Shponglefan wrote on 2023-07-10, 19:09:

Yes, you shouldn't have any issues with performance with a Pentium MMX 166 and Voodoo 1 for that era for gaming. […]
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retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-10, 06:15:

Would it be still powerfull enough to play some early glide games with a Voodoo 1 like Tomb Raider, Decent and some other games?

Yes, you shouldn't have any issues with performance with a Pentium MMX 166 and Voodoo 1 for that era for gaming.

Our family computer back in 1997 had that exact combo and we played a lot of 3D games back then.

There are always going to be faster options (Voodoo 2, faster processors, etc.), but then it becomes a question of whether you're looking for an authentic period correct experience, or just the fastest performance possible for a particular set of games.

Since the Pentium 166 is being mentioned, I just read something interesting this night..
The programmer of Power MSX (DOS-based) had upgraded his development PC from Pentium 166 to a K6-2 500 in year 2000 (or had planned it).
Apparently, in the place he lived (the other America), this was still an impressive CPU back then.
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By comparison, at home we (my family) had a mighty P3 733 at same time (but not for gaming, my father was a programmer).
So yeah, the period-correctness seems to have varied around the world, I guess. 🌍🌎🤷‍♂️

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-07-10, 19:09:

Yes, you shouldn't have any issues with performance with a Pentium MMX 166 and Voodoo 1 for that era for gaming. […]
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retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-10, 06:15:

Would it be still powerfull enough to play some early glide games with a Voodoo 1 like Tomb Raider, Decent and some other games?

Yes, you shouldn't have any issues with performance with a Pentium MMX 166 and Voodoo 1 for that era for gaming.

Our family computer back in 1997 had that exact combo and we played a lot of 3D games back then.

There are always going to be faster options (Voodoo 2, faster processors, etc.), but then it becomes a question of whether you're looking for an authentic period correct experience, or just the fastest performance possible for a particular set of games.

Thanks for your reply. Yes I am aware that there a faster options but for now I want a rather peroid correct DOS system and the pentium 166 mmx is the sweet spot for me at the moment.

@Kaputnik Has a point though. to be future proof a mmx 233 mhz jumpered to 166 mhz would be also possible.

And to be frank in case I migth ever get lucky and find a voodoo 2 card at a good price I would use it in my p3 800 mhz win 98se system and not in my DOS system.

For my DOS system the voodoo 1 is more appropriate.

@Joe That was a interesting read. Yes the term peroid correct might vary in different parts of the world.

I tested some games on a P166 non-mmx and a 233mmx system. Both with a Voodoo 1 and S3 virge, both with 32MB RAM. Without using a benchmark there’s absolutely no difference so just buy a pentium 166, 200 or 233 - whatever you can find for a reasonable price.
I think I might have a 166mmx in my storage.

Isn't the MMX needed for setmul?
Personally i think a 200mmx serves the purpose, i had no problems slowing it down to the point where even on a matrox card i solved the problem with scrolling in commander keen and jazz jack rabbit, or with secret of monkey island and the use of an MT-32 but at full speed i can also play system shock 1 at high resolution or quake at 320x240, it's all around the best option to go for an MMX.

iraito wrote on 2023-07-11, 09:25:

Isn't the MMX needed for setmul?

It's possible to use SetMul with the classic Pentium as well.

However, since it doesn't have as many test registers as the MMX, the slowdown options will be much more limited.

I never use setmul, I have slower machines as well when it comes to really old DOS games.
My pentium 166 pc can’t handle the MMX version. I do have some ss7 boards but why bother: the 233mmx covers my needs.
I just wanted to say that retep_110 shouldn‘t be too focused on a 166mmx.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-11, 10:27:

iraito wrote on 2023-07-11, 09:25:

Isn't the MMX needed for setmul?

It's possible to use SetMul with the classic Pentium as well.

However, since it doesn't have as many test registers as the MMX, the slowdown options will be much more limited.

IIRC, my Pentium 166 CPU did nothing with the TR12 parameters when using SetMul with the sole exception of the L1DX. Only the Pentium MMX CPUs that I have (166MMX and 233MMX) did with work all of them.

Kouwes wrote on 2023-07-11, 15:08:

I just wanted to say that retep_110 shouldn‘t be too focused on a 166mmx.

Indeed, I think that retep_110 should go for the Pentium 233MMX. Pair that CPU with a Gigabyte motherboard that has the Turbo switch for an additional slowdown option.

The 233 MMX was significantly more expensive than the slower versions, at least last time I looked

Personally I just use two machines. A P3 thats real fast with Voodoo 2 and a good geforce card, all for Win98. The other machine is a 486 DX33 which is my everything DOS. If something can't be configured slowed down properly on the 486, just use DOSBOX with the Win98 machine. I did do a single P4 machine that could really really do DOSBOX well to cover even more older stuff, but I ended up having too many problems with Win98 games where they would crash. Moving back down to a P3 solved a lot of those problems for me.

