Can't speak to the specific games you mention, but from personal observation (and I think many others have the same experience) once you build a vintage system they tend to multiply, so may as well not compromise in the first place and just do two "ideal" ones...

I think I may as well build 2 of them, but the first one will be an Athlon XP with maybe a GeForce 4 or something akin to that. 2000s games need a lot more and I think I will have to lean towards things like dual-core processors there (I will stay away from anything pentium 4 related XD)

Top end mobile Barton XP and a Ti4200 clockable to 4600 speeds will just about do it, brake it down to 300mhz on multi and FSB and spin it up to 2.5Ghz with the 4200 on overclock settings and you'll play stuff to mid noughts, but not at highest res or fullest detail, or with dx9 hardware support. Via chipset will offer additional speedcheck options.

As I see it now, there is more sense in building a mid-late 90s build than attempting to crawl into the 2000s, and leaving that to a different build. Would a Pentium 3 be the absolute best for that era? Voodoo 3 maybe, and what sound card?

Not really. Its the great gap that has never been crossed. Basically without ISA sound cards, early dx compatibility and cpu slow down controls, your experience playing 90 dos and windows games will be compromised.

The complicated part about 90s PC gaming was that things were moving SO fast. Within maybe two years a PC was obsolete for games, and this is taking into account the extremely low standards of performance we had back then. 25fps felt normal well into the hardware accelerated 3D era, and yet if games ran faster than the developer had expected them to they would break. And that's not even getting into the different sound, music and video standards that popped up and were gone in 6 months back then.

I would suggest making a list of games you absolutely want to play first and then do some research regarding what those games need to run\look\sound their best. Most likely, they will prefer vastly different hardware unless you're only looking at a 2-3 year span. Not all games from 1995 are going to work perfectly on a system that runs games from 1999 smoothly without using slowdown programs or other tricks... and they may not work at all. If you want to experiment with different types of old-school 3D accelerators or MIDI music... wellll... I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but you'll be buried in old (and now rare) hardware before too long. 🤣 The issue with all of that stuff is the different gaming experiences you get with different hardware, especially when it comes to MIDI\Wavetable\FM synth for music, or A3D effects in late 90s games. Much of that stuff cannot be emulated, so hardware is the only way.

This is a very general recommendation, but:
The good thing is that many games from the late 90s work fine on slightly newer hardware, though you may need something like a Glide wrapper, and you may still run into compatibility issues. So, a 1997-2002 system with a Geforce 4 Ti and a fast CPU (either high end Athlon XP as mentioned by others, or something slightly newer\faster) is probably a good bet. For games newer than that you're better off with something that can breeze through DirectX9 games while also supporting hardware accelerated DirectSound3D for 3D audio (meaning, Windows XP... Vista+ dropped that). I haven't done a lot of testing in this area, but I would think that something with a DX10 or even DX11 or DX12 level GPU that has Windows XP drivers should run most games, while some will obviously have compatibility issues (hopefully they're old enough to be okay on your next oldest machine). Using the oldest drivers possible for the GPU helps.

So then, you just need to figure out what you want to play from before 1997 and build your first DOS\Win9x PC with the most affordable parts you can find that fit that time period. I say this because you don't want to spend an arm and a leg on a bunch of stuff for mid-90s gaming based on recommendations. Guaranteed, one of the games you want to play just won't run well for some reason and you'll find out it actually prefers some other (probably cheap\free) hardware. Best start cheap and if you end up wanting the more niche hardware for a specific game\experience, you can get it as you find it.

Best advice I can offer. 😀

I see. I think nonetheless I will go with a Pentium3/Voodoo3 setup as this is what I think I will get the most out of. The parts don't seem very expensive but being covered in old hardware doesn't seem so bad for me XD. If it gives me issues I can make a different build, but I think I will be fine. There's no nostalgia factor driving anything here (I'm 14) but I'd just like to play old games on real hardware and be able to experiment with W9x/2k and Linux on the machine, I could always buy different parts and swap them out if necessary but I know for a lot of games I want to play it should work, and if a game or program is FUBAR'd I can find a patch online or mess with the games myself.
For DOS gaming I am not really sure if I'd like to enter that mess, I love Duke 3D and Doom and stuff, will those cause issues and for Wolf 3D, and does a SB16 compatible card also mean it can play AdLib sound?
And finally, SB Live or Aureal Vortex 2? Are either of these SB16 compatible?
Sorry if this is a load of questions but I would like to know a lot more about this topic than I do

If I'm honest with myself I could get away with 2 PC's to cover this era.
The P3 600 GF2MX & Voodoo 2SLI covers 99% of my dos/win9x gaming requirements. I do have a ISA sound card for dos games.
Games that start to struggle ie GTA3 are better off on my LGA775 XP build with a GTX590 anyway.

