It is hard for me to justify spending £200 on it almost, I have to admit. I'm trying to justify it but it's really high.
I just wondered if it was a good starting point by already being out there, semi-ubiquitous etc.
I see someone has designed an 8bit GUS replica, that's fascinating, I wonder what else could be plugged into that "pod" socket.
Is that exposed ISA interface anything like a PC104 header, could other things be done???

betamax80 wrote on 2023-07-29, 22:07:

It is hard for me to justify spending £200 on it almost, I have to admit. I'm trying to justify it but it's really high.

I see, that makes sense. That's a general problem with small series productions.

The creator of the Book8088 seems to be an one-man company, so he/she/they has to buy the parts to normal end-user prices.

If the creator had a real company, he could buy parts for a lower price at the wholesale and would get discount, too.
Thant being said, I have no idea how things work in that country (Korea?).

In the end, though, the creator makes little profits, if at all. It's about enough to keep the business running.
The motivation is more to find a purpose in life or to contribute something to the community, I suppose.

Personally, I think that the Book8088 has a chance of getting a cult status, eventually.
Much more than the Ouya, at least. 😉

betamax80 wrote on 2023-07-29, 22:07:

I just wondered if it was a good starting point by already being out there, semi-ubiquitous etc.

Sure, why not. 🙂

betamax80 wrote on 2023-07-29, 22:07:

I see someone has designed an 8bit GUS replica, that's fascinating, I wonder what else could be plugged into that "pod" socket.
Is that exposed ISA interface anything like a PC104 header, could other things be done???

Technically, the expansion header on the Book8088 is just the classic XT-Bus on a different connector, I think.
That's why Clint was able to plug-in a normal 8-Bit Sound Blaster.
So anything that works on a real XT should work here, too.

The modern XT BIOS is even better and more compatible than what's inside a real, stock Model 5150/Model 5160.
And if you install an NEC processor, many 286 era programs and drivers should work, too.

By using a Hercules card on the little expansion card you could use an external TTL monitor, too.
If it's a real CGA CRTC that's inside the Book8088, then a dual-monitor setup should be perfectly possible (use MODE MONO and MODE CO80 to switch monitors on DOS 6.x).

By using a Graphics Gremlin, a modern monitor can be used, too, maybe. 🙂

That being said, an 4,77 MHz system is not for the faint-hearted.
It needs quite a capacity for suffering, even with the NEC upgrade. CGA doesn't make things any better.

I'm not kidding, I'm an owner of a PC compatible @4,77 MHz and it teached me what pain is.
I had no idea how good I had it growing up with a 12 MHz 80286, until I got it.

Edit: What I mean to say, it's maybe good to check out an accurate IBM PC emulator first.
Or something universal, like PCem/86Box. To make sure the favorite games run acceptable on the real hardware.
Because, the difference to a slow 286/386SX is quite notable (8-Bit XT system is even slower).

I've played with PCem, would love to maybe try an actual Book 8088 config on that. I like a challenge... I've seen how a DIR listing can pause for ages etc.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-07-31, 21:29:

I'm not kidding, I'm an owner of a PC compatible @4,77 MHz and it teached me what pain is.
I had no idea how good I had it growing up with a 12 MHz 80286, until I got it.

Yah I was absolutely spoiled, RUINED by having my hands on Amstrad PC1512 and PC1640 before a genuine IBM PC XT in the day. Thing is, before that, I'd only used floppy machines that were Z80 and CP/M based and they didn't seem a whole lot slower than the Amstrads, thing is though they were loading dinky little sub 64kb programs and there were directory restrictions on CP/M which kept listing thrash to a minimum. 8 bit to 16 bit was also a bit like 32 to 64bit everything takes a bit more room and takes a bit longer to load anyway, and IBM PCs were doing it all on basically the same chipsets and memory parts as CP/M machines. Amstrad jumped in with 5 years newer tech on their clones, I came late to the party, started to DOS on 2 or 3 year old tech, then stepped back 7 years and was like "Whoa, dinosaur". So kinda like the transition from using Android 10..12 phone now to a Android 2.3 phone or tablet in speed. Even my Sharp PC-4640 is a bit of a speed freak with 8Mhz of throbbing V20. But yah if you've ever tried some of the machines on PCJS and thought it was your browsing box that was too slow, nope, they run full speed on anything better than about an Atom N270 I think, yeah, they're really that speed.

HP 200LX was also a neat Palm Top

Honestly I'm waiting on some expenses to be paid back. I'm very likely to be getting a Book 8088 I think, because its niche, conveniently small and I think that it is in the midst of starting new discussion on the PC-XT class.
My first computer (Not including a VTech Pre-Computer 1000) was an Amstrad PC7486slc33 (which they made to bulk out their 386 line up with a soldered overdrive chip by ICL!)

If you've still got your Vtech btw, there's been ppl hacking CP/M onto them.

I have a few angles to look at the Book 8088 from....