Don't get hung up on speed sensitive games that you cant seem to play on either machine. If its really your favorite game and going to be a deal breaker, then you should build your machine to fit it. The thing is, games like titus fox or even wing commander, everyone will remember it differently because whatever machine they had at the time is the way they played the game and most likely they way they like the game. Yeah I have a midi board on my sound card but I still swap a lot of games to OPL2/3 because thats the music I remember and love.

Thraka wrote on 2023-07-11, 19:58:

If its really your favorite game and going to be a deal breaker, then you should build your machine to fit it.

And that's how we wind up with 12 different machines. 😉

Kouwes wrote on 2023-07-11, 15:08:

I never use setmul, I have slower machines as well when it comes to really old DOS games.
My pentium 166 pc can’t handle the MMX version. I do have some ss7 boards but why bother: the 233mmx covers my needs.
I just wanted to say that retep_110 shouldn‘t be too focused on a 166mmx.

That's valid point. I look into other mmx variants as well.

HanSolo wrote on 2023-07-11, 18:48:

The 233 MMX was significantly more expensive than the slower versions, at least last time I looked

is right though. durin my superfical search the 233 mmx is more expensive. But if I can find it for a good price I would pull the trigger.

the MMX 166 and the 200mhz are way cheaper.

I will look deeper into that matter though. There might be some bargains for 233 mmx out there.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-07-11, 20:00:

Thraka wrote on 2023-07-11, 19:58:

If its really your favorite game and going to be a deal breaker, then you should build your machine to fit it.

And that's how we wind up with 12 different machines. 😉

The danger of being hooked into owing that many machines is real. I am already planning my second one the dos rig discused here after playing around with my p3 800 mhz every day. It is quite addictive using retro computers. 🤣

Building the perfect rig for favourite games sounds like fun indeed.

But for now I am more looking into a allround dos rig.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-11, 20:01:

I will look deeper into that matter though. There might be some bargains for 233 mmx out there.

I was really lucky when I got mine from an e-waste recycler. If you've got similar facilities (plus bulk trash pickup, flea market, NPO like Goodwill / Salvation Army, etc.) within your reach then keep an eye on those places.

I could have bought a "box" of 10-15 wasn't sure exact total 233MMX for $30 at the tail end of last year, but I didn't really need one, one for spare would have been okay, but I thought I maybe either couldn't be bothered selling them, or I'd forget and just stash them. That was just a "deals show up" kind of thing, it's a numbers game though, the more often you look, the more often you find.

However 233MMX, 486 dx2 66, and AMD DX5-133 are all chips that shouldn't actually be all that rare, as although at release they were top dog for a bit, they also became an entry level standard that persisted for 2 or 3 years when newer platforms had debuted. Their former higher end and populist status though makes demand that much greater which is inflating prices more than actual rarity.

I can't talk about number of machines, still trying to whittle it down to my favorite two dozen as a first pass. I am trying out some multi-speed setups though to try to make machines that go over a broad spread, then I might be able to let a lot more go. For instance, one unicorn I've been playing with this year, unfortunately not something a lot of people are going to be able to get their hands on, is a machine with a 100Mhz BL3, Blue Lightning, potentially it does 286: 8,16,25. 386: 16, 25, 33, 40. 486: 25, 33, 40, 66 speeds, by control of L1 and L2 caches, 1x, 2x, 3x multiplier and a clock chip that does 8mhz, 16, 20, 25, 33, 40... (Yah may actually do about dx2-80 when pushed) ... then I also have in mind experiments with a Cyrix MII and a Lucky Star 5V-1A which also has low clock settings and an MII can be set to 1x with setmul, then there's all the stuff Phil has shown with MMX and K6 3+ and then there's fun stuff with VIA chipsets and CPU from PII, PIII, P4 ranges, and desktop Athlon socket A, and a whole new can of worms with mobile Athlon XP.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-07-11, 20:00:

And that's how we wind up with 12 different machines. 😉

That’s exactly how it goes! Now I got my hands on a dual pentium board with 2 x 133.
I really don‘t need it but I going to replace the dallas RTC and build a WinNT system. Not sure which games will run on that‘s another story.
The only problem is, I don’t have a spare AT case.

@retep_110 there‘s a 166MMX for sale on willhaben.
Also a 233MMX but that one comes with some other stuff like three 486 CPU’s and some RAM sticks.
And no, I don’t know the sellers and it definitely not me! 😅

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-11, 20:04:

The danger of being hooked into owing that many machines is real. I am already planning my second one the dos rig discused here […]
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Shponglefan wrote on 2023-07-11, 20:00:

Thraka wrote on 2023-07-11, 19:58:

If its really your favorite game and going to be a deal breaker, then you should build your machine to fit it.

