bartonxp wrote on 2023-04-24, 18:10:

Any KALMX card, except maybe the 750, is highly desirable. I bought a 1050 Ti because it's such a nice piece. Any 4GB/8GB fanless is somewhat desirable.
...
new retro gamers are disenchanted because the system obviously sucks on so many levels, heck it sucks hard even outside of gaming, they know it's not right and look towards us elders for answers. They see what we're doing and want to join in on the fun.

Interesting, have you conversed any of these retro youngsters?

My first thought was that they merely buy stuff to make a profit.

Joakim wrote on 2023-04-24, 18:51:

bartonxp wrote on 2023-04-24, 18:10:

Any KALMX card, except maybe the 750, is highly desirable. I bought a 1050 Ti because it's such a nice piece. Any 4GB/8GB fanless is somewhat desirable.
...
new retro gamers are disenchanted because the system obviously sucks on so many levels, heck it sucks hard even outside of gaming, they know it's not right and look towards us elders for answers. They see what we're doing and want to join in on the fun.

Interesting, have you conversed any of these retro youngsters?

My first thought was that they merely buy stuff to make a profit.

Are you serious? Take a look, or assume they're all doing it for profit.

bartonxp wrote on 2023-04-24, 17:01:

Did it really though? I don't use steam, my Windows 7 box is not allowed on the internet anymore, I don't have a Windows 10 machine and have yet to install the OS on my own, not even sure if it can be done entirely offline and even operate entirely offline once installed. I just don't see the point, some of us aren't attracted to an online-only ecosystem that offers no benefit and yet introduces new risks to the norm.

You represent a small minority of gamers that hasn't moved to digital distribution.

If you look at the rise of digital distribution in the past 15+ years, it's been highly successful. Steam is the most used PC gaming platform. Many other publishers have tried copying Steam with their own digital distribution methods including EA, Epic, Blizzard-Activision, Ubisoft. Even GOG has their own digital downloader / game launcher now in the form of GOG Galaxy.

I think the new generation doesn't know how good the past was and is complacent with all they've ever come to know despite knowing it's not ideal, until they read about how happy retro gamers are with their old hardware. So much variety, so much adventure! I think the recent influx of new users into the retro scene, people who never lived the golden era of computer gaming, is evidence that the new model is failing. The new generation is disenchanted with the norm and see us still having fun while doing things differently, we're still happy with our old gaming machines because we don't subscribe to the new way governed by artificial market forces.

I think retro pc/console scene is growing!

The retro scene has grown simply a consequence of demographics shifts. Gaming as a whole has progressively grown. So you had more gamers in the 80s than you did in the 70s, more in the 90s than the 80s, etc. As those demographics age, they look to recapture what they played in their youth. Hence the 90s retro scene is bigger than the 80s retro scene, and 80s is bigger than 70s, etc.

So there isn't anything particularly remarkable about this other than just basic demographics trends. I certainly don't think it reflects any perceived superiority with different aging of gaming. Which TBH, rose-tinted nostalgia goggles tends to distort anyways.

However, retro gaming still represents a minority of gaming compared to contemporary games. A variety of stats from relative social media numbers (e.g. comparing memberships in different Reddit subs), games sales, system sales, all support this. For example, just a cursory look at the top 10 selling video games of all time, and six of them were released since 2010: Minecraft, Grand Theft Auto V, PUBG, Mario Kart 8, Red Dead Redemption 2, and Terraria.

The trends in just best selling PC games is ever more tilted towards recent decades, with 7 of the top 10 released since 2010.

If you want to predict where things will be in the coming decades, then look at what was popular of the past 10 years until now. And what has been most popular has largely been multiplayer games and rise of digital distribution across the board. Which is why I predict the future retro scene may end up looking different with less of an emphasis on hardware, since that hardware is becoming forcibly obsolete as online platforms for that hardware become discontinued.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-04-24, 19:18:

You represent a small minority of gamers that hasn't moved to digital distribution. […]
Show full quote

bartonxp wrote on 2023-04-24, 17:01:

Did it really though? I don't use steam, my Windows 7 box is not allowed on the internet anymore, I don't have a Windows 10 machine and have yet to install the OS on my own, not even sure if it can be done entirely offline and even operate entirely offline once installed. I just don't see the point, some of us aren't attracted to an online-only ecosystem that offers no benefit and yet introduces new risks to the norm.

