VOGONS


First post, by Vendest

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Hi, I plan to build an old configuration based on MS-5158 Socket 7 with a Pentium BP80503200 or A80502133 which are already available.
For the OS I am considering Win 95/98, maybe the later because I already have a NOS 80gb IDE HDD.
I would like to seek recommendation for the RAM and Graphic card.

Based on the motherboard user manual:
RAM
72-pin SIMM x 2, 168-pin DIMM x 3 / max 256mb
I thinking to get 3 x 64mb of PC66 SDRAM however PC66 is now hard to come by, it is certainly easier to find 128mb stick of PC100/133. Would that work?
Graphic Card
I found that part confusing, the motherboard provides 4 x ISA slots in 16 bit and 4 x PCI slots in 32 bit.
The only 32 bit PCI card that I can find is an ATI Rage XL 8mb , can I use a 64 bit graphic card in a 32 bit slot? That would allow more options to choose from.

I should mention that I am not looking at gaming on this build.

Thanks,

Reply 1 of 19, by paradigital

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I’ve got an ATi Mach 64 in my Socket 7 build. Seems to work well with decent image quality.

Not sure what you are meaning with 64-bit card and 32-bit slot? 64-bit PCI video cards are pretty rare (I’ve got a single PCI-X video card - Matrox Parhelia). If you mean memory bus width, then that doesn’t really matter.

Last edited by paradigital on 2023-06-14, 17:27. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 2 of 19, by The Serpent Rider

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I thinking to get 3 x 64mb of PC66 SDRAM however PC66 is now hard to come by, it is certainly easier to find 128mb stick of PC100/133. Would that work?

You need one SDRAM PC100/PC133 64Mb stick. Anything more will decrease performance, due to caching limitation of 430TX chipset.

The only 32 bit PCI card that I can find is an ATI Rage XL 8mb , can I use a 64 bit graphic card in a 32 bit slot?

I think you need to read PCI and PCI-X specification to avoid further confusion.

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Reply 3 of 19, by rasz_pl

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Vendest wrote on 2023-06-14, 17:22:

The only 32 bit PCI card that I can find is an ATI Rage XL 8mb , can I use a 64 bit graphic card in a 32 bit slot?

different bits 😀 any old 1-2 MB PCI card will be fine for such a system, you will by playing 2D and software rendered 3D titles only anyway.

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Reply 4 of 19, by Vendest

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Thanks for the replies, indeed I got confused between the memory bus width and type of PCI slot. After doing some reading it got much clearer.
I can see that most PCI graphic cards are compatible with both 3.3v and 5v looking at the 2 slits on the edge connector.

You need one SDRAM PC100/PC133 64Mb stick. Anything more will decrease performance, due to caching limitation of 430TX chipset.

Just to clarify, each stick should not exceed 64MB but it is fine to install 3 sticks (total 192MB)?

Edit: just read about the 430TX chipset, I think you mean that while 256MB of DRAM is supported there is a bottleneck due to maximum cache of 64MB.

Reply 5 of 19, by rasz_pl

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Vendest wrote on 2023-06-15, 03:28:

Just to clarify, each stick should not exceed 64MB but it is fine to install 3 sticks (total 192MB)?

you wont find single game that runs good on BP80503200 but requires or even notices more than 32MB of ram.

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 6 of 19, by Chkcpu

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Hi Vendest,

This MS-5158 is indeed a great ATX socket 7 board for a retro build. 😀
However, the 1997/1998 BIOS on this board has several limitations, but I can help you with that.
Looking at https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/msi-ms … 8-tx5#downloads I see a long list of BIOS versions. The AMI BIOSes are for Chinese and Japanese users, so I’m looking at the Award BIOSes only.

I know of only two MS-5158 board revisions, Rev 1. and Rev 1.1.
The W5158MS V1.4 040898 BIOS is the latest for Rev 1. boards and
the W5158MS V2.1 040898 BIOS is meant for the Rev 1.1 board.
Apart from a small difference in the Hardware Monitor support, these BIOSes are identical.