And that's how we wind up with 12 different machines. 😉

The danger of being hooked into owing that many machines is real. I am already planning my second one the dos rig discused here after playing around with my p3 800 mhz every day. It is quite addictive using retro computers. 🤣

Building the perfect rig for favourite games sounds like fun indeed.

But for now I am more looking into a allround dos rig.

If you know what you're doing, you wouldn't need that many computers just for DOS. 😉

P.S. Don't bother with suggestion of using DOSBox on such computers which defeats the purpose of this thread. That emulator runs better on modern computers.

dormcat wrote on 2023-07-11, 23:29:

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-11, 20:01:

I will look deeper into that matter though. There might be some bargains for 233 mmx out there.

I was really lucky when I got mine from an e-waste recycler. If you've got similar facilities (plus bulk trash pickup, flea market, NPO like Goodwill / Salvation Army, etc.) within your reach then keep an eye on those places.

That's good advice. I wil lcheck out if we similar facilites like this in my place. There is also the anual flea market of home town next month were sometimes computer parts are sold as well. I will visit that flea market for sure.

Kouwes wrote on 2023-07-12, 06:40:

@retep_110 there‘s a 166MMX for sale on willhaben. Also a 233MMX but that one comes with some other stuff like three 486 CPU’s a […]
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Shponglefan wrote on 2023-07-11, 20:00:

And that's how we wind up with 12 different machines. 😉

@retep_110 there‘s a 166MMX for sale on willhaben.
Also a 233MMX but that one comes with some other stuff like three 486 CPU’s and some RAM sticks.
And no, I don’t know the sellers and it definitely not me! 😅

Thanks fo the the info . I will check out the offer on willhaben asap.

In the meantime my The Gigabyte 586HX arrived and I am going to resume building the dos rig and I will finalise the parts I am going to use.

CPU wise I will either get a pentium 166 mmx or the Pentium 233mx like recommended.

At the moment I am more inclined towards the 166mhz mhx due to the easier avaiability and the better price. But it would also be tempting to max out my system.

a Pentium 200mhz could also be a alternative.

Which cpu would you pick if the main goal would be to have the a very high powered Dos System? And which one would you pick for the best comapability?

Campability wise I think the 166 mmx would be the best choice because you can also run some speed senstives on it if I am not mistaken?

I will also keep my eyes open for a Voodoo 1 card and a decent partner card for it.

I am not sure about the ram yet. How much ram is the sweet spot for a great DOS system?

Between the Pentium 200 and 166MMX, I would pick the latter because it has a larger L1 cache (16KB vs 32KB) and more chance that the SetMul utility will work with the TR12 registers.

Regarding amount of RAM, 16-32MB are the sweet spot for a DOS-only system.

Any S3 PCI video card starting from the Trio64 are the ideal choice in overall DOS compatibility, make sure that the card manufacturer isn't a noname one to ensure a decent image quality.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-09-18, 07:11:

In the meantime my The Gigabyte 586HX arrived and I am going to resume building the dos rig and I will finalise the parts I a […]
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In the meantime my The Gigabyte 586HX arrived and I am going to resume building the dos rig and I will finalise the parts I am going to use.

CPU wise I will either get a pentium 166 mmx or the Pentium 233mx like recommended.

At the moment I am more inclined towards the 166mhz mhx due to the easier avaiability and the better price. But it would also be tempting to max out my system.

a Pentium 200mhz could also be a alternative.

Which cpu would you pick if the main goal would be to have the a very high powered Dos System? And which one would you pick for the best comapability?

Campability wise I think the 166 mmx would be the best choice because you can also run some speed senstives on it if I am not mistaken?

I will also keep my eyes open for a Voodoo 1 card and a decent partner card for it.

I am not sure about the ram yet. How much ram is the sweet spot for a great DOS system?

I have Tulip P166MMX system with 64MB, Orpheus II sound card, Voodoo 1 and 98lite and I think similar systems are pretty damn good for most 90s DOS gaming up till late DOS era, as well as many win95 era games, of course. I personally didn’t actually build it specifically DOS in mind, I have other systems doing that job, but sort of as a system that plays games that are typical for Pentium era. And I’m one of those people who tend to take these systems for what they are and if they perform well for the period they are from, I am completely fine for it. I don’t need or want some fast Athlon system to play games from the mid 90s ”optimally”, I use such system to play games from late 98 or early XP era. However, IMO p166MMX has enough oomph for pretty much everything for the period, unless you want to play action games without 3D acceleration in SVGA resolutions. But to do that, PII or P3 is required in any case and even the fastest P1 just doesn’t cut it.

I think you will be just fine if you get P166. You can always upgrade faster CPU later if you find an affordable one etc.