Check my replies above. I already clarified about the com1 address.
It really is com1 on 3f8.
Of course i am using the stason page info.
Controller does not work if JP5 is set to “others”. Storage device does not get recognized and POST hangs.
Tried both trusted ATX with AT adapter and normal trusted AT PSUs.

Motherboard is one of those late compact assemblies. OPTi chipset. It is basically jumperles.
Not sure about its exact model.

pshipkov wrote on 2023-06-17, 01:34:

I mentioned in my first post that the controller and mouse are fully working.
The issue is with the mobo.

Checked the isa pins - voltages and frequencies check-out.

I'm not asking for a voltage or frequency test on pin B24, There should be activity, signal going from low to high and high to low whenever there is serial data coming in.
So it's best tested together with the loopback.
Reason is, interrupts on ISA are edge triggered. If something else on the mainboard is causing the signal to stay stuck high or low, no interrupts can be handled by the mainboard.

Will run the suggested loopback tests soon. The one with terminal +2 connected pins will be first. The second approach with fema […]
Show full quote

Will run the suggested loopback tests soon.
The one with terminal +2 connected pins will be first.
The second approach with female connector will wait for the connector to arrive.

I have a Terminal app in DosNavigator. I dont remember ever using it in the distant past. It was not obvious what i have to do really.
Cannot even remember what DOS terminals i used back in the day. Probably some telnet and ssh ports for dos.
Any suggestion what should i try ?

erhm. back in the day we used telemate or terminate, or telix, or...
I never heard of dos navigator, so can't help ya there, but if it's for serial/modem communication it should be usable.

I simply went over the voltage pins and pin 20 of the isa bus.
But your note for the irq pins is welcome. This is what i will be watching for.
Thanks for the program names.
Will share the outcome of the tests soon.

pshipkov wrote on 2023-06-17, 02:04:

Tried both trusted ATX with AT adapter and normal trusted AT PSUs.

Good, but did you check the voltages on DTR and RTS lines? Preferably compare those with voltages on a system in which the mouse works. That way you can rule out PSU, mobo and all the connectors/slots along the way.
Another way is to run some terminal program (like TERM9x in NC) and open the mouse COM port (1200 7N1) and see if moving it around generate any output.

Voltage is i4.7-4.8 range. Same values make things work in other mobos.
Will follow up your term9x suggestion. Seems to be software only option which makes it easier to do.
Thanks.

I set Term9x COM1, 1200, 7N1.
Status is always offline.
Do i need to do something about that ?
Can you clarify the steps please ?
Thanks.

I didn't mean 5V (and frankly 4.7V is kinda on the low side, are you using ATX PSU with unloaded 3V3 perhaps?) - check -12V line. And +12V as well. These are used for the output on serial lines.

Ignore the offline status, mouse will not set DSR or CTS so the terminal program thinks nothing is connected. But moving the mouse should still generate some random characters on the screen. If nothing happens make sure you have Xon/Xoff disabled in port config (you can also try disabling RTS/CTS although RTS should be set, but the mouse might just work with DTR).

Then try different ports (COM2, COM3, COM4) but if the card works then I would expect to see some data. COM2 is worth trying though because it's different IO and different IRQ.

Tried this on a working setup - yes, there is some spamming in the console.
But the same does not happen with the motherboard in question here.

Noticed something about the CTMOUSE.EXE driver.
In the working system CTMOUSE /M reports "Installed at COM1 (03F8h/IRQ4) in Microsoft mouse mode". (or something like that)
But in the problematic mobo it reports "Installed at COM1 (03F8h/IRQ4) in Mouse systems mode".

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+-12,22V - which is ok.
Currently i am using the ATX PSU with adapter for AT.
It produces slightly lower +-5 voltage. It was a problem once.
That's why i checked with trusted AT PSU that produces 5.0V solid.
No difference in this case.

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So this looks like some physical damage somewhere.
At the same time video and sound cards work fine.

Is there a convention or rules which data lines on the ISA bus pass the mouse signals ?

Have you tried with a different serial I/O card? I understand you said the card is known good, but I'm theorizing it may be unable to drive the bus on this specific motherboard

Tried several cards. It is not the cards.
At this point i am pretty sure it is the motherboard.