There are 2 limitations/bugs in these 040898 Award BIOSes that affect your build:
- The 32GB IDE HDD limit bug
- The Windows 98 UDMA bug
Another limitation is in the K6-2(+)/-III(+) support, but that is of no factor when using a Pentium or Pentium-MMX.

Because you are planning to use an 80GB IDE drive, the 32GB BIOS limit is the most annoying.
The UDMA bug causes your BIOS to report a higher UDMA mode than the i430TX chipset supports. Windows 98 doesn’t like that and disables all IDE DMA transfer modes and operates the drive in a slower PIO 3 or 4 mode.

There are fixes for these bugs. Let us know what is your MS-5158 board revision and which BIOS version you are using now, so I can select the correct BIOS update for you.

Jan

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Reply 7 of 19, by Repo Man11

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There is a BIOS patched to support 128 gigabyte hard drives on the old Wim's page that I don't see on the Retroweb page; "MSI MS-5158 PCB 1. (NOT 1.1) 10/28/97-i430TX-2A59IM4CC-00 W5158MS V1.4 040898 10:59:44 128 GB Rainbow." Including it just in case.

https://web.archive.org/web/20051105011452/ht … ex.php?count=-1

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Reply 9 of 19, by Tetrium

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Vendest wrote on 2023-06-14, 17:22:
Hi, I plan to build an old configuration based on MS-5158 Socket 7 with a Pentium BP80503200 or A80502133 which are already avai […]
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Hi, I plan to build an old configuration based on MS-5158 Socket 7 with a Pentium BP80503200 or A80502133 which are already available.
For the OS I am considering Win 95/98, maybe the later because I already have a NOS 80gb IDE HDD.
I would like to seek recommendation for the RAM and Graphic card.

Based on the motherboard user manual:
RAM
72-pin SIMM x 2, 168-pin DIMM x 3 / max 256mb
I thinking to get 3 x 64mb of PC66 SDRAM however PC66 is now hard to come by, it is certainly easier to find 128mb stick of PC100/133. Would that work?
Graphic Card
I found that part confusing, the motherboard provides 4 x ISA slots in 16 bit and 4 x PCI slots in 32 bit.
The only 32 bit PCI card that I can find is an ATI Rage XL 8mb , can I use a 64 bit graphic card in a 32 bit slot? That would allow more options to choose from.

I should mention that I am not looking at gaming on this build.

Thanks,

What are you gonna be doing on this system?

And what you will want to get will also depend on your budget.

If you're not gonna game but only gonna use it for something like an inbetweener (dunno what it's commonly called but it's a pc used to back up data from old media that newer computers have more trouble accessing), you can probably get away with almost any PCI graphics card that will work with Windows 9x.
Not all PCI graphics cards may be compatible with boards from that era. If the ATI Rage XL 8mb is one of those newly assembled ones, iirc those seemed to be one of the cards with issues with the older boards (mostly boards predating AGP) but I don't know this from my own personal experience, only because this was reported by some other users here on Vogons before.
You can probably skip on getting a 3DFX card. Not because these would be a bad pick but more because of their current prices and with no gaming you'll probably not be needing one. IF you however happen to have a Voodoo 3 laying around, that would probably be a good pick.

Regarding the RAM, what's been explained above is correct, but I'd still recommend you get multiple of the 64MB SDRAM modules (be sure to get ones with 8 chips on one side (in a very few cases they may have 4 chips on each side, but mechanically all 8 chips can still be connected electronically to one side only)). These modules should be very common and will usually be PC-100 (and these modules should also be quite cheap as well, so not much reason to pay shipping for just 1 module if ytou can get 3 or 4 for barely any more money).
The reasoning is that in rare cases, a board may not like a particular memory module (for whatever reason) or getting a defective one will not stop development of your build right there as you wait for a replacement. Also having more memory available you can still try out using more than 64MB and see how performance is in your particular case.
Non-cached memory will be slower, but it will still be faster than using the swap file in case you end up using much more RAM with whatever it is you plan to be doing with your rig.

