Looks like i finally done disk detection change right

https://github.com/jinshin/8088_bios/tree/settings

KarlG wrote on 2023-12-14, 02:22:

Very impressive! I'm wondering if it's faster than the CGA Wolfenstein 3D port on the same hardware? Sounds like it would come out to the same number of bytes for the display with your method, but simpler than having 4 pixels per byte on CGA.

Thanks! It should be faster than CGA, as with VGA it is possible to render directly to video memory. With CGA it needs to render to a buffer and then blit to video memory. I'll have to measure things to be sure though.

jmarsh wrote on 2023-12-14, 12:54:

What's wrong with that? The outport sets the palette index to 0, then it auto-increments after reading every 3 bytes (R/G/B).

Yes, I don't see any issues with the code itself and this is unmodified from the original Wolf3D source. It just appears that the values returned from the IN instructions are incorrect, i.e. the RGB values returned are different from what the palette was actually set to. This is why I thought it could be a bug in the Book 8088's VGA implementation. It would be interesting to see if any other games have this visible issue.

jhhoward wrote on 2023-12-14, 17:37:

Yes, I don't see any issues with the code itself and this is unmodified from the original Wolf3D source. It just appears that the values returned from the IN instructions are incorrect, i.e. the RGB values returned are different from what the palette was actually set to. This is why I thought it could be a bug in the Book 8088's VGA implementation. It would be interesting to see if any other games have this visible issue.

VGA only uses 6 bits for each channel, is that what you're seeing? Or it's an unexpected 8-bit DAC?

I am interested in running Commute or PCAnywhere from a PC Emulator in a Windows 10 machine to Book 8088 using a USB to Serial Cable.

Based on your expertise with this or something similar work?

https://www.amazon.ca/StarTech-com-USB-Serial … T1zcF9hdGY&th=1

Jo22 wrote on 2023-10-20, 20:33:

+1 […]
Show full quote

+1

Another thing to keep in mind is the voltage difference. It's not critical for simple data transfer, but good to know.

A real V.24 port on PC has +/- 12v levels, while USB/Serial converters do use TTL levels of +5v and 0v.
Or more recently, +3.3v and 0v.
On/Off levels vs positive/negative levels, sot to say.

Again, it's not critical, because USB/Serial converters with a DE9 plug are 12v tolerant.
- The USB/Serial PCBs for embedded use (Arduino, Raspberry Pi etc) are not, though.

What's problematic, though, is that the RS-232's threshold is at 3v, however. A +3.3v signal is borderline.
The official range is -15v to -3v and +3v to +15v.

So if the cable is too long or badly shielded, the RS-232 may have difficulties to recognize the
+3.3v signal as a positive level.

A MAX232 can help converting the levels properly, but it can handle 2 signals simultaneously, at best. Which are RXD and TXD, usually.
So a simple 3-wire null-modem connection is the best that's possible here.

Book 8088 V2 just arrived a few questions:

-Any suggestions installing IMG files from WinWorldPC?
-Best way to run EGA or VGA for Windows 3.0? Seems to run CGA 2 colour of the box. I came across this on another thread
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/win … -8088-xt.35866/
-I am interested in running Windows 2.x. Does it support EGA or VGA out of the box? Will it run on Book 8088?
Thanks again!

jmarsh wrote on 2023-12-14, 18:30:

jhhoward wrote on 2023-12-14, 17:37:

Yes, I don't see any issues with the code itself and this is unmodified from the original Wolf3D source. It just appears that the values returned from the IN instructions are incorrect, i.e. the RGB values returned are different from what the palette was actually set to. This is why I thought it could be a bug in the Book 8088's VGA implementation. It would be interesting to see if any other games have this visible issue.

VGA only uses 6 bits for each channel, is that what you're seeing? Or it's an unexpected 8-bit DAC?

