VOGONS


First post, by Mamba

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Hello,

sorry to be late with this and sorry it is so ugly.
I did some test with two adapters I have, PEX8111 and PEX8112.
The scope was to see if it was possible to use good gpus on motherboards without AGP slots, so even in that case and without spending a lot would be possible to have good playback capabilities and some gaming from early/mid 2000.

The motherboard is a Supermicro 370DLE with two LIN-LIN and a pair of P-IIIS 1400.
I assume mem speed would not be stellar because of registered ram (2GB) and because of the chipset not exactly built for speed, and this could hit performance. OS is XP SP3

The tests where Final Reality Bus speed (easy and fast) and 3DMark01

the cards:

- GF5200 PCI as a control, drivers 67.77
- HD 5450 DDR3 PCIe Catalyst 14.4
- GT 730 PCIe x1 64bit Kepler drivers 381. something... The last one for XP
- GTX 450 profile, the only one with external power, to avoid power shortage of PCIX bus. Drivers same as above

the PCI bus speed is 66Mhz.
it is very easy to see how 8112 is far better then 8111, the results are next to each other.
For FR it’s in mb/s , for 3dMark you have multiply x100.
It was the only way to fit all.
The best card for 3DMark was the GTX450 with 9666 points.
As a reference, the FX5200 (66Mhz bus) achieved 5075

I doubt the doubling of tualatins had any impact, I think it would be the same for 1 CPU.
And yes, 2D bus speed for FX5200 is stellar, do not know why, I did the tests several times. Maybe because the FX series had a dedicated 2D unit that better interacts with the benchmark. Do not know.
Of course all cards except the fx5200 give perfect FullHD playback with very low cpu usage (around 10% in the worst case).

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Reply 2 of 86, by Mamba

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Just an update,
10157 points with a HD5570 14.4 drivers with Tualatin 1266Mhz.

Is it an impressive result or not?
Probably I will post in 3dMark01 megathread.
I think I am t level of AGP with that cpu, or not?

Reply 3 of 86, by The Serpent Rider

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Mamba wrote on 2023-04-09, 13:57:
Just an update, 10157 points with a HD5570 14.4 drivers with Tualatin 1266Mhz. […]
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Just an update,
10157 points with a HD5570 14.4 drivers with Tualatin 1266Mhz.

Is it an impressive result or not?
Probably I will post in 3dMark01 megathread.
I think I am t level of AGP with that cpu, or not?

Seems to be right. GTS450 can scale up to 19k points with regular PCI slot on Phenom II system with PEX 8112.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 4 of 86, by flupke11

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Not at all useless! Thanks for testing this.

I also have a Supermicro Dual Tualatin board with the Serverset chipset, and on mine the AGP port is all but useless (unless in 1x speed) due to several bugs.

Using a PCI to PCI-E is a good way of circumventing that issue, especially with the added benefit of the 66 Mhz PCI bus on these mainboards.

Reply 5 of 86, by The Serpent Rider

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I think dedicated 66 Mhz PCI-X slot is the only viable option, because regular PCI 33Mhz bus has too many bandwidth related issues.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 7 of 86, by Mamba

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tokenalt wrote on 2023-08-09, 13:58:

I doubt you'll find many socket 370 boards with native PCI-X. The retro web only lists a single board, the dell poweredge 2500.

The one in this thread was one of them, it has two unshared pci-x 66Mhz slots.
Wish I could grab one pci-x/pcie x4 adapters from Startech.

Reply 8 of 86, by tokenalt

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Mamba wrote on 2023-08-09, 14:15:
tokenalt wrote on 2023-08-09, 13:58:

I doubt you'll find many socket 370 boards with native PCI-X. The retro web only lists a single board, the dell poweredge 2500.

The one in this thread was one of them.
Very fast I have to say.

That board has PCI slots not PCI-X.

Reply 9 of 86, by Mamba

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tokenalt wrote on 2023-08-09, 14:18:
Mamba wrote on 2023-08-09, 14:15:
tokenalt wrote on 2023-08-09, 13:58:

I doubt you'll find many socket 370 boards with native PCI-X. The retro web only lists a single board, the dell poweredge 2500.

The one in this thread was one of them.
Very fast I have to say.

That board has PCI slots not PCI-X.

I assume I perfectly know my board and the difference between pci-x and regular pci…

Reply 10 of 86, by tokenalt

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Mamba wrote on 2023-08-09, 14:30:
tokenalt wrote on 2023-08-09, 14:18:
Mamba wrote on 2023-08-09, 14:15:

The one in this thread was one of them.
Very fast I have to say.

That board has PCI slots not PCI-X.

I assume I perfectly know my board and the difference between pci-x and regular pci…

A: The user manual lists them as PCI. https://theretroweb.com/motherboard/manual/s2 … c0357358831.pdf
B: The speed is slow. only a few early PCI-X systems ran at 66MHz. Vast majority of PCI-X ran at 133MHz with some later ones running at 266MHz or 533MHz.

Reply 11 of 86, by Mamba

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tokenalt wrote on 2023-08-09, 14:34:
Mamba wrote on 2023-08-09, 14:30:
tokenalt wrote on 2023-08-09, 14:18:

That board has PCI slots not PCI-X.