Your games library will no doubt be different to mine, but I would think a P3 and a "powerful" XP build will be ok at least for starting out.

Win98 is fine for dos gaming. I just really really recommend getting something that allows you to get a ISA sound card as this will make life so much easier. (eg a P3 Slot 1 system)
Anything ISA that is sound blaster compatible will support all the various methods games want to make noise be it Adlib or whatever. Some better then others but the big brands like Creative, ESS, Yamaha are safe bets.

Both the SB Live and Vortex 2 have Sound blaster emulation, the important difference is emulation and neither are great which is why it's recommended to get ISA card instead and keep the PCI card just for windows

Thank you for the information, the issue now is which Pentium 3 to actually get. I want Tualatin and they're in my price range, but it seems like I can't find a mobo with ISA that supports Tualatin, they all say they support up to Coppermine which is confusing because I see the Korean dude on Ebay selling them with the adapter, what mobos does that adapter make the CPU compatible with? Does it, for example make it compatible with the i440BX as mobos on that chipset seem to have at least a single ISA slot?

bobsmith wrote on 2023-03-16, 14:17:

Thank you for the information, the issue now is which Pentium 3 to actually get. I want Tualatin and they're in my price range, but it seems like I can't find a mobo with ISA that supports Tualatin, they all say they support up to Coppermine which is confusing because I see the Korean dude on Ebay selling them with the adapter, what mobos does that adapter make the CPU compatible with? Does it, for example make it compatible with the i440BX as mobos on that chipset seem to have at least a single ISA slot?

Website below goes into details of the difference but basically Tualatin's have a slightly different voltage and pin layout making it incompatible with earlier S370 boards. The adapter gets around this incompatibility.

Another problem is Tualatin's have a 133Mhz FSB where as BX motherboards only officially support 100Mhz. overclocking the board is possible just keep in mind the AGP is also overclocked.
Most motherboards with ISA are also Slot 1 so you would need to have a slocket adapter to convert Slot 1 to S370, the Tualatin powerleap adapter, and run the board overlocked. It's definite possible as plenty of people have such a setup but personally it just has to many points of failure for my liking.

If it was me I'd not worry about Tualatin, I'm only running 600Mhz Katmai and its fine or meet in the middle and go Coppermine. Remember your going to have the XP rig for the demanding games, typically the P3 will be playing games that have a MMX as it's system requirements.

But if you do really want Tualatin the link below has a link to a vogons wiki page that lists all S370 boards including if it has native support for Tualatin and ISA slots etc

http://brassicgamer.blogspot.com/2020/10/the- … i-tualatin.html

bobsmith wrote on 2023-03-16, 03:36:

I'd like to make a build to play mid 90s games (Tomb Raider, Quake, Unreal, other games I need to play) as well as mid 2000s (GTA, Sims 2, NFS, Far Cry and Serious Sam). Is this possible? I know Windows 98 can run some later graphics cards just fine albeit they have issues with older games. Should I dualboot XP/98SE? I was looking at CPUs and it seems the Athlon 64 is a good choice but struggles in mid 2000s games, would an 64 X2 be better and would it run as good as a 64 with 98SE? What about video and sound card? I am new to building older PCs, so sorry if these are noob questions 🤣
If possible I could hunt down a Voodoo card to use with games that run better with 3dfx. Could I leave that in the PC with a ATI/Nvidia card and just disable the other card in Windows?

My 98/XP rig works decently well with about 98'ish to around 2007'ish games. I avoided LGA775/A64 because of spotty Win98 support (only a handful of boards work well and I didn't feel like playing roulette) and Athlon XP because of it's ridiculous 5v/3.3v power requirements. Yes, I know Intel was dragging behind AMD in this era but honestly - not by that much. If you opt for a case with decent airflow, they don't even run that hot either. Most computers back then were sweat boxes with little ventilation, tiny 80mm fans, and not much thought in airflow design.

