StriderTR wrote on 2023-07-05, 06:47:

Sound Options (All ISA and around $30 – $40) […]
Show full quote

Sound Options (All ISA and around $30 – $40)

Creative Sound Blaster 16 CT4180 (Used)
Creative Labs AWE64 CT4520 (Used)
Opti 82C930 (New)

That OPTi card is very nice for pure DOS, but its Win9x drivers are pretty basic and have no support for DirectSound. This can lead to crackling and stuttering in some Windows games. The CT4520 is a good general purpose card, and it works fine in Windows too. On the flip side, it has CQM instead of a real OPL3 chip, meaning that music in older DOS games may sound "tinny" and overly harsh. Later DOS games (e.g. Duke3D) can use its on-board wavetable (AWE music) which generally sounds nicer, so that's another thing to consider.

I also looked at the S3 Trio64V2/DX 2MB card, and it begged the question, is there really going to be a huge performance difference between a 2MB and 4MB card, like the Virge DX comes in both?

S3 Trio and Virge cards have excellent DOS game compatibility, but be sure to get one that was made by a reputable manufacturer (ELSA, Hercules, STB, Diamond etc). Generic "no name" S3 cards often suffer from various image quality issues and are best avoided. More memory gives you access to higher resolutions with improved color depth, but this is largely irrelevant for DOS. The extra VRAM also comes into play with some S3D accelerated titles like Tomb Raider, which use the card's proprietary API. But if you don't want to experiment with that, 2 MB is mostly fine.

The TX97-XE has 430TX chipset, which only caches to 64MB. Adding more than 64MB ram will greatly reduce performance.
I too was in this boat, not that long ago.

How much this is supposed to be DOS system and how much Win9x system?

If Win9x is the main thing, then you'll want a 3D accelerator at some point so why not get one now. You might save some money when not buying some temporary S3 card. Both 3Dfx with 2D and nVidia cards are fast and compatible in DOS and Windows. Sure they can be expensive but for a Win9x system you'll going to want one anyway.

For a K6-2 system I recommend SS7 board instead so you can cache full 256MB and 100MHz bus makes it faster.

But if DOS is the main thing, then TX board is good. It makes no speed difference if S3 card has 2MB or 4MB and makes no difference in DOS. But more RAM allows better resolutions with full colors in Windows. But a good S3 Trio64v+ is better than cheap Virge DX so get a good quality card.

AWE64 value is the best of those sound cards both in DOS and Windows. It is a good general purpose card that should be avoided only if you really don't like CQM.

Edit:
Actually for a DOS+Win9x system it might be best to use that Opti for DOS. That should have real (or illegal copy) OPL3 and a working wavetable header so you can get X2GS later. Then get SB Live for Windows. Those should not be rare or expensive and are very good Windows cards.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-05, 08:26:

StriderTR wrote on 2023-07-05, 06:47:

Sound Options (All ISA and around $30 – $40) […]
Show full quote

Sound Options (All ISA and around $30 – $40)

Creative Sound Blaster 16 CT4180 (Used)
Creative Labs AWE64 CT4520 (Used)
Opti 82C930 (New)

That OPTi card is very nice for pure DOS, but its Win9x drivers are pretty basic and have no support for DirectSound. This can lead to crackling and stuttering in some Windows games. The CT4520 is a good general purpose card, and it works fine in Windows too. On the flip side, it has CQM instead of a real OPL3 chip, meaning that music in older DOS games may sound "tinny" and overly harsh. Later DOS games (e.g. Duke3D) can use its on-board wavetable (AWE music) which generally sounds nicer, so that's another thing to consider.

TX97 has more than one ISA slot. Install both.

Use the OPTi for OPL3 and SBPro2 under DOS (and for bug-free MIDI if required). Don't use under Windows.
Use the AWE64 for SB16 and AWE under DOS and Directsound under Windows.

oh2ftu wrote on 2023-07-05, 08:33:

The TX97-XE has 430TX chipset, which only caches to 64MB. Adding more than 64MB ram will greatly reduce performance.
I too was in this boat, not that long ago.

Yep. The hit is pretty significant under Win9x.

Note that there is very little that is native Win95 that would benefit from more RAM and DOS doesn't support more than 64MB (and hits memory detection errors over 16MB...) anyway. Unless you also want to do WinNT/2k, just stick to 64MB max.

Thanks for all the advice! I'm still open to more suggestions.

While laying in bed after posting this, I decided to just "keep it simple", and make a pure DOS 6.22 build out of this motherboard, with Windows 3.1 thrown in of course.

Many of the reasons mentioned here came to mind, and I already have a good Win95 build, so I don't need 2 of them. Unless I come across a cheap SS7 board that is. 😀

So, I will likely go with a 4MB S3 just to make it the best DOS system I can in my budget.

As for sound, it looks like the OPL3 is the winner for now, and maybe an AWE64 too, just for kicks. I like that idea, even though I wont need Directsound.

