesel was been doing over the last year or two! Every step of the supply chain gets costs added to it because of fuel prices.

Let's not derail from a 3dfx Voodoo thread to a economic/political topic pls!

Yeah 3dfx cards are getting more expensive, that's no news, prices have been on the rise for some years now. The issue is nobody wants to sell, just collect and collect and collect. I've even heard people saying: "oh I'll sell mines when they reach even higher prices". I'm not saying that is right or wrong, but in my opinion the 3dfx cards can't be considered goods and investment opportunity. They're gaming graphic cards, go play some games and enjoy the time...

aaronkatrini wrote on 2023-05-09, 10:29:

[...]The issue is nobody wants to sell, just collect and collect and collect. [...]

Yeah, I really hate the bastards who do that! 😁

aaronkatrini wrote on 2023-05-09, 10:29:

The issue is nobody wants to sell, just collect and collect and collect.

Plenty being offered for sale right now, both on ebay and here locally. Asking prices are really high though, but they are being sold. In quite large numbers as well it seems.

yeah 3dfx cards are not and computer hardware in general are not good investments. Its not like investing in gold and silver in your portfolio. Gold is always in high demand and unlike paper money governments around the world cant just print more of it. 3dfx cards on the other hand are not high demand, sure theyre no longer being manufatured, but millions and millions were. It was a mas produced item on an assembly line that had a good run. Therye not like adlib golds or obscure hardware that were the opposite of that.

So eventually what happens in when all of the people that hoarded 3dfx cards start dying and were all old farts then. The children that are just like the children today sell the estates and millions of 3dfx cards come to market that no one by that time really cares about anymore. Its a pretty bad long term investment.

Theres actually no evidence of persistent increases in inflation due to rising oil prices, it is merely a symptom not a cause. If gas prices would of stayed at their prices pre pandemic, the difference in inflation would have only been about 1 percent and would of been short lived. Cause of high gass prices are mainly to do with the push to go green and the promise to phase out oil and gas and is the effect of policy. Main danger is not inflation anymore is deflation combined with artificial intelligence increasing productivity in the next 5 years.

can we please cut out the the economic theories of inflation/deflation and the whys and hows and keep on the topic at hand?

yeah 3dfx cards are not and computer hardware in general are not good investments. Its not like investing in gold and silver in your portfolio. Gold is always in high demand and unlike paper money governments around the world cant just print more of it. 3dfx cards on the other hand are not high demand, sure theyre no longer being manufatured, but millions and millions were. It was a mas produced item on an assembly line that had a good run. Therye not like adlib golds or obscure hardware that were the opposite of that.
So eventually what happens in when all of the people that hoarded 3dfx cards start dying and were all old farts then. The children that are just like the children today sell the estates and millions of 3dfx cards come to market that no one by that time really cares about anymore. Its a pretty bad long term investment.

that I agree on. If you want to bank on the hardware investments, my guess is the next 10, maybe 15 years is when you should do it.
If you just collect because you like them (and maybe the perceived value) and don 't actually plan to sell them, good for you 😀
That's my collection and I'm pretty sure that once I die, the sheer volume will make my family just trash it 😀 (I collect certain games, not hardware)

Warlord wrote on 2023-05-09, 16:48:

yeah 3dfx cards are not and computer hardware in general are not good investments. Its not like investing in gold and silver in your portfolio. Gold is always in high demand and unlike paper money governments around the world cant just print more of it. 3dfx cards on the other hand are not high demand, sure theyre no longer being manufatured, but millions and millions were. It was a mas produced item on an assembly line that had a good run. Therye not like adlib golds or obscure hardware that were the opposite of that.

So eventually what happens in when all of the people that hoarded 3dfx cards start dying and were all old farts then. The children that are just like the children today sell the estates and millions of 3dfx cards come to market that no one by that time really cares about anymore. Its a pretty bad long term investment.

Exactly, I always felt that as a non collector 3dfx cards are probably the most widespread example of a novelty in the hobby. They were so specific in their use, and in their time period, that I have a hard time thinking as to why a newcomer to the hobby today would even consider them especially for the price, when for those values you can get/build a retro PC that would more than surpass the performance required, and with a much bigger scope of playable games. These cards do have their place in computer history, but for actual use it's harder to justify the present state of things.