You represent a small minority of gamers that hasn't moved to digital distribution.

If you look at the rise of digital distribution in the past 15+ years, it's been highly successful. Steam is the most used PC gaming platform. Many other publishers have tried copying Steam with their own digital distribution methods including EA, Epic, Blizzard-Activision, Ubisoft. Even GOG has their own digital downloader / game launcher now in the form of GOG Galaxy.

I think the new generation doesn't know how good the past was and is complacent with all they've ever come to know despite knowing it's not ideal, until they read about how happy retro gamers are with their old hardware. So much variety, so much adventure! I think the recent influx of new users into the retro scene, people who never lived the golden era of computer gaming, is evidence that the new model is failing. The new generation is disenchanted with the norm and see us still having fun while doing things differently, we're still happy with our old gaming machines because we don't subscribe to the new way governed by artificial market forces.

I think retro pc/console scene is growing!

The retro scene has grown simply a consequence of demographics shifts. Gaming as a whole has progressively grown. So you had more gamers in the 80s than you did in the 70s, more in the 90s than the 80s, etc. As those demographics age, they look to recapture what they played in their youth. Hence the 90s retro scene is bigger than the 80s retro scene, and 80s is bigger than 70s, etc.

So there isn't anything particularly remarkable about this other than just basic demographics trends. I certainly don't think it reflects any perceived superiority with different aging of gaming. Which TBH, rose-tinted nostalgia goggles tends to distort anyways.

However, retro gaming still represents a minority of gaming compared to contemporary games. A variety of stats from relative social media numbers (e.g. comparing memberships in different Reddit subs), games sales, system sales, all support this. For example, just a cursory look at the top 10 selling video games of all time, and six of them were released since 2010: Minecraft, Grand Theft Auto V, PUBG, Mario Kart 8, Red Dead Redemption 2, and Terraria.

The trends in just best selling PC games is ever more tilted towards recent decades, with 7 of the top 10 released since 2010.

If you want to predict where things will be in the coming decades, then look at what was popular of the past 10 years until now. And what has been most popular has largely been multiplayer games and rise of digital distribution across the board. Which is why I predict the future retro scene may end up looking different with less of an emphasis on hardware, since that hardware is becoming forcibly obsolete as online platforms for that hardware become discontinued.

Steam is the most used platform because the industry is nudging consumers in that direction. Same as with Windows, don't like SaaS? Tough.

Games are better today than the yester-years? Rose coloured glasses? I'm sorry I don't believe that the majority agrees that games have gotten better, especially among us wizened few who were first through the breach. There are a few outliers in modern games, like Elder Scrolls, RDR2 or Minecraft, but the majority stinks and it's a reflection of where the industry has gone, or what those in power have found they can get away with. Oh woe is me, distraught that the likes of Baldur's Gate will never be seen again. Did you see what happened to the remake?

It's laughable to think that the increase in interest can be lauded as simply demographics returning to their hyped version of what things were, when I see new retro users coming here making posting about how they're interested in getting into the scene but are totally clueless, or watching those idiots on Reddit foaming at the mouth daily because they're being played so hard and can't figure it out. Interesting is growing, some of those idiots are figuring it out and making the shift. I see them come here because this is a place where the real gamers hang, where it's not just a bunch of unsavoury people who you don't know if they're your friend or just trying to make a buck off your ignorance.

The industry is crap now. I mean that's just my opinion but I don't think I'm alone on this.

bartonxp wrote on 2023-04-24, 19:49:

Games are better today than the yester-years? Rose coloured glasses?

I didn't say games today were any better or worse than in the past. The perception of what is good or bad tends to be shaped by one's own experiences of what they grew up with and what they are nostalgic for.

The perception of things getting worse is often less a reflection on any actual trends. It's simply a consequence of getting older.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-04-24, 20:14:

bartonxp wrote on 2023-04-24, 19:49:

Games are better today than the yester-years? Rose coloured glasses?

I didn't say games today were any better or worse than in the past. The perception of what is good or bad tends to be shaped by one's own experiences of what they grew up with and what they are nostalgic for.

The perception of things getting worse is often less a reflection on any actual trends. It's simply a reflection of adaptability to change over time and a consequence of getting older.

Yeah, because we all can agree what constitutes a good movie or a good book, but games, entirely subjective. I still think if we took a random sample of 100 Vogonites we'd find that people agree, games were better when it was less about graphics and more about content.