The only reason it's 256MB is becasue that's what I have lying around. 😜

Pure DOS (& Win3.11)? Get that 256MB DIMM out of there and replace it with 16 or 32MB. There is absolutely nothing that runs on DOS or Win 3.11 that can even use >64MB, that RAM will hurt performance a bit, but much worse, it will mess up memory detection in many DOS games, giving you "not enough memory" errors and refusing to run.

Thanks for the input, it’s very much appreciated!

So, this is what I’ve narrowed it down to…

For sound, I’m going to just pick up a “new old stock” Opti SA 16-bit 82C930 ISA card. It seems like it will work well for the range of DOS games I’m wanting to play. Like I said above, I may drop in an AWE64 card later as well. I used to have an AWE64 Gold that I loved, but sold it many years ago when I parted out my old retro system, a decision I now regret. Either way, this will work for now.

This card will run me about $40 shipped.

For video, my current primary choice is the S3 ViRGE DX 4MB 86C325. There are two I’m looking at based on price.

One of them is $27 shipped, listed as tested/working with screenshots of it working. The disadvantage to this one is a rusty VGA connector. However, I have several of them on hand and can just swap it out with a new one if I buy it, not a big deal to me. Its on-board chip is labeled as an N1A3BD.

There is another listed for just a few dollars more, $33 shipped, rust free. Not tested but the seller accepts returns. It’s labeled as an 86C325 as well, but the chip is N1C3BD. I assume it’s probably just a different revision?

That being said, I’m leaning toward the $33 card.

For a total of about $75, it looks like I can get a wide range of good DOS game compatibility. I find it crazy that just a few years ago people couldn’t give these parts away, now they are as much as, and often more expensive than modern hardware. I guess all those people throwing them out finally caught up to the retro community.

Unrelated to the audio and video, I’ve ordered a 32MB stick of PC100 to better fit with the change to DOS/Win3.1. The smallest stick I can find in my closet is 128MB. Like dionb said, it’s not needed and will only cause problems.

Lastly, I will look at either slowing down the K6-2 500 once I have the board in hand and setup, or just seeing if I can find a slower processor. Maybe a Pentium of K5.

Either way, unless any better suggestions come along, this is what I’m going with. 😊

Quick question... Both 4MB

S3 ViRGE 325 ?

or

S3 ViRGE/DX ?

Opinions?

You'll only notice the differences between those two in 3D accelerated games. The DX will be slightly faster there.

Also, with regards to the proprietary S3D API, the original Virge 325 is more compatible and works out of the box, while the DX sometimes needs additional patches to get it running with some older games like Terminal Velocity. Again, the DX will be faster in this mode as well. You can see some benchmarks here. For regular (non-S3D) games in DOS, both cards should behave the same way.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-10, 08:58:

You'll only notice the differences between those two in 3D accelerated games. The DX will be slightly faster there.

Also, with regards to the proprietary S3D API, the original Virge 325 is more compatible and works out of the box, while the DX sometimes needs additional patches to get it running with some older games like Terminal Velocity. Again, the DX will be faster in this mode as well. You can see some benchmarks here. For regular (non-S3D) games in DOS, both cards should behave the same way.

That was my assumption based on what I was reading. Nice to have a confirmation! Thank you! 😀

StriderTR wrote on 2023-07-10, 16:56:

[...]

That was my assumption based on what I was reading. Nice to have a confirmation! Thank you! 😀

Which cards are the chips on? The speed difference will be negligible for your purposes, but 4MB means nice high resolutions and colour depths - but that also means you will really see bad analog parts. If the Virge has better build quality than the Virge/DX, it wins hands down.

dionb wrote on 2023-07-10, 19:44:

Which cards are the chips on? The speed difference will be negligible for your purposes, but 4MB means nice high resolutions and colour depths - but that also means you will really see bad analog parts. If the Virge has better build quality than the Virge/DX, it wins hands down.

This is the specific card I picked up.

I've always had good luck with AOpen branded items and I was able to get a good deal on it, just $20. Tested, working, and in very good condition. 😀

Never had AOpen VGA cards from that era. Apart from a very unfortunate run-in with a dud AX6BC Pro motherboard in 1999 at a time when I could least afford it, have also had generally good experiences with AOpen.

AOpen makes one of my favorite "old" motherboards as well, the AK-72.

I had one (seen below - the photo I took for the eBay listing I sold it on) powering my old Windows 95 "retro gaming" build that I sadly parted out several years ago. I regret doing that now, especially getting rid of my AWE64 Gold. 🙁

Secondary sound card options.

Opinions wanted. 😀

In addition to the Opti 82C930 I already have ordered, out of the cards in the photo below, what one (if any) would you recommend as a 2nd card for this system?