I'd probably pick the 80503200 (Pentium 1 MMX @ 200MHz), unless the one you already have is one that has the tiny HSF glued on top of it and turns out to be too loud for my tastes.
What CPU heatsinks do you have atm? If you need a HSF, you can also probably use a s370 and even a sA HSF as s7, s370 and sA all have the same dimensions. However, that doesn't mean that all of them will fit. But at least you have a lot of options when it comes to CPU cooling and with a Pentium 1 you don't need to be too picky.

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
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Reply 10 of 19, by dionb

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Vendest wrote on 2023-06-15, 03:28:

Thanks for the replies, indeed I got confused between the memory bus width and type of PCI slot. After doing some reading it got much clearer.
I can see that most PCI graphic cards are compatible with both 3.3v and 5v looking at the 2 slits on the edge connector.

In theory you're right, but be careful:

A lot of later PCI video cards have universal keying (2 slits), which implies supporting both 3.3V and 5V, but they fail to work if 3.3V isn't present.

I'd recommend rather going for something from roughly the same era as the board, eg 1997/1998. That's not just more 'authentic' but will also definitely work on a 5V-only PCI 2.1 bus.

Given scarcity and price I'd not focus on one specific card, but look at what is available to you for an amount you're prepared to pay, then look at suitability. Systems with a P200 on TX board would commonly have shipped with S3 Virge/DX or ATi Rage Pro cards, although there was lot more diversity in the late '90s than now and you could also have good cards with chipsets like Verite Rendition, nVidia Riva 128, Matrox Millennium, Intel i740 or 3DLabs Permedia (2).

Any of the above would work fine for general Windows operation. You say you're not going to be gaming, so the limitations of a P200 and the plethora of different proprietary 3D APIs aren't relevant to this build.

What would be relevant for non-gaming desktop work:
- resolution and colour depth support: this is determined by amount of video memory. 4MB gives you 1024x768@24b/32b colour, 8MB lets you go up to 1280x1024@32b if your monitor can handle it.
- refresh rate support: this depends on the card RAMDAC and the capabilities of your monitor. A typical card of the era will have at least a 125MHz RAMDAC, which is fine for any refresh rate at 1024x768, but at 1280x1024, you would need at least 150MHz RAMDAC to do 85Hz refresh, and at 1600x1200 you would need a 220MHz RAMDAC to do the same.
- good (2d) image quality: the most difficult one to quantify, as it depends on analog circuitry on your cards, which means it can differ a lot between cards with the same chip from different vendors. Cheap noname S3 Virge cards have a particularly reputation here, but other S3 Virge cards (from brands like Diamond, Miro and Elsa) can be excellent. Other good brands are Matrox and Number Nine, and ATi cards tend to be decent too. STB can be a bit of a mixed bag.

Note that the 2d image quality and refresh rate really depend on your monitor: with a crappy 14" low-contrast shadow mask that struggles to give you 800x600@75Hz, you won't notice any difference between cards. But at 1024x768@85Hz you will start to notice differences, and with a late high-end Trinitron/Diamondtron aperture grille CRT that can go up to 1600x1200, you really *REALLY* need to choose a card with extremely good analog components. Be aware that such high resolutions are a corner case and require special hardware. Don't worry about it if using more regular 1997-era monitors.

You need one SDRAM PC100/PC133 64Mb stick. Anything more will decrease performance, due to caching limitation of 430TX chipset.

Just to clarify, each stick should not exceed 64MB but it is fine to install 3 sticks (total 192MB)?

Edit: just read about the 430TX chipset, I think you mean that while 256MB of DRAM is supported there is a bottleneck due to maximum cache of 64MB.
[/quote]
Correct.