- Pentium 4 3.0c (Northwood, the hyperthread is nice for XP but unused in 98)
- ASUS P4P800-VM (mine is a non-OEM model, the board itself doesnt matter but you want the 865PE chipset). It has driver support for 98, rock stable, has SATA ports that can run in IDE/Legacy mode, and USB2 ports that work well at full speed in 98 with nusb3.3. Most boards from this era regardless of CPU type suffer from the capacitor plague so if you're buying this, do check the caps or replace them if you're knowledgeable enough to.
- ATI Radeon x850 Pro ('beta' drivers for 98 but I haven't really run into any issues with it for the stuff I play). If you want to aim for better compatibility at the cost of a bit of performance on the late-end, go for a GeForce 4 Ti of some sort (ideally one that can run 28.32 drivers). I have a Ti 4200 for a spare/switch card in case I run into a badly running older game which I haven't needed to do yet. I avoided GeForce FX because of poor performance and GF6 because of having to run nvidia's bullshit later detonators in 98.
- 2GB DDR400 (Need rloew's PATCHMEM patch for 98se). Don't need nearly this much for 98 but having it is useful for the later XP games with pushing the envelope a little bit and it's cheap anyways.
- 320GB WD Blue HD (partitioned 80gb for 98, rest for XP - set in legacy/compatibility mode so it acts as an 'IDE drive'). Any more modern HD will be plenty fast for 98 and XP in comparison to the old clunkers that were around back then and you avoid TRIM/SATA 1 support issues from trying to use a SSD. A good cheap speedy modern HD that works well with this board is the WD Blue 1TB 7200RPM (WD10EZEX). Do note that Win98 has a serious bug with partitions over 127gb or so and you'll either need to patch it using rloew's PATCHATA or keep your 98 partition under that limit. If you have a smaller drive, an alternate option is setting up a RetroNAS for storing images/installers (which can also be helpful for storing stuff for any other retro rigs that you may have/get)
- SB Audigy 2 ZS (use the VXD drivers for 98). It does work ok for DOS games within Windows if you follow this guide. There are other good options as well but I had this one around anyways.

Some earlier titles (pre DX5/DX5 era) may give issues due to ATI's bad drivers. From your list - Quake and Unreal/UT99 all do work decently well on it, haven't tried Tomb Raider but I don't think there would be any issues with it in particular. If I'm wrong I can find a copy and give it a try to report back if you'd like. I haven't tried many mid 90s games because I have a 200MMX rig for those but I did run a few to try them out which all worked perfectly (Age of Empires, Quake 1 and 2, C&C and C&C Red Alert, Earthsiege 2, GTA Windows, Dune 2000, NFS II-SE)

Late 90s games all work pretty much maxed out in 98se (UT99, Unreal, Quake III Arena, C&C Red Alert 2, C&C Tiberian Sun, Diablo II, Age of Empires II, GTA 2). If you're curious about a particular game from this era for compatibility wise, let me know and I'll try it out sometime and report back.

Early to mid 2000s games in XP scream on it as this is what the build targets (C&C Generals, COD2, Battlefield 1942, Battlefield 2, Doom 3, NFS:Underground/U2, GTA3/Vice City/San Andreas, Quake 4, Lord of the Rings Battle for middle earth 2, Simcity 4, UT2004, Warcraft 3, Counter Strike, Halo/Halo2, Rise of Nations/Legends, Age of Mythology, Sims 2). I haven't tried Far Cry or Serious Sam but no real reason they wouldn't work too.

Performance starts to drop off around the era when SM3.0 games start to come out (which this card doesn't support - thanks ATI). So, around 2007-2008 but I can play some games from then decently well on it if I drop the settings a bit (C&C3, COD Modern Warfare, Tom Clancy's HAWX).

Later games, I either run on my main or I have a i5-4590 + 750Ti build that works in XP that shreds them all (which is sadly down at the moment due to a dead PSU and drive). But it doesn't sound like you're aiming for very late 2000s/early 2010s stuff with this anyways.

Hope this helps!