• Vibra 16

• Vibra 16C

• Packard Bell Crystal Cs4231a-kl

• Avance Logic ALS120

• Analog Devices AD1816 FX-3D

• Creative SB16 Value CT2770

• Creative SB16 MCD CT1750

The CT4520 AWE64 Value that you mentioned before would be a good companion for the OPTi card. It provides AWE music and SB16 compatibility, which nicely complement the SBPro/WSS capabilities of the OPTi. I used both of those cards in one of my retro rigs for quite a while, and they worked together very nicely. You just need to ensure that each card is configured to use a different set of resources.

As for the various SB16 and Vibra cards that you mentioned above, they only bring SB16 compatibility to the table, compared to the OPTi, so either one will work fine. This may help you decide: Sound Blaster: From best to worst

StriderTR wrote on 2023-07-05, 06:47:

CPU: AMD K6-2 500

I would also recommend enabling write combining to improve performance in higher resolutions, K6INIT is handy for this.

Also, if you can, replace the CPU with a K6-2+ one which has the ability to adjust the CPU multiplier on the fly. Jan has a modded BIOS for that ASUS motherboard.

StriderTR wrote on 2023-07-11, 23:03:

Secondary sound card options. […]
Show full quote

Secondary sound card options.

Opinions wanted. 😀

In addition to the Opti 82C930 I already have ordered, out of the cards in the photo below, what one (if any) would you recommend as a 2nd card for this system?

• Vibra 16

• Vibra 16C

• Packard Bell Crystal Cs4231a-kl

• Avance Logic ALS120

• Analog Devices AD1816 FX-3D

• Creative SB16 Value CT2770

• Creative SB16 MCD CT1750

For Creative and Aztech cards it's always good to list the model number / FCC ID, as "Vibra 16" could be many things. Looking at the pic we're talking about:

Creative CT1750 (SB16 CT1739 / CT1701)
Creative CT2770 (SB16 CT1741 / CT1703 (different versions possible))
Creative CT4180 (Vibra CT2505)
Asus I-A16C (with Vibra CT2505)

For that lot, see here: Sound Blaster: From best to worst

They all add SB16 sound support, and various bugs/issues - the CT1750 is noisy and has single cycle DMA clicks, the CT2770 adds MIDI hanging notes to the mix although it may have a quieter DSP. The Vibras replace DMA clicks with Vibra hissing and clipping and even worse hanging notes, but at least they have a noise-free DSP. The MIDI issues can be ignored if you use the OPTi 930 card for that. Out of this lot, the CT2770 s probably the least bad way of adding SB16 support, at least if it has a CT1703-TBS or CT1703-A DSP.

As for the other cards:
Aztech MMSN834 is a 3rd gen (AZT2316A-based) Aztech card. I like Aztech 3rd gen cards as they are solid non-PnP solutions with SBPro2, real (or 1:1 clone) OPL3 FM, bug-free MIDI and DOS WSS support and actually have a version of this very card in my late DOS machine next to AWE64 Gold and GUS Classic - but it's functionally identical to the OPTi930 so doesn't add anything on top of it (er, unless you want to use the modem function..)
AOpen FX-3D is an AD1816-based card, and that chip is basically awful. It's theoretical specs are the same as the OPTi930, but DOS support is lacking, FM is a terrible emulation and you may get sample speed issues too.
Labway A381F20 is a low-end card based on Advance Logic's ALS120 chipset. It is a cut-cost successor to the actually quite good ALS100. That was one of the few non-Creative SB16 compatible chips, but also offering bug-free MIDI and (external) real OPL3 or 1:1 clone. Cards with that chipset were some of the best single-card, all standards options. Unfortunately ALS120 integrated the FM synth and although it's not bad, it's not OPL3 either, but worse, high DMA support was dropped - so you can still configure it for SB16, but both DMA channels need to be configured 3 or lower. That breaks compatibility with some games and can be hard to configure at all in a multi-soundcard setup.

Interestingly, all the brands here are from brands with decent quality, at least equal to the Creative cards, but one doesn't offer anything new, one has an abysmal chip and the last is a flawed low-end product. I'd keep the MMSN834 for a future build though, that's one good card.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-12, 02:52:

The CT4520 AWE64 Value that you mentioned before would be a good companion for the OPTi card. It provides AWE music and SB16 compatibility, which nicely complement the SBPro/WSS capabilities of the OPTi. I used both of those cards in one of my retro rigs for quite a while, and they worked together very nicely. You just need to ensure that each card is configured to use a different set of resources.

As for the various SB16 and Vibra cards that you mentioned above, they only bring SB16 compatibility to the table, compared to the OPTi, so either one will work fine. This may help you decide: Sound Blaster: From best to worst

I may have to just use the CT4520...

I'm having issues with the OPTi card seller. Paid for it last week, still hasn't shipped, so I gave them until this evening to give me an update before I open a case with eBay for a refund.

Do you, or anyone, have an honest opinion on the OPTi vs the CtT4520? I'm no audiophile, I just want good DOS compatibility and sound. 😀

Thanks for all the advice!