VOGONS


First post, by mkarcher

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The availability of 50-pin SCSI hard drives, especially working ones, is poor the last years. On the other hand, SCSI drives with 80-pin SCA connectors are cheap and common. In the end, it's all SCSI, so why not just use SCA drives in retro PCs? I bought a couple of narrow + wide to SCA adapters off ebay. They look like this:

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They map the pins between the 50-pin and the 68-pin SCSI connector as one would expect. They do not short the ground pins to each other, so they should be good enough for both single-ended and differential SCSI. Let's not talk about HVD ("high voltage differential", usually just called "differential SCSI" back in the days before LVD), as there is are no HVD SCA devices, as far as I know. So, don't make the mistake of looking at HVD pinouts when you try to understand the connections on this adapter. LVD and HVD use different pinouts, with LVD being very similar to single-ended if you ground all negative data pins. This adapter routes 75 percent of the traces on the front side, and the remaining 25 percent on the back side. The back side just contain the traces that need to be routed through the pins of the wide SCSI connectors to the respective last pin row. The layout of this adapter looks quite nicely and shows how the different connectors relate to each other. Wide SCSI just having some extra pins at each end, and being very similar to narrow SCSI in the central part. SCA being very similar to wide SCSI, but without the TERMPWR and GND connectors in the center, but having a lot of power pins on the outer pins instead.

These adapters worked quite well with my 1542CF, but failed to work properly on Disruptor's 19160. Luckily, Disruptor has active terminators with LEDs indicating the bus operation mode (LVD or SE). With an SE-only hard disk connected to that adapter, the terminator still showed "LVD". This is wrong. Running the bus at LVD with a SE drive connected explains why the SCSI bus scan in SCSISelect hung. Connecting a non-SCA SE drive to the same bus made the bus run in SE mode, and also made the SCA drive work. The same is also happens with LVD SCA drives: They only work when you connect an SE device to the same bus.

This description likely points already to one primary suspect: The DIFFSENS line on the SCSI bus. It works like this: single-ended devices are supposed to connect DIFFSENS to ground. LVD devices do not pull the line to any specific voltage. LVD terminators try to pull DIFFSENS to 1.3V. If they manage to do that, they know that no SE device is on the bus. In that case, the terminator operates in LVD mode an all connected LVD-capable device sense the 1.3V level on DIFFSENS and enable LVD operation. On the other hand, if the DIFFSENS pin is not driven to 1.3V, the bus is operating in single-ended mode, and LVD-capable devices operate in single-ended mode. In case DIFFSENS is not reaching an LVD-capable drive, that drive doesn't detect 1.3V and will operate in SE mode. Also, a SE drive connected to the bus with the DIFFSENS line not connected is unable to force the bus to single-ended operation. So this matches the observed behaviour: Devices only work if the bus is forced into SE mode by some other device. And now take a look at the pin-outs of SCA and classic SCSI cables: DIFFSENS is near the end on SCA (pin 46, the 6th pin on the second row of pins), but close to the center on wide (DIFFSENS on 16 of 34 pins on the first row of contacts) and narrow classic SCSI (DIFFSENS on the 11th of 25 contacts on the first row). A trace connecting DIFFSENS would need to snake around some connectors or routed using vias to cross other traces, but no such trace is visible. A multimeter confirms: No continuity on DIFFSENS.

This helps:

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Luckily, the DIFFSENS pin is at the outermost row of pins on the SCA connector, making it easy to add a bodge wire to that pin on the SCA component side, so soldering this added wire is an easy fix. It has been tested to make both SE drives and LVD drives, even LVD drives jumpered to "force SE" work perfectly with that adapter.

Reply 1 of 13, by Horun

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Nice work ! I have more than a few SCA adapters from a decade or so ago, most are SE only, a few are LVD only, is nice to know why 😀

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 2 of 13, by jakethompson1

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Does the conversion between SCA and parallel SCSI done by these adapters operate at a lower layer in the protocol than the SATA-IDE adapters do?

As has been discussed here before, the SATA-IDE adapters are filled with firmware that does a lot of conversion such that things like DMA will sometimes not work through the adapters. So they are more analogous to a proxy server than a switch bridging between 10BaseT and Gigabit Ethernet, so to speak.

Is it a better situation with SCSI?

Reply 3 of 13, by Horun

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Yes it is better for SCSI, No there is no signal conversions ! These are just physical adapters that convert the SCA (scsi wide + power) to standard 80 pin (or 50pin) with a side molex to supply power. Many servers used SCA built into back plane type so when swapping drive you just slipped one out and slip one in with out messing with cables.....

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 4 of 13, by jakethompson1

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Horun wrote on 2023-07-01, 01:24:

Yes it is better for SCSI, No there is no signal conversions ! These are just physical adapters that convert the SCA (scsi wide + power) to standard 80 pin (or 50pin) with a side molex to supply power. Many servers used SCA built into back plane type so when swapping drive you just slipped one out and slip one in with out messing with cables.....

Oh, I was thinking about SAS. Is there such a thing as SAS-SCSI or do the same things apply as SATA-IDE?

Reply 5 of 13, by Horun

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I do not know, have little experience with SAS. Being "serial scsi" not parallel, would think it would need signal conversion to adapt to an older parallel scsi controller.