Ordered an Athlon 64+mobo+RAM and got a 800 card, the build is slowly coming together and I will post updates when the parts arrive. Is it possible to install 98SE using a USB (Like for example, copy the installer to the hard drive with FreeDOS or something)? I have DVD and CD drives but not any discs to use them with although if it gets to that point I don't mind getting some. If it helps I have a 3 inch floppy drive and a disk to use with it. I am planning to dualboot with XP SP3 for general use like web browsing, watching DVDs, music and whatever else.
Will there be PSU concerns or will any regular PSU work as long as it can supply the system with adequate power?

bobsmith wrote on 2023-03-27, 13:08:

Ordered an Athlon 64+mobo+RAM and got a steal on a X800 card B), the build is slowly coming together and I will post updates when the parts arrive. Is it possible to install 98SE using a USB (Like for example, copy the installer to the hard drive with FreeDOS or something)? I have DVD and CD drives but not any discs to use them with although if it gets to that point I don't mind getting some. If it helps I have a 3 inch floppy drive and a disk to use with it. I am planning to dualboot with XP SP3 for general use like web browsing, watching DVDs, music and whatever else.
Will there be PSU concerns or will any regular PSU work as long as it can supply the system with adequate power?

If you copy the installer to the C drive and run it from there, yes. It's not recommended doing it from the USB itself, Win98's setup is not USB aware and really does not like that. Using a CD is the easiest way to install 98 and XP.

As for PSU, it depends. If you're using an AGP card with a molex connector, try to get a PSU with at least 130 combined wattage in the 3.3V+5V rails for safety. For a PCI-e card, any decent one should do as it draws like a modern rig would. There is a PSU calculator here: https://outervision.com/power-supply-calculator to get a good idea of what you should expect for with the different rails (ignore its PSU suggestion). For trying to find retro CPUs with the search, I find it helps to find the right CPU if I use the 'rating' in its model (like A pentium 4 3.0GHz Northwood, search '3000'. Or an A64 3500+, search '3500+')

bobsmith wrote on 2023-03-27, 13:08:

Ordered an Athlon 64+mobo+RAM and got a steal on a X800 card B), the build is slowly coming together and I will post updates when the parts arrive. Is it possible to install 98SE using a USB (Like for example, copy the installer to the hard drive with FreeDOS or something)? I have DVD and CD drives but not any discs to use them with although if it gets to that point I don't mind getting some. If it helps I have a 3 inch floppy drive and a disk to use with it. I am planning to dualboot with XP SP3 for general use like web browsing, watching DVDs, music and whatever else.
Will there be PSU concerns or will any regular PSU work as long as it can supply the system with adequate power?

If you're using a modern SATA drive with an IDE adapter, my favourite way to install Win 98 SE is to plug the SATA drive into my modern computer using a SATA to USB adapter and format it FAT32 using guiformat. Then copy the WIN98 folder from your install CD to your SATA drive. Now plug it back into your retro PC and boot it with a WIN98SE boot disk. Now you just go into the WIN98 folder on the C drive and run setup and you're on your way.

As for XP, I have less experience with that, but in my attempts to use a USB installer it's been nothing but a headache, so I just use the install CD.

Hope that all helps.

You can do something more or less "universal" with rare industrial Socket 775 motherboards, which have ISA slots. That's pricey though.

I am definitely in the 'why not both' or even all three camp! Glad to see you went with the A64/X800 combo. That's a really nice XP setup. I started by building my dream machine for XP with a P4 3.4 and and X850 but I am now in the process of building #2, an A64+x1950 and #3 a PIII/Radeon 8500, because why not!!!

Anyway just wanted to say it's awesome to see someone on the younger side getting into this stuff, it's really interesting!!!

bobsmith wrote on 2023-03-16, 03:36:

I'd like to make a build to play mid 90s games (Tomb Raider, Quake, Unreal, other games I need to play)

Test those games on W2000 and/or XP. We often play games on W9x because we want the original janky Windows experience. If your only concern are the games themselves, you can play them in a more modern environment.

bobsmith wrote on 2023-03-16, 03:36:

as well as mid 2000s (GTA, Sims 2, NFS, Far Cry and Serious Sam).

Up to which NFS entry? It's probably that and Far Cry that needs the most power.

bobsmith wrote on 2023-03-16, 03:36:

Should I dualboot XP/98SE?

I'd generally recommend not to. Though for the early XP era it can be pulled off.

bobsmith wrote on 2023-03-16, 03:36:

I was looking at CPUs and it seems the Athlon 64 is a good choice but struggles in mid 2000s games, would an 64 X2 be better and would it run as good as a 64 with 98SE? What about video and sound card?

An Athlon 64 should be fine up to 2006 or for many games even beyond. But for games beyond 2006, you'll need a faster graphics card and lose W98 compatibility, which may not even be a problem, if all the games you plan to play work on W2k/XP. But then you don't have to limit yourself to W98 compatible hardware, unless the games specifically demand certain features.