Sorry, not trying to start a fight, just a rational debate. I'll shut up now.

bartonxp wrote on 2023-04-24, 20:22:

Yeah, because we all can agree what constitutes a good movie or a good book, but games, entirely subjective.

Could we agree on those things though? I mean, people say "everything current is crap" about everything. Movies, TV shows and music are also popular things to crap on. Heck, South Park did an entire episode about this phenomenon over 10 years ago.

If you really want to test this though, ask yourself this one question: are you as excited for things that came decades before what you grew up with versus the decades that you did grow up in? If the answer is "no", then that's a pretty strong indication that nostalgia is the primary driver of that interest.

I still think if we took a random sample of 100 Vogonites we'd find that people agree, games were better when it was less about graphics and more about content.

VOGONs isn't representative of most gamers though. This forum is geared towards nostalgia, so naturally we'd expect people would be skewed towards fond memories of games from decades ago.

Sorry, not trying to start a fight, just a rational debate. I'll shut up now.

No worries. 😀

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-04-24, 20:31:

If you really want to test this though, ask yourself this one question: are you as excited for things that came decades before what you grew up with versus the decades that you did grow up in? If the answer is "no", then that's a pretty strong indication that nostalgia is the primary driver of that interest.

Or, I've had a taste from the sweetwater spring and can compare it to what I see now.

*Sigh* AM3+ boards with a hybrid-BIOS instead of UEFI.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-04-24, 20:31:

If you really want to test this though, ask yourself this one question: are you as excited for things that came decades before what you grew up with versus the decades that you did grow up in? If the answer is "no", then that's a pretty strong indication that nostalgia is the primary driver of that interest.

Actually, I do want to pick some old tech that predates me and work with it to learn. Some of the earliest advances in the computer revolution is still what we do today, we are just now being charged it through schemes that obfuscate the operation to the benefit of some corporation. So the grumblings for things like steam and windows are relevant. It does go beyond computers into alot of things. What has been forgotten is not all lost. So yes, I am interested in history that I have not fully seen.

I don't beleive that theres going to be any future computer related retro stuff. 80s and 90s tech is in many ways like classic cars of the 1950s, 60s and early part of the 1970s. It was a special time in history like when great bands like Led Zeplin were a thing and why they call that genre classic rock. For the same reason 90+% of new music is total shit, and new cars are boring and lame, can be said about new computers windows 11 puke. Plus gen Z and whatever is after them doesn't care about any of this stuff. Theyre more intrested in having thier face glued to an Iphone 24/7 with their heads up thier ass while doing so.

Warlord wrote on 2023-04-25, 04:45:

classic cars of the 1950s, 60s and early part of the 1970s. It was a special time in history

In US car manufacturing maybe, but the BMW E30 and E36 are already a very much sought after collectible items, same with the 80s Audi Quattros (especially Sports Quattro). Generally cars that were participating in WRC or Touring Cars. A good number of 80s and 90s Japanese cars also became iconic and a non-riced one costs a lot.

If you are old enough, you view cars as freedom to go anywhere at any time to do anything. For younger generations computer were basically the same, freedom to explore the internet and see what is out in the world without leaving the house. Even younger generations do the same thing using smart phones so expect those to be collectable because of what they mean to that generation.

Gaming went to hell for me once games were online only multiplayer or even worse subscription based. And I say this even when my favorite game for the last couple decades has been Age of Empires 2 The conquerors which I play every weekend online in 8 player mode. I miss the days where games were single player and were fun to play. I still think old arcade games were the best along with some pinball machines.

People will always collect old computers for playing old games just like they collect old consoles. The difference will be fewer people will probably collect the exotic hardware we obsess over now because it will not matter much in gameplay. These days you have the choice of AMD or Intel for CPU, and AMD or Nvidia for GPU and that's it. gone are the days or real competition and innovation that fueled dozens of companies making video, sound, and cpu's (which is where collecting was more fun). Digital distribution for gaming meant that is killed the collecting and resell market for both PC games and consoles. No box, no artwork, no physical media, nothing works without patches or servers that don't exist anymore. The only reason I can even play Age of Empires anymore is because of Voobly.com reverse engineering the server side of the game after Microsoft shut down zone.com.

LMAO on typical attempts to generalize whole generations. There are nerds and geeks in every generation and some of them have interest for old hardware, which may of may not spurred from interest for emulating old games.
And 2000-2010 was very cool too, because manufacturers began catering to modders with tacky colors, UV-lights and insane case designs. All that "RGB everything" you see now will be also fondly remembered.