The impact of that limitation depends on your operating system, and predictably, Win9x and DOS suffer most.

It's pretty simple: if you use less than 64MB of RAM, performance will be better if you don't install more than 64MB. However even uncached RAM is much faster than thrashing to HDD, so if you do use over 64MB and that HDD LED is constantly on, add some more regardless.

If you're not going to be gaming with this system, what are you going to use it for? Might help us to judge how relevant certain factors are.

Reply 11 of 19, by Vendest

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One of the purpose for building this rig is to manage files in Dos and ability to use old software working only on Win9x to create floppy disk for some 8-bit computer from Japan (Sharp X1, PC-8801, MSX)
I can manage most files using either WinXP and Greaseweazle interface but some tools were designed for Win9x.
Another purpose is that I simply enjoy building and sometime fixing old tech, indeed gaming is not the main goal at the moment, thanks to alternatives such as MiSTer FPGA.

The graphics card available now is unfortunately a cheap newly assembled ATI Rage XL 8mb, hence I will be looking to get a proper PCI card as per Tetrium and dionb recommendations (and without breaking the bank)

For the RAM I just got hold of 2 x LG Semicon 16MB EDO SIMM and 1 x Hyundai PC100 64MB SDRAM (8 memory modules on 1 side), in the user manual it is mentioned that 3.3V SDRAM and 5V EDO/FP should not be used together.
Will try to secure another PC100 64MB SDRAM.

Both P133 and P200 have a heat sink but no fan. It is another part that I need to find.

Thanks again for the recommendations.

Edit: My monitor is not a CRT but a LCD Dell 1708FP in 1280 x 1024 at 60 Hz that I use with a WinXP build.

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Reply 12 of 19, by Tetrium

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Vendest wrote on 2023-06-19, 17:32:
One of the purpose for building this rig is to manage files in Dos and ability to use old software working only on Win9x to crea […]
Show full quote

One of the purpose for building this rig is to manage files in Dos and ability to use old software working only on Win9x to create floppy disk for some 8-bit computer from Japan (Sharp X1, PC-8801, MSX)
I can manage most files using either WinXP and Greaseweazle interface but some tools were designed for Win9x.
Another purpose is that I simply enjoy building and sometime fixing old tech, indeed gaming is not the main goal at the moment, thanks to alternatives such as MiSTer FPGA.

The graphics card available now is unfortunately a cheap newly assembled ATI Rage XL 8mb, hence I will be looking to get a proper PCI card as per Tetrium and dionb recommendations (and without breaking the bank)

For the RAM I just got hold of 2 x LG Semicon 16MB EDO SIMM and 1 x Hyundai PC100 64MB SDRAM (8 memory modules on 1 side), in the user manual it is mentioned that 3.3V SDRAM and 5V EDO/FP should not be used together.
Will try to secure another PC100 64MB SDRAM.

Both P133 and P200 have a heat sink but no fan. It is another part that I need to find.

Thanks again for the recommendations.

Edit: My monitor is not a CRT but a LCD Dell 1708FP in 1280 x 1024 at 60 Hz that I use with a WinXP build.

Don't try to run your board with both types of memory (SIMM and DIMM) installed at the same time unless the manual of your board specifically mentions being able to do so!
Usually you can install only one type or the other, not both (some boards can btw, but better safe than sorry).

EDIT: Hadn't read all of it but happy to see you were already aware of this 🙂I just wanted to warn you ASAP before something unfortunate were to happen, so to say 😜

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 13 of 19, by Tetrium

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Vendest wrote on 2023-06-19, 17:32:

Both P133 and P200 have a heat sink but no fan. It is another part that I need to find.

Thanks again for the recommendations.

Edit: My monitor is not a CRT but a LCD Dell 1708FP in 1280 x 1024 at 60 Hz that I use with a WinXP build.