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 6 of 13, by mkarcher

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Horun wrote on 2023-07-01, 01:24:

Yes it is better for SCSI, No there is no signal conversions ! These are just physical adapters that convert the SCA (scsi wide + power) to standard 80 pin (or 50pin) with a side molex to supply power. Many servers used SCA built into back plane type so when swapping drive you just slipped one out and slip one in with out messing with cables.....

Exactly. These 50/68-pin to SCA adapters are comparable to the 3.5"-to-2.5"-PATA adapters used mainly for laptop drives. The name "SCA" means "single connector attachment", and as you say, the main point of SCA is to make drive replacement as easy as possible. The adapter I show in this thread is actually two adapters in one: SCA (80 pin) to standard wide SCSI (68 pin), and standard wide SCSI to standard narrow SCSI (50 pin). The DIFFSENS connection is properly forwarded on the 68-pin to 50-pin part of that adapter, but missing on the 80-to-68-pin part of the adapter.

Reply 7 of 13, by mkarcher

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Horun wrote on 2023-06-30, 00:49:

Nice work ! I have more than a few SCA adapters from a decade or so ago, most are SE only, a few are LVD only, is nice to know why 😀

Before you start modifying your SE-only adapters by adding the bodge wire as I show in this thread, make sure that the SE-only adapters do not connect all those single-ended ground wires. The mod on this adapter only works because the odd-numbered pins on the 50-pin connector (corresponding to the pins numbered 1 to 34 on the HD68 connector and 47-73 on the SCA connector) are connected individually, despite most of them being GND on single-ended SCSI.

Reply 8 of 13, by Horun

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mkarcher wrote on 2023-07-01, 07:28:
Horun wrote on 2023-06-30, 00:49:

Nice work ! I have more than a few SCA adapters from a decade or so ago, most are SE only, a few are LVD only, is nice to know why 😀

Before you start modifying your SE-only adapters by adding the bodge wire as I show in this thread, make sure that the SE-only adapters do not connect all those single-ended ground wires. The mod on this adapter only works because the odd-numbered pins on the 50-pin connector (corresponding to the pins numbered 1 to 34 on the HD68 connector and 47-73 on the SCA connector) are connected individually, despite most of them being GND on single-ended SCSI.

Ok thanks. Will look mine over closely but probably wont modify any unless needed and fits your description. One with a removable Active term block, it's GND pins appear all connected together. This other one appears like yours so might be possible...

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Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 9 of 13, by mkarcher

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Horun wrote on 2023-07-01, 14:41:

This other one appears like yours so might be possible...

Yeah, it very much looks like that's the original, which my adapters are clones of. You might want to verify that DIFFSENS (pin 16 on wide, the one I soldered to which is likely connected to pin 21 on narrow, that is the 11th pin in the odd row) is not connected to any ground pin around it (on narrow: pins 19, 20 and 22 are ground; on wide: pin 50 is ground).

Reply 10 of 13, by Horun

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mkarcher wrote on 2023-07-01, 16:29:
Horun wrote on 2023-07-01, 14:41:

This other one appears like yours so might be possible...

Yeah, it very much looks like that's the original, which my adapters are clones of. You might want to verify that DIFFSENS (pin 16 on wide, the one I soldered to which is likely connected to pin 21 on narrow, that is the 11th pin in the odd row) is not connected to any ground pin around it (on narrow: pins 19, 20 and 22 are ground; on wide: pin 50 is ground).

Yes pin 16 on 68w is not grounded and does go to pin 21 on 50n. pin 46 on sca is NC. Thanks for the perfect explaination !! Used a micro pen marker to mark pin 16w and and 46 sca for future mod.

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 11 of 13, by Horun

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This one is buggered, would take a lot of trace cutting to make it work. You can still buy this XPL-065 C for SE and the XPL-065 F for LVD/SE (no 50pin, have one or two) from cables online but too expensive compared to those china clones....

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Reply 12 of 13, by mkarcher

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Horun wrote on 2023-07-01, 16:59:

This one is buggered, would take a lot of trace cutting to make it work. You can still buy this XPL-065 C for SE and the XPL-065 F for LVD/SE (no 50pin, have one or two) from cables online but too expensive compared to those china clones....

Indeed. It makes no sense to modify the XPL-065 C to support LVD. Nevertheless, the terminator add-on is a really cool feature: It's not your standard terminator for the end of the chain, but it's a terminator for the high data bits only, so this adapter can also be used to terminate a 16-bit (wide, 68-pin) SCSI bus that continues as 8-bit (narrow, 50-pin) SCSI bus. The cheap clone adapters do not offer this feature. You can still use the cheap ones to transition from narrow to wide, but only if you are not trying to use wide transfers on the wide side of the bus. This can make sense when you use a narrow host adapter, but want to connect some SCA and wide SCSI drives to it. Considering the current scarcity of narrow SCSI hard drives, connecting wide SCSI drives to a narrow host adapter starts to make sense, even if you can't use the full bandwidth provided by them.

If you don't need LVD, but high-byte termination is useful to you, you might consider buying the XPL-065C with terminator add-on, especially if your are in the US.

Reply 13 of 13, by Horun

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Yes a handy thing to have, specially for testing purposes. I dug around and found two more in my "various adapter" drawer, one is also CS Electronics 941135 (so have 2), other is SE only SCA-68w with buggered grounds like the one with term module.
Have a few in some computers too but not going to even look see what they are...too much work ;p. Thanks for the good info !

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun