For real DOS gaming, I'd build a PC with ISA slots and get an ISA soundblaster (or whatever). Somethin gthat doesn't require EMS to load their drivers (which the Live!/Audigy cards need for their DOS SB16 emulation AFAIK).

The Live, Audigy and Audigy 2 cards have essentially the same DOS support. They are all using the same driver / technology to achieve it, acquired from Ensoniq.

Thanks for the advice.
Do you know where I can get the Joystick bracket to use on the joystick header on the Audigy cards?
I do have an ISA slot on this 440BX gigabyte board, can I have 2 sound cards (PCI and ISA) or is that unrealistic.

I think you can have different sound cards, but why bother?

RedSarg99 wrote on 2023-05-17, 08:32:

I do have an ISA slot on this 440BX gigabyte board, can I have 2 sound cards (PCI and ISA) or is that unrealistic.

Yes you can, I've used PCI SB Live! for Windows with ISA Orpheus for DOS just fine.

Edit: I noticed you have 440BX board. I don't know was I just unlucky but I couldn't get Audigy 2 card to work well with my 440BX motherboard. Works fine on other later system. Could still work with your board, just thought to mention that if you decide to use it.

Dominus wrote on 2023-05-17, 08:57:

I think you can have different sound cards, but why bother?

If cleaner output and EAX support for Windows games aren't enough, how about the 10-20 fps (iirc) advance PCI sound cards have over ISA sound cards in games. According to Phils computer lab, can't remember what games he used for testing.

Still wouldn’t bother for a Windows 95 machine with some DOS gaming 🤷‍♂️
Surely for a later Windows, especially XP

Dominus wrote on 2023-05-17, 09:23:

Still wouldn’t bother for a Windows 95 machine with some DOS gaming 🤷‍♂️
Surely for a later Windows, especially XP

If the build is 200MHz Pentium or the like I agree with you. But the way he puts it "Win95/98 machine with some MSDOS Gaming (late 90s games)" leaves it a bit open. You really do benefit from SB Live or the like with games from 1998 onwards.

Yeah, I‘m gonna leave this to you then (as I only have really old experience not fresh and proper one) 😉

Sombrero wrote on 2023-05-17, 09:13:

Edit: I noticed you have 440BX board. I don't know was I just unlucky but I couldn't get Audigy 2 card to work well with my 440BX motherboard. Works fine on other later system. Could still work with your board, just thought to mention that if you decide to use it.

I haven't yet tested the Audigy 2 in this board, so will let you know if I do try it out 😀

Sombrero wrote on 2023-05-17, 09:32:

Dominus wrote on 2023-05-17, 09:23:

Still wouldn’t bother for a Windows 95 machine with some DOS gaming 🤷‍♂️
Surely for a later Windows, especially XP

If the build is 200MHz Pentium or the like I agree with you. But the way he puts it "Win95/98 machine with some MSDOS Gaming (late 90s games)" leaves it a bit open. You really do benefit from SB Live or the like with games from 1998 onwards.

Sorry here is the specs:
P3 500Mhz Slot 1
Gigabyte GA-6BXC Intel 440BX Mobo, with AGP, PCI and ISO.
384 MB 133Mhz RAM.
Geforce MX4000 64MB AGP
SB Audigy PCI
Realtek 8139C PCI NIC.
CD/DVD Drive
2xSD Card IDE adapters

Currently have Win95 OSR2 on a SD card, seems to work most drivers save for the Audigy Firewire and a USB controller (the USB INF drivers don't seem to resolve this).
Would look to get Win98SE installed alongside (for my own pleasure of having them side by side).

Audigy + an ISA card would be ideal. There should be no complications configuring them; only install drivers for the PCI card in Windows, and only do your SET BLASTER params for the ISA card in pure DOS mode.

With that said, the difference the ISA card makes will depend on the games you're playing. Maybe you'll be perfectly happy with the Audigy in DOS, particularly as you're talking late DOS games.

Do some research with this great Doom music comparison video. The classic FM sound that will require an ISA card (or one of the very few PCI cards that also have OPL3) is at 20:52. https://youtu.be/YXFYWJ7dbz0

For your gameport, look at ebay listing 204031654524. I've tried a few of these generic ones with an Audigy and found all the pinouts to match. There used to be original Audigy ones floating around with just the DB15 connector, but I can't see any now.

Sombrero wrote on 2023-05-17, 09:13:

If cleaner output and EAX support for Windows games aren't enough, how about the 10-20 fps (iirc) advance PCI sound cards have over ISA sound cards in games. According to Phils computer lab, can't remember what games he used for testing.

Au contraire! 😀 Depending on the actual PCI card, ISA cards are in fact faster. (See also the graphs starting at 6:04)

HanSolo wrote on 2023-05-17, 12:35:

Sombrero wrote on 2023-05-17, 09:13:

If cleaner output and EAX support for Windows games aren't enough, how about the 10-20 fps (iirc) advance PCI sound cards have over ISA sound cards in games. According to Phils computer lab, can't remember what games he used for testing.

Au contraire! 😀 Depending on the actual PCI card, ISA cards are in fact faster. (See also the graphs starting at 6:04)

Oh crap, you're right 😬

I don't know how my brain cooked up that 10-20 fps difference for PCI cards out of nowhere, I might have to stop sniffing glue.

For Windows the Audigy 2 will gives you EAX4 support over the original Audigy's EAX3

If this really matters comes down to which games you play
https://list.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_games_with_EAX_support

If you boot into dos mode the Audigy 2 doesn't have official dos drivers but the modified Audigy drivers (which are just modified Live! drivers) work fine
https://www.vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fil … 383&menustate=0
Both cards support playing dos games from within windows

ISA soundcard for dos is preferable, maybe.
Games that use digital sound or CD audio for music (eg C&C) your not going to notice any difference.
Older games that use Adlib or MIDI will sound nicer on an ISA card as the Creative PCI cards don't do an amazing job on emulating this.
BUT you then have the hassle of having to connect speakers to 2 sound cards either via line in/line out from one card to another, using a mixer, or whatever.
If it's just the occasional game it may be just easier to use the Audigy

chinny22 wrote on 2023-05-19, 09:34:

For Windows the Audigy 2 will gives you EAX4 support over the original Audigy's EAX3

Creative eventually released an official driver update for the original Audigy which also gave it EAX4 capabilities.

Nowadays, if you use DanielK's Audigy driver pack, you get that functionality out of the box.

Thanks everyone for the excellent advice.
I got gifted a awe 64 value isa card so I'm using that now (plus it had the joystick port). I've reinstalled the os to be safe side and I'll keep the audigy for a later machine

Very nice friend, AWE 64 even the Value is worth a bit of money! Its a good choice for dos.
it is a bit basic for windows gaming, alot of people have both an ISA card for dos and a Live/Audigy for Windows if you wanted to go down that route

chinny22 wrote on 2023-05-23, 08:38:

Very nice friend, AWE 64 even the Value is worth a bit of money! Its a good choice for dos.
it is a bit basic for windows gaming, alot of people have both an ISA card for dos and a Live/Audigy for Windows if you wanted to go down that route

Hi, been trying to read up on this, to try and get the best of both worlds.
The ISA card (Value AWE64) seems like it will handle everything, save for soundfonts since it will only except 512kb sf I believe.
Final Fantasy VII was a game I was hoping to relive my SF MIDI memory, however that wants the 4MB soundfont to be loaded which fails.
I could run the SB Audigy card in there, but would like to know how to run both cards in Windows DOS, (SB Audigy for Midi and the SB AWE for the rest).
Or worst case just windowed dos games use the AWE and Windows uses the Audigy?
Some people play around with line in from one to the other. But is that needed?

Hmm, I remember that at least in Windows you could load much bigger soundfonts with the AWE