First is it does indeed fill a niche that does not exist in any capacity historically. While all of those passive matrix laptops and handhelds from the 80's are really nice systems for their time, they still don't display in color, only have internal speaker sound, and probably cost as much as the Book 8088 does. The goal of it from this angle is that it's supposed to be like a 1980's laptop computer with a color screen, internal storage (SSD), Adlib sound, and a smaller footprint - as even an original NEC UltraLite has a bigger footprint. It also has a battery that works by modern laptop standards.

Secondly, I think it's meant more as a "Turnkey" solution compared to a vintage laptop. If oyu buy a Book 8088, all you have to do is slap the CF Card in a CF Card reader, transfer over your software, plug the card in, and you're done. Whereas say, I bought a Tandy 1100 laptop like the one above, I might have to recap the motherboard, replace the Hard Disk with a hard to find ancient 40 pin Xt-IDE drive if it even has one to begin with, clean floppy drive heads, clean keyboard and keys, deal with broken plastic, not have a working battery so I'd have to rig something up or find the aprpriate type of battery (good luck) and wire it into the original casing. Not everyone who wants to play DOS games wants to become a Legacy IT Support tech, and not everyone who wants to be a Legacy IT Support tech is an avid DOS gamer either.

And lastly, I could see this as being the future of vintage x86 IBM compatible systems. We already have open-source reproductions of the NES, Atari 2600, Apple II, and others out there to tinker with, so why not a modern PC approximation or several. All of these open source and new retro-projects started out as someone's rough bash-together of cast-off or AliExpress components, so this is not the endgame. What if, in a few years, we get a portable OpenSource Tandy 1000 compatible system with a better LCD and a pointing device, and 4 CPU clockspeeds instead of two.

What if in a few ytears we get a Book 486 that has a trackpad, modern LCD capable of emulating a CRT, and SoundBlaster AWE32 compatible audio, designed to look like an original 1990's product, and the battery life of an original Grey Brick Game Boy!

I was more interested in the Hand 386 to be honest, but they were sold out practically as soon as the first article dropped in May.

creepingnet wrote on 2023-08-01, 22:29:

I have a few angles to look at the Book 8088 from.... […]
Show full quote

I have a few angles to look at the Book 8088 from....

First is it does indeed fill a niche that does not exist in any capacity historically. While all of those passive matrix laptops and handhelds from the 80's are really nice systems for their time, they still don't display in color, only have internal speaker sound, and probably cost as much as the Book 8088 does. The goal of it from this angle is that it's supposed to be like a 1980's laptop computer with a color screen, internal storage (SSD), Adlib sound, and a smaller footprint - as even an original NEC UltraLite has a bigger footprint. It also has a battery that works by modern laptop standards.

Secondly, I think it's meant more as a "Turnkey" solution compared to a vintage laptop. If oyu buy a Book 8088, all you have to do is slap the CF Card in a CF Card reader, transfer over your software, plug the card in, and you're done. Whereas say, I bought a Tandy 1100 laptop like the one above, I might have to recap the motherboard, replace the Hard Disk with a hard to find ancient 40 pin Xt-IDE drive if it even has one to begin with, clean floppy drive heads, clean keyboard and keys, deal with broken plastic, not have a working battery so I'd have to rig something up or find the aprpriate type of battery (good luck) and wire it into the original casing. Not everyone who wants to play DOS games wants to become a Legacy IT Support tech, and not everyone who wants to be a Legacy IT Support tech is an avid DOS gamer either.

And lastly, I could see this as being the future of vintage x86 IBM compatible systems. We already have open-source reproductions of the NES, Atari 2600, Apple II, and others out there to tinker with, so why not a modern PC approximation or several. All of these open source and new retro-projects started out as someone's rough bash-together of cast-off or AliExpress components, so this is not the endgame. What if, in a few years, we get a portable OpenSource Tandy 1000 compatible system with a better LCD and a pointing device, and 4 CPU clockspeeds instead of two.

What if in a few ytears we get a Book 486 that has a trackpad, modern LCD capable of emulating a CRT, and SoundBlaster AWE32 compatible audio, designed to look like an original 1990's product, and the battery life of an original Grey Brick Game Boy!

I agree very much. There is so much to be said for the integrated XTIDE and CH375 support, integrated sound etc. Wit the limitations of CF in mind I'd love to see a range of vintage systems possibly up to early Pentium systems (something that could support the AWE32/64 and GUS, maybe early Voodoo graphics - something like a Pentium 166 MMX? But this is an excellent "earliest in the lineup" model. From what I gather the original 5150 was such hard work to configure and live with that this is the correct starting system. The Hand386 is less interesting to me as its less modular, and really it would be an excellent WFW3.11 machine if it had an ethernet port (a Vonets adapter could be used to wifi bridging).

just buy a vintage laptop today, Pentium 1 class working machines (minus battery/cosmetics) are still plentiful and cheap.