Well there is nothing fundamentally different about how a serial UART communicates on ISA. It does interrupt based PIO on the low byte of the data bus like every other 8 bit thing

SInce you have not been able to identify the board, maybe it is a special OEM type that used only specific I/O cards due to bios and board design. Or the board has a major chipset issue......just a guess.
added: am suprised you did not post a picture of the board, most of us would have by now 😀

Just read through these 2 pages. Lots of technical suggestions early on. If your board was in my hands and I was having your issues, the first few things I would have tried were:
a) see if I can get Rio444's PS/2-serial emulator card working with a PS/2 mouse Another PS/2 Mouse ISA (ISA8) card adapter
b) see if I can get a bus mouse working with a bus mouse card, e.g. https://www.ebay.ca/itm/324349817430

I can imagine a) failing if it is a hardware issue/conflict with the motherboard, but b) would likely still work.

c) Disable (via jumper) everything on your multi I/O card except for COM1 and floppy. Do all testing from from a floppy disk, and
d) Use a Logitech trackball mouse with their driver package 7.3. Edit the mouserdrv.ini as appropriate
e) If you don't have a Logitech mouse, try my fallback driver mouse.com located in Mouse.rar. Also, I always use Test.exe to test my mice. It is a quick DOS app w/gui. It is also in Mouse.rar
f) try a modified KBC circuit and switch to a PS/2 mouse. I personally don't use serial mice on any system these days.

Good feedback.
I dont have a lot of time to allocate fixing this issue, so looking for potential shortcuts - something as prepackaged as possible.
The B option looks like a good potential solution, but something in your wording suggests additional mods are needed, for the keyboard controller, etc.
Can you clarify ?

Option A - does not look like this is ready to use, but need to at least partially work it out with forum members, or go through a lengthy process of fabing pcbs and so on. Or am i missing something ?

Option C - that was already tried.

Option D and E are low chance of success. I think there is some hardware issue, potentially a cold joint or physical damage in the inner layers of the board.

Option F is not clear to me. Is it related to option B ?

—-

Will provide picture of the mobo. it wont provide any clues, thats why didnt do it already. A boring looking compact late 386 assembly.

pshipkov wrote on 2023-06-18, 07:28:

Good feedback.
I dont have a lot of time to allocate fixing this issue, so looking for potential shortcuts - something as prepackaged as possible.

Except for option F, all are out-of-the-box ready.

pshipkov wrote on 2023-06-18, 07:28:

The B option looks like a good potential solution, but something in your wording suggests additional mods are needed, for the keyboard controller, etc.
Can you clarify ?

Each of the options are independent of each other. I don't think I wrote mods were needed for Option B.
You buy a bus mouse controller card: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/324349817430
You buy a bus mouse: https://www.ebay.com/itm/295752266015
And install. The Logitech driver I attached should also work with bus mice. Bus mice are now quite uncommon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_mouse Most people think they are PS/2 mice, but they are their own protocal. I suggest using a Microsoft bus mouse card with a Microsoft bus mouse and a Logitech bus mouse card with a Logitech bus mouse, although I was able to use the Microsoft card with my Logitech bus mouse, something worked better with the Logitech bus card, but I forget what now.

pshipkov wrote on 2023-06-18, 07:28:

Option A - does not look like this is ready to use, but need to at least partially work it out with forum members, or go through a lengthy process of fabing pcbs and so on. Or am i missing something ?

Best not to look at the first picture on page 1 and assume that this is where things are at now. A few pages down, the assembled units: Re: Another PS/2 Mouse ISA (ISA8) card adapter , contact Rio444. He was selling them fully assembled in the past, but not sure if the conflict in Ukraine will limit shipments from Russia.

pshipkov wrote on 2023-06-18, 07:28:

Option C - that was already tried.

I thought you didn't use floppy drives? haha. How many different I/O cards and mice did you try with everything disabled except for floppy and COM1? Which mouse brand and models did you try?

pshipkov wrote on 2023-06-18, 07:28:

Option D and E are low chance of success. I think there is some hardware issue, potentially a cold joint or physical damage in the inner layers of the board.

If a cold joint, then try a a few different ISA slots.

pshipkov wrote on 2023-06-18, 07:28:

Option F is not clear to me. Is it related to option B ?

The two options couldn't be more different.

Option F is to use a device that plugs into your KBC socket to allow for native PS/2 mice to plug in. I made these which took some time: Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

keropi made another: Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

I think maxtherabbit made his own and posted the gerbers, but I haven't tried this myself.
Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller
Latest gerbers: Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller
Maybe he has some extra ones he can sell to save yourself some time?