I assume I perfectly know my board and the difference between pci-x and regular pci…

A: The user manual lists them as PCI. https://theretroweb.com/motherboard/manual/s2 … c0357358831.pdf
B: The speed is slow. only a few early PCI-X systems ran at 66MHz. Vast majority of PCI-X ran at 133MHz with some later ones running at 266MHz or 533MHz.

Look at page 24.
Pci64.
It can run at 66Mhz and possibly 64bit doubling the bandwith.
In this case it runs at 66Mhz but 32bit since I have a 32bit adapter.
I think you are making a bit of confusion between different revision of pci-x.
This of course is an early one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI-X

Regards

Reply 12 of 86, by tokenalt

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Mamba wrote on 2023-08-09, 14:41:
Look at page 24. Pci64. It can run at 66Mhz and possibly 64bit doubling the bandwith. In this case it runs at 66Mhz but 32bit si […]
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tokenalt wrote on 2023-08-09, 14:34:
Mamba wrote on 2023-08-09, 14:30:

I assume I perfectly know my board and the difference between pci-x and regular pci…

A: The user manual lists them as PCI. https://theretroweb.com/motherboard/manual/s2 … c0357358831.pdf
B: The speed is slow. only a few early PCI-X systems ran at 66MHz. Vast majority of PCI-X ran at 133MHz with some later ones running at 266MHz or 533MHz.

Look at page 24.
Pci64.
It can run at 66Mhz and possibly 64bit doubling the bandwith.
In this case it runs at 66Mhz but 32bit since I have a 32bit adapter.
I think you are making a bit of confusion between different revision of pci-x.
This of course is an early one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI-X

Regards

PCI v2.1 from 1995 added 66MHz support.

Reply 13 of 86, by Mamba

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tokenalt wrote on 2023-08-09, 14:51:
Mamba wrote on 2023-08-09, 14:41:
Look at page 24. Pci64. It can run at 66Mhz and possibly 64bit doubling the bandwith. In this case it runs at 66Mhz but 32bit si […]
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tokenalt wrote on 2023-08-09, 14:34:

A: The user manual lists them as PCI. https://theretroweb.com/motherboard/manual/s2 … c0357358831.pdf
B: The speed is slow. only a few early PCI-X systems ran at 66MHz. Vast majority of PCI-X ran at 133MHz with some later ones running at 266MHz or 533MHz.

Look at page 24.
Pci64.
It can run at 66Mhz and possibly 64bit doubling the bandwith.
In this case it runs at 66Mhz but 32bit since I have a 32bit adapter.
I think you are making a bit of confusion between different revision of pci-x.
This of course is an early one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI-X

Regards

PCI v2.1 from 1995 added 66MHz support.

And 64bit support?
You are definitely confused.
But Ok I give up
Whatever you say, it is regular PCI… You win.

Reply 15 of 86, by tokenalt

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Mamba wrote on 2023-08-09, 15:20:
And 64bit support? You are definitely confused. But Ok I give up Whatever you say, it is regular PCI… You win. […]
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And 64bit support?
You are definitely confused.
But Ok I give up
Whatever you say, it is regular PCI… You win.

From the wikipedia page you linked to.

Ports using a bus speed doubled to 66 MHz and a bus width doubled to 64 bits (with the pin count increased to 184 from 124), in combination or not, have been implemented. These extensions were loosely supported as optional parts of the PCI 2.x standards, but device compatibility beyond the basic 133 MB/s continued to be difficult.

Developers eventually used the combined 64-bit and 66-MHz extension as a foundation, and, anticipating future needs, established 66-MHz and 133-MHz variants with a maximum bandwidth of 532 MB/s and 1064 MB/s respectively. The joint result was submitted as PCI-X to the PCI Special Interest Group (Special Interest Group of the Association for Computing Machinery).

Reply 16 of 86, by Mamba

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tokenalt wrote on 2023-08-09, 16:23:
From the wikipedia page you linked to. […]
Show full quote
Mamba wrote on 2023-08-09, 15:20:
And 64bit support? You are definitely confused. But Ok I give up Whatever you say, it is regular PCI… You win. […]
Show full quote

And 64bit support?
You are definitely confused.
But Ok I give up
Whatever you say, it is regular PCI… You win.

From the wikipedia page you linked to.

Ports using a bus speed doubled to 66 MHz and a bus width doubled to 64 bits (with the pin count increased to 184 from 124), in combination or not, have been implemented. These extensions were loosely supported as optional parts of the PCI 2.x standards, but device compatibility beyond the basic 133 MB/s continued to be difficult.

Developers eventually used the combined 64-bit and 66-MHz extension as a foundation, and, anticipating future needs, established 66-MHz and 133-MHz variants with a maximum bandwidth of 532 MB/s and 1064 MB/s respectively. The joint result was submitted as PCI-X to the PCI Special Interest Group (Special Interest Group of the Association for Computing Machinery).

As said, you won man.
Keep your truth, fine for me.

Reply 18 of 86, by The Serpent Rider

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Pentium III workstation/server boards had PCI-X 1.0. End of the story.
And since PCI-X slots are directly connected to the north bridge and have direct path to RAM, it's practically an AGP.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 19 of 86, by Mamba

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-08-09, 17:27:

Pentium III workstation/server boards had PCI-X 1.0. End of the story.
And since PCI-X slots are directly connected to the north bridge and have direct path to RAM, it's practically an AGP.

But he is the winner anyway.