The left CPU is not glued together with such a heatsink from the factory btw. You should be able to remove that heatsink from the CPU (may be stuck quite well).
The right one is like that from the factory. Did it come with the fan?

The left heatsink should be sufficient for your Pentium 133, but I'd recommend having a fan aimed at it as even with a 486 DX4 (using such a heatsink) mine ended up running very hot after a while.
It looks large but should be one of those very early s7 heatsinks with very thin base compared to later s370 heatsinks.

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 14 of 19, by dionb

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A lot depends on case airflow. A heatsink like that will do fine if there's unobstructed cool air over it. If it's stuck in a claustrophobic babyAT case with ribbon cables messed over it, it might get a bit too hot.

Reply 15 of 19, by Vendest

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The right one did not come with a fan, I was however able to remove the heatsink.
I've purchased a graphics card ELSA Winner 3000-L - S3 ViRGE/VX.

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Reply 16 of 19, by dionb

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Vendest wrote on 2023-06-21, 17:07:

The right one did not come with a fan, I was however able to remove the heatsink.
I've purchased a graphics card ELSA Winner 3000-L - S3 ViRGE/VX.

Great choice!

The Virge/VX gets a lot of flack in DOS gaming community as it's actually slower than the original Virge, let alone /DX and /GX in DOS, due to VRAM as opposed to DRAM architecture. But in Windows it's the faster option, even if that's not relevant for this use case. What is relevant is that the VRAM-based boards were more expensive, so generally had better analog circuitry - and ELSA was a premium manufacturer too. I'd expect a nice crisp image from this card 😀

Reply 17 of 19, by Vendest

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Bad news for me as I was conned into buying a motherboard Ms-5158 that never shipped. Trying to get a refund.

Starting from scratch with the motherboard, I am eyeing at a TMC TI5VG+ with a VIA MVP3 chipset which seems to offer better features than 430TX.
Are there known caveats about this board?
Thanks

Reply 18 of 19, by Chkcpu

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Vendest wrote on 2023-06-23, 16:27:

Bad news for me as I was conned into buying a motherboard Ms-5158 that never shipped. Trying to get a refund.

Bummer, I hope you can get your money back.

Starting from scratch with the motherboard, I am eyeing at a TMC TI5VG+ with a VIA MVP3 chipset which seems to offer better features than 430TX.
Are there known caveats about this board?
Thanks

The TMC TI5VG+ is a great Super Socket 7 board and I have reports that it runs well with a K6-III+/500 overclocked to 600MHz. No caveats that I know about.
For optimum performance I would use 128MB of RAM to stay within the L2 Cacheable range of the MVP3 chipset, although with 1MB L2 cache in Write-Through mode you can cache up to 256MB.

I addition to the great Videocard advise by @Tetrium and @dionb, you can also go for an AGP card on the TI5VG+.

BIOS support is fine for this board. The TI5VG+ can have either an 1Mbit (128KB) or a 2Mbit (256KB) BIOS Flashchip. For both versions there is a (patched) BIOS with full 128GiB HDD and K6-2+/III+ support.

I hope this board is in good condition and that you can get it for a reasonable price. 😉
Jan

CPU Identification utility
The Unofficial K6-2+ / K6-III+ page

Reply 19 of 19, by Vendest

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Just a quick update on the socket 7 build and parts I did received so far.
The seller finally sent the Ms-5158 and it works well.
I flashed the patched bios as recommended above. Indeed it does now recognize the 80gb HDD.
Chassis and power fan pin headers are not populated so I'll work on that next.
Also happy to report that the S3 ViRGE/VX works quite well too!

Waiting for the TMC TI5VG+ next. Ending up with 2 boards was not part of the plan. Maybe I'll prepare a better build with an AMD K6 and an AGP graphics card.

Quick question, is it possible to reduce the memory test count to 1 in the bios? The memory count starts 3 times in a row.

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