Thats definatly the exception rather than the rule. The disparity among those who spent their entire childhoods up and into their adulthoods in a analog world when times were much differnt, than kids who lets say weren't born until after 2001 whos 1st chance at running a computer was possibly windows 8 or 7, that by the time they could really wrap their heads around anything was windows 10 is pretty huge. I know there are exceptions, but those exceptions are probably because they had an adult in the house that influenced them, rather than had 1st time lived it. Still though more power to them its a good thing not a bad thing.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-04-25, 07:21:

LMAO on typical attempts to generalize whole generations.

If there is one constant, it does seem to be older generations crapping on the newer generations and whining that everything new is crap.

Seems to be a cycle as old as time itself.

It's not about the nostalgia or that it's "retro". It's about what it is and is not, inherently. Computers have become a commodity item, now more than ever.

All of the improvements are now about just making the same basic architecture faster.

It's kind of like how cars basically became a mature product (except for safety features) sometime in the 1960s. After that, well, manufactures basically diddled around making safety improvements, boring design increments, and changing the dash to a big touchscreen for no reason, because you're never going to improve on a 150 HP engine with an overdrive transmission for the average commuter, or a big V8 with 4WD for a truck, without raising the cost way too much. At that point it just becomes about doing the best job making "the car" that all the engineers already figured out the best configuration for long ago.

At some point you run into physical limitations of what you can do. Computers will get there soon too - there's only so small we can make those transistors. Atoms themselves are only so big.

Furthermore, at some point computers are just "fast enough" for everything. We are already seeing photorealistic games appearing. When every commodity machine runs one of those at 120fps (which will happen in like 5 years), where are we going from there? That's the end of the line for your average guy who wants to buy a computer. Businesses will continue wanting more and more power, but we're talking about the hobbyist community here.

Another good example is audio Hi-Fi equipment.

The audio industry started making equipment that can easily compete with good equipment from the modern day in some cases as early as the 1950s. At some point you reach the physical limitations of what the human ear can hear, and then what? You still have to have something to market to consumers, so you advertise bells, whistles, gimmicks that don't do anything - at the end of the day, you haven't really made any progress, and people are going to retain a fondness for the old stuff that was Made in the USA and not price-optimized plastic junk, because it legitimately is better in the areas that people actually care about, not really because it's "retro" or because of nostalgia, though those could still be factors.

All this to say - in the future, the reason people may seek out old equipment from 2023 or 2033 will probably be because it's actually better than what's being made in 2043, not because it has some inherent coolness to it, because computers are very close to being a fully mature product.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-04-25, 16:52:

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-04-25, 07:21:

LMAO on typical attempts to generalize whole generations.

If there is one constant, it does seem to be older generations crapping on the newer generations and whining that everything new is crap.

Seems to be a cycle as old as time itself.

Wow, how can I retort logic with a strong emotional appeal, it's unbeatable. And sycophancy to one of the demi-gods, I'm screwed!

Nobody except an ignorant, lost minority agrees the today's industry is better. It's as simple as the fact that we had healthier, free market choice in the past. Sorry!

bartonxp wrote on 2023-04-25, 17:29:

Wow, how can I retort logic with a strong emotional appeal, it's unbeatable.

This is not a novel phenomenon I'm pointing out. This is just something that has always occurred:

Why Older People Have Always Trashed Young People
Why the Old Look Down on the Young
Why old people will always complain about young people
People have always whinged about young adults. Here's proof

Nobody except an ignorant, lost minority agrees the today's industry is better.

I didn't say things were necessarily better. Just that they're not necessarily worse when it comes to quality of arts, entertainment or technology.

When you start analyzing entertainment specifically, it becomes apparent how repetitive everything really is over decades and even centuries.

When one is young, everything is new and exciting. We don't have a formative baseline for comparison. Hence, we tend to look at the stuff we grew up with as the benchmark for what we consider good. Since everything is so repetitive, when we don't experience that same level of novelty with more recent entertainment, we tend to be more likely to be critical of it.

It's as simple as the fact that we had healthier, free market choice in the past. Sorry!

What are we comparing here? Quality of arts? Or economics?

The older generation always complains about the younger generation, and they are always right.

GET OFF MY LAWN!!!

(I'm closing this down as it goes off the rails FAST)