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Unstable Slot-A build.

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First post, by paradigital

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I'm attempting to put together a 1999 build with the following specs:

MSI MS-6191 (AMD 750 Chipset)
Slot-A Athlon 900
128MB PC133 (TwinMOS)
Creative Labs CT6970 (3D Blaster Annihilator Pro)

Now I've got this up and running using Windows 98SE, but it's incredibly unstable. Crashing anywhere from 30s after booting into the OS up to maybe 30 minutes (I have managed a single run through of 3DMark 99 MAX before it crashed before).

Troubleshooting steps:

Replaced PSU with known good PSU that will happily run my Slot 1 build all day long.
Replaced GPU with known good Geforce 2 GTS, and known good TNT 2 Ultra.
Disabled USB in the BIOS.
Multiple different RAM sticks.
Different keyboards/mice.

I was in the middle of troubleshooting when the machine suddenly wouldn't POST any longer. I took a hunch and flashed the BIOS directly using my TL866+ and it began to POST and boot again. This was (along with the Geforce 2 GTS) when I managed to have it stable enough to run 3DMark 99 Max, once. It still randomly crashes and I'm running out of ideas.

I know that Irongate boards can be finicky at the best of times, but I'd have thought it would be more stable than 30s to 30 mins uptime.

Does anyone have a list of "best" drivers to try? Or any other ideas to look into stability?

Thanks in advance!

Reply 4 of 42, by shevalier

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paradigital wrote on 2023-05-09, 12:51:

Does anyone have a list of "best" drivers to try?
Thanks in advance!

Is my hardware compatible with smoke.dll of Microsoft?
This hardware is 20+ years old.
Always start by replacing electrolytic capacitors. Even if they look "fresh, just from the factory"
Then they check the power supply of the AGP - 3.3 / 1.5V, replacing the same capacitors or transistors.
At that time, engineers used very strange solutions.

Aopen MX3S, PIII-S Tualatin 1133, Radeon 9800Pro@XT BIOS, Diamond monster sound MX300
JetWay K8T8AS, Athlon DH-E6 3000+, Radeon HD2600Pro AGP, Audigy 2 Value

Reply 5 of 42, by bloodem

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bogdanpaulb wrote on 2023-05-09, 13:12:

On slot A motherboards, caps usualy. If the caps look ok, run also memtest and check if agp fast write is disabled.

It's actually quite common on old boards to see caps that look OK at first glance, but are in fact dead.

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 6 of 42, by bogdanpaulb

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By 'if the caps look ok' i didn't meant only optically and thou i completely agree with you, most people don't have a capacitor tester and the skills to take them out and test them (some don't even have a multimeter to check for a Vdrop).

Reply 7 of 42, by bloodem

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bogdanpaulb wrote on 2023-05-09, 13:56:

By 'if the caps look ok' i didn't meant only optically and thou i completely agree with you, most people don't have a capacitor tester and the skills to take them out and test them (some don't even have a multimeter to check for a Vdrop).

No problem, just wanted to point this out again, because it's a very common misconception.
PS: salutari din Brasov! 😁

Last edited by bloodem on 2023-05-09, 14:26. Edited 1 time in total.

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 8 of 42, by paradigital

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Fortunately, I have both a decent desoldering station, soldering iron, hot-air station, and a decent multimeter, though not a cap tester/esr meter.

I'll order the relevant caps tonight and fingers crossed it'll resolve the issues. I need to re-attach an SMD cap on the Geforce 256 anyway, someone has done a previoulsy dodgy looking repair.

Reply 9 of 42, by bloodem

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paradigital wrote on 2023-05-09, 12:51:

I know that Irongate boards can be finicky at the best of times, but I'd have thought it would be more stable than 30s to 30 mins uptime.

That's actually not my experience with them at all!
Granted, I think I only have multiple boards of the same make/model (4 x Gigabyte 7IXE) based on this chipset, but they are almost as solid as the 440BX boards (well, they are a bit finicky when it comes to memory compatibility, they outright refuse to POST with certain RAM modules). But once you find a compatible RAM kit and they POST, they just work.

Do you see random crashing, even when idling on the desktop? Or does it only happen in games/3D apps?
You mentioned that you replaced many components, but what about the CPU? Are you 100% sure that it's healthy (and temps are good)?
Even though replacing the caps is definitely something worth doing, I would first try and eliminate other potential factors.

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 10 of 42, by paradigital

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bloodem wrote on 2023-05-09, 14:50:
That's actually not my experience with them at all! Granted, I think I only have multiple boards of the same make/model (4 x Gig […]
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paradigital wrote on 2023-05-09, 12:51:

I know that Irongate boards can be finicky at the best of times, but I'd have thought it would be more stable than 30s to 30 mins uptime.

That's actually not my experience with them at all!
Granted, I think I only have multiple boards of the same make/model (4 x Gigabyte 7IXE) based on this chipset, but they are almost as solid as the 440BX boards (well, they are a bit finicky when it comes to memory compatibility, they outright refuse to POST with certain RAM modules). But once you find a compatible RAM kit and they POST, they just work.

Do you see random crashing, even when idling on the desktop? Or does it only happen in games/3D apps?
You mentioned that you replaced many components, but what about the CPU? Are you 100% sure that it's healthy (and temps are good)?
Even though replacing the caps is definitely something worth doing, I would first try and eliminate other potential factors.

My old GA-71XE4 was also a great board, but that was when brand new!

I don’t currently have another Slot A CPU to test, though I am waiting for a 700 to arrive. The temps seem OK using the tried and tested “finger on heatsink, can you keep it there for 15s” test. I have already dismantled the cartridge and replaced the TIM, so we should be good there, if the CPU is indeed fine.

The crashing can be literally any time, opening the Start Menu, browsing Explorer, installing an application, etc.

Reply 11 of 42, by swaaye

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I'd use the TNT2 until you get it completely stabilized because GeForce cards don't like Slot A chipsets. Something more sedate than a TNT2 Ultra would probably be ideal.

How much +5v current does your PSU provide? This is an Athlon 900 so that is something to look at. You probably want at least 30A.

Reply 13 of 42, by bloodem

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paradigital wrote on 2023-05-09, 16:55:

I don’t currently have another Slot A CPU to test, though I am waiting for a 700 to arrive. The temps seem OK using the tried and tested “finger on heatsink, can you keep it there for 15s” test. I have already dismantled the cartridge and replaced the TIM, so we should be good there, if the CPU is indeed fine.

The crashing can be literally any time, opening the Start Menu, browsing Explorer, installing an application, etc.

An oscilloscope would be very useful at this point, it's very likely that, if caps are indeed to blame, you would see a ginormous voltage ripple (which could explain the instability).
If you don't have an oscilloscope, you could also start by checking the CPU voltage with a multimeter. Again, if capacitors are damaged, it's very likely that VCORE is below what it should be (failed capacitors often turn into pseudo-resistors).

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 14 of 42, by bogdanpaulb

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I was just writing about a scope and probe on the 4 caps on the vrm 5v power in and on vcore also, try and check for system stability with a weak pci video card (2mb) if you have one.

Reply 15 of 42, by paradigital

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Unfortunately no oscilloscope in my arsenal, I’ve got good quality fluke meters though.

Plenty of low end PCI video cards I could throw in however.

Reply 16 of 42, by zami555

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paradigital wrote on 2023-05-09, 12:51:

MSI MS-6191 (AMD 750 Chipset)
Slot-A Athlon 900

Which exactly Slot A model you have? Is it Orion or Thunderbird?
Some Slot A motherboards don't work properly with Thunderbirds.