I have the feeling that the tendency nowadays is going more in the way of slightly or even extremely overpowering a build for a certain era to experience everything at a performance that you just couldn't back then. People seem to want the nostalgia itch scratched but without the limitations that were acceptable for us at the time. Sure, you could do that with Voodoo cards but the scope would be much smaller before you hit the ceiling. At the Voodoo 3's launch time it was already behind in some aspects for example. So I would imagine that most people that would want them for very specific builds are the same people that had them at the time. Barring some more serious new collectors, in general it feels like it's a circular market between the same ecosystem of collectors/people trying to replicate what they had that are feeding it, and some new people that were allured by the hype.

We had a Voodoo 3 at the house bought some months after launch that was paired with a Pentium III at the time, and when the PC was passed down to me by my father I distinctly remember having many different problems with newer games from 2000. If a Voodoo 3 fell into my lap sure I would use it in a very specific build, but I wouldn't put it into my "main" Win98SE PC.

andre_6 wrote on 2023-05-09, 17:59:

At the Voodoo 3's launch time it was already behind in some aspects for example.

That's why I originally found it strange that Voodoo 3 cards seem so sought after in contrast to their nVidia counterparts.

Back in the day, I recall Voodoo 3 was generally regulated to "budget" builds, whereas the higher performance nVidia cards were considered premium.

So I would imagine that most people that would want them for very specific builds are the same people that had them at the time.

I have a Diamond Monster 3D in one of my builds for this exact reason. The Monster 3D was the first 3d graphics card I owned, so having one allows me to replay those early Glide-supported games as I remember them.

I never had a 3dfx card in their heyday. I was aware of them, and I can remember wanting a Voodoo 2 at the time.
But they weren't cheap, I was a kid and my parents weren't shelling out the dough as I already had a "gaming PC"
(It was a k6-2 with a SiS 6236..)

But I did purchase some later on when I was getting back into the retro hardware.
I'm cheap, I found some listings on ebay where the seller only knew enough to put photos with bad descriptions.
In short I picked up a V3 3000 AGP for about $20 and a Voodoo 3 2000 PCI for about $25.
This was around late 2016 to early 2017.

I haven't seen anything of the like on ebay since then, but I suppose it is possible deals still crop up from time to time.
Long story short, I like these cards but they simply aren't worth what they regularly sell for, at least not to me.

I think one of the problems is outdated info which somehow stuck and still promoted by various tech related channels like LGR. It was perfectly reasonable to recommend some Voodoo 15-20 years ago, when better options were more pricier and Glide emulation wasn't as widespread knowledge.

Influence is a thing. Like recently, some big channels like Digital Foundry were hugely promoting rose-tinted "nostalgia" for CRTs, with their god-awful contrast ratios, dot-pitch smearing and "superior" scanlines.

To be honest when I purchased my Voodoo 5500 it wasn't the best card out for gaming, but I had quite a few GLIDE games still. I don't think 3dfx cards were ever a budget build until the company folded, and excess inventory was sold off. You could say the original 2D+ 3D cards like the RUSH were a cheaper slower solution then getting a separate 2D card and a Voodoo 1, and the Voodoo 5 4500 was a cost reduced option few people purchased. The Voodoo 3 was still the king of fillrate but was not the king of visual quality when TNT cards has 32 bit rendering , better texture size, and were getting faster in Direct3D.

When I started collecting an Apple Lisa was a couple hundred bucks, people were talking about how an Apple I was going for $600 and shocked it was so much for a useless board. I remember people talking about some Commodore 65 prototypes being sold that were found in a dumpster for maybe hundreds. I was too busy snagging useful stuff like Amigas and 68K macs plus the occasional VLB card lot to bother with that exotic stuff. The prices I paid for what I did hoard would be pennies on the dollar of what they are worth now (unless it was free which was very common around that time). Did I consider it an investment, no, but if I do decide to bail out of the hobby I will probably make a small fortune selling some of it off.