Once you've assembled the KBC device, you tell your motherboard that you have a PS/2 mouse either by modifying the BIOS (AWARD BIOSes are easy, AMI's are tricky, but jakethompson1 wrote a tutorial on how to do it) or by using PS2SUPPC.COM, which is a DOS TSR made by Rio444 here: Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller I prefer to mod the BIOS since I usually install NT 3.51 or NT4. If you just use DOS/W31/W95, PS2SUPPC is good enough.

—-

pshipkov wrote on 2023-06-18, 07:28:

Will provide picture of the mobo. it wont provide any clues, thats why didnt do it already. A boring looking compact late 386 assembly.

Mostly psychological. If a help thread has no photos, people will ask. Secondly, maybe there is an obvious component missing that someone will spot (remember the missing ISA slot corner).

If there is, indeed, some problem with the motherboard which you are unable to find, I think using a bus mouse card with bus mouse would be the quickest option to find a workaround. In the mean time, I think it is a good practice to have some of the PS/2 KBC mod adaptors around for troubleshooting purposes.

pshipkov wrote on 2023-06-17, 22:55:

+-12,22V - which is ok.

It is, but just making sure here - did you check those on the mobo directly? On the ISA slot pins preferably to make sure the power delivery from PSU connector to ISA slots is not somehow interrupted.

pshipkov wrote on 2023-06-17, 22:55:

Is there a convention or rules which data lines on the ISA bus pass the mouse signals ?

No, the mouse is just operating over serial port and that requires data, address and control lines to work. If the VGA card works you have most of it working well except maybe interrupts (or DMA but that is not used by serial ports).

You can run a few more checks. First you can make a simple serial loopback test - just put a piece of wire in pins 2 and 3 of the serial port connector. That will connect TxD and RxD together so you should see any characters you type in terminal program being sent to screen (when local echo is disabled). Note just this connection will still show as "offline" in TERM9x, that is normal.
If this doesn't work please measure the voltages on all 9 pins of the serial port connector, you can compare it with the working system. Might give you some clue. Other then ground pin the others should have voltages close to +12 or -12 volts. The reason I'm insisting on voltage checks is because that's easy to do and doesn't require any special software or hardware other than a meter and the system in question.

feipoa wrote on 2023-06-18, 08:52:

Maybe he has some extra ones he can sell to save yourself some time?

I can do that. Will need that picture of the board to verify fitment though.

No one wants to read a book without pictures bro

Ok, serial port voltages:

The ISA controller in use on this particular board:
0, 11.4V, 10.9V, 100mV, 100mV, 100mV, 100mV, -11.4V, 100mV

The same ISA controller in a trusted system (built around Asus VLI-486SV2GX4):
0, -10.8V, -10.8V, 100mV, 100mV, 100mV, 100mV, -10.8V, 100mV
In that Asus VLI based rig i have a Promise EIDE 2300Plus, its serial port pins have the next voltages:
0, 11.8V, 11.8V, 2.2V, 450mV, 450mV, 450mV, -11.8V, 450mV
To confirm - mouse works just fine when the ISA controller is inserted in the Asus VLI system.

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In response to the request for picture, here comes nothing:

pshipkov wrote on 2023-06-18, 16:31:

Ok, serial port voltages: […]
Show full quote

Ok, serial port voltages:

The ISA controller in use on this particular board:
0, 11.4V, 10.9V, 100mV, 100mV, 100mV, 100mV, -11.4V, 100mV

The same ISA controller in a trusted system (built around Asus VLI-486SV2GX4):
0, -10.8V, -10.8V, 100mV, 100mV, 100mV, 100mV, -10.8V, 100mV
In that Asus VLI based rig i have a Promise EIDE 2300Plus, its serial port pins have the next voltages:
0, 11.8V, 11.8V, 2.2V, 450mV, 450mV, 450mV, -11.8V, 450mV
To confirm - mouse works just fine when the ISA controller is inserted in the Asus VLI system.

---

In response to the request for picture, here comes nothing:

my ps/2 interposer should fit there, only catch is if you want to use socket(s) it will no doubt stackup too high for any ISA cards which have the "apron" at the back

pshipkov wrote on 2023-06-18, 16:31:

Have you tried the different IRQ settings? ie 4 is default for com1, but you can select 3 & 5.
You will have to tell ctmouse this irq. It will not auto detect it. Same goes for any terminal program. those will also not figure out that the serial port is on another irq and thus cannot be used to test with a deviating from default IRQ.

oh and are you always using ctmouse /M ? I saw you typed that in a previous comment though I fail to see the use of it for your setup.