There is £16.24 off them right now in AliExpress (if you buy with the sound card or plus the ISA card). It helps, a little bit.
I'm considering pressing go on it later.

https://youtu.be/RVcWGaBcw5I

Another video... brings new questions?

betamax80 wrote on 2023-08-13, 01:57:

https://youtu.be/RVcWGaBcw5I

Another video... brings new questions?

It seems like he hardly has idea what he is talking about. In pros and cons part of the video he compares it with IBM PC 5150. What part of "IBM PC XT compatible machine" did he miss? It would be great if Book 8088 was not only PC XT but also PC compatible and would also have a cassette port with Cassette BASIC in ROM, but is doesn't. Also, if comparing it to 51XX models, in my opinion not 5150 or 5160, but 5140 (IBM PC Convertible) is the closest model - same weird LCD resolution, same weird ISA expansion socket.

betamax80 wrote on 2023-07-29, 00:14:

Indeed. PCjr and Tandy 1000 compatibility would have mad so much sense on a retro device like this! 4-color CGA was always so limiting, even back in the day. Especially since the Book 8088 apparently doesn't support composite output that would allow 16-color CGA with some games.

I do second that, but I don't know if the chips are obtainable etc - I feel like there is a reason the creator went with CGA and OPL2. I completely see how something that "fakes tandy mode" would be awesome.

Obtainability of the required chips would probably not be an issue, at least in this regard. The Book 8088 design uses a Motorola 6845 chip, which all PC graphics adapters before EGA made were based on, including CGA, PCjr and Tandy 1000.

Sergey, the author of the BIOS that the manufacturer shipped with the Book 8088 without properly attributing him, posted some interesting info on VCFED, based on what he found out from the schematic. Specifically, about how CGA is implemented on this machine:

• The CGA controller functionality is implemented as two CPLDs and the original 6845 CRT controller
• CGA uses a 32 KB SRAM for the video RAM
• According to the pinout, the CPLDs seem to be Altera MAX7000S series or Atmel ATF1500AS series in PLCC84 package

As is discussed further in that same thread, it might be possible to reprogram the CPLDs to add compatibility for Plantronics 320x200 16-color mode, since the machine has 32 KB SRAM available for the video RAM. In its current implementation however, only regular CGA is supported, and half of the 32 KB video RAM appears to be going unused. (Not sure if these specific CPLD types can be reprogrammed once the product has left the factory, but it could be included in the design of a future revision of the product.)

Since the Tandy 1000 graphics adapter is also based on the 6845 CRT controller, it might even be possible to add compatibility for Tandy 1000 and PCjr graphics modes, without having to add any more chips to the design. Although I suspect that the RAM would probably have to be rewired for that as well, since Tandy 1000 graphics uses shared memory.

The sound part of Tandy 1000 compatibility would be comparatively easy to implement. Just integrate a Texas Instruments SN76489 sound chip in the design. (Preferably in addition to the optional OPL3 chip, not as a replacement of it.) There are multiple Tandy sound ISA projects in existence that already show how relatively simple the required circuitry for that be.

And finally, a modification would likely have to be made to the BIOS, so games will identify the system as a Tandy 1000 and automatically make use of those abilities.

I see it as a short time frame fad that most true vintage oriented might consider but doubt it will have the same impact as a finding/obtaining a true XT based computer. I won't get one.
That being said I can see 10 years from now a "re-look" at it by some magazines/online sites after it has been discontinued...just my opinion

I have both the Book 8088 and the Hand 386.

I don't think these will be future classics. I like them, they are cool toys, but they both have issues that really prevent me from calling them awesome.

Especially the Hand 386. Turns out when it's plugged into the wall and powered on, it still only runs from the battery. The battery only charges when the computer is switched off. What the hell is that??

I wonder if there's some way I can fix that.

UselessSoftware wrote on 2023-08-14, 01:18:

I have both the Book 8088 and the Hand 386. […]
Show full quote

I have both the Book 8088 and the Hand 386.

I don't think these will be future classics. I like them, they are cool toys, but they both have issues that really prevent me from calling them awesome.

Especially the Hand 386. Turns out when it's plugged into the wall and powered on, it still only runs from the battery. The battery only charges when the computer is switched off. What the hell is that??

I wonder if there's some way I can fix that.

@UselessSoftware commenting on useless hardware 😁

UselessSoftware wrote on 2023-08-14, 01:18:

Especially the Hand 386. Turns out when it's plugged into the wall and powered on, it still only runs from the battery. The battery only charges when the computer is switched off. What the hell is that??

I wonder if there's some way I can fix that.

I don't think that's that unusual. I don't own either, but I do have a Vintage NanTan FMAK9200D laptop computer that only charges the batteries when the power is off (it's a 486). I think it's because some cheaper devices back in the day, and possibly the designer who consolidated all these Sergey projects together might not have had the Engineering skills to figure out how to charge while plugged in, or wanted to save cost. Totally fine with me.