SVHS wrote on 2023-12-18, 04:58:

Book 8088 V2 just arrived a few questions: […]
Show full quote

Book 8088 V2 just arrived a few questions:

-Any suggestions installing IMG files from WinWorldPC?
-Best way to run EGA or VGA for Windows 3.0? Seems to run CGA 2 colour of the box. I came across this on another thread
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/win … -8088-xt.35866/
-I am interested in running Windows 2.x. Does it support EGA or VGA out of the box? Will it run on Book 8088?
Thanks again!

For installations that require booting, like Windows or DOS itself, I ended up using an external ISA Super I/O card and a Gotek. I don't know how else it could be done since at least with stock and proper Sergey BIOS the USB is not bootable.
Otherwise you can extract the files using for example WinImage and use a usb drive (remember max 2GB and FAT16).

VGA didn't work for me so I switched to EGA which works and looks pretty good. Essentially it seems the issue with V2 is that they borked something in the LCD controller firmware and video modes with more than 350 vertical pixels simply don't work.

I'm not familiar with Windows 2.x video modes, but everything up to Windows 3.0a will run

SVHS wrote on 2023-12-18, 04:58:

I am interested in running Windows 2.x. Does it support EGA or VGA out of the box? Will it run on Book 8088?

Hi, yes, Windows 2.03 (that's the popular retail version) does support both EGA (640x350 16c) and VGA (640x480 16c) without extra drivers.
Though it uses 8 colours most of the time, for whatever reasons, as far as I know.

Other Windows 2 versions, like 2.11, may use a lower resolution version of VGA, for better compatibility with applications written for EGA PCs.
They may still use 640x480 pels as a mode (mode 12h), but the screen is reduced to 640x450 pels.

Windows 2.x is also interesting in sofar that it tries to implement a virtual tru-color system by using dithering.
A 256c display is seen as a high-end graphics system already.
On a period-correct CRT computer monitor from the 1980s (say 14" IBM PS/2 monitor), that dithering blends to something that looks like "true color" (colour depth).

PS: Another thing worth trying might be Windows 3.0 with the MCGA driver (mode 13h).
That driver uses 320x200 in 256c. Everything will look like pixel-art, of course, but it may work.
The driver belongs to Windows 3.0 MME, however. I don't know if it's still Real-Mode compatible or if it needs a V20 processor.

My fork of Sergey's BIOS can emulate floppy on USB stick for quite a while
https://github.com/jinshin/8088_bios/releases/tag/v1.0.2
If you're in UK, betamax80 (OP) might help you with BIOS change.

Otherwise you can extract the files using for example WinImage and use a usb drive (remember max 2GB and FAT16).

I was looking at this yesterday. The issue is how I mount the IMG files once converted to DOS format on the USB. It appears that I have multiple folders
of 360K files. I am uncertain how to load multiple disk files e.g. Windows 2.x. Perhaps a SUBST command for each folder?

Alternatively might there be a way via Serial or Ethernet? Trying to avoid the Gotek route if possible.

Yrouel wrote on 2023-12-18, 10:28:

For installations that require booting, like Windows or DOS itself, I ended up using an external ISA Super I/O card and a Gotek. […]
Show full quote

SVHS wrote on 2023-12-18, 04:58:

Book 8088 V2 just arrived a few questions: […]
Show full quote

Book 8088 V2 just arrived a few questions:

-Any suggestions installing IMG files from WinWorldPC?
-Best way to run EGA or VGA for Windows 3.0? Seems to run CGA 2 colour of the box. I came across this on another thread
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/win … -8088-xt.35866/
-I am interested in running Windows 2.x. Does it support EGA or VGA out of the box? Will it run on Book 8088?
Thanks again!

For installations that require booting, like Windows or DOS itself, I ended up using an external ISA Super I/O card and a Gotek. I don't know how else it could be done since at least with stock and proper Sergey BIOS the USB is not bootable.
Otherwise you can extract the files using for example WinImage and use a usb drive (remember max 2GB and FAT16).

VGA didn't work for me so I switched to EGA which works and looks pretty good. Essentially it seems the issue with V2 is that they borked something in the LCD controller firmware and video modes with more than 350 vertical pixels simply don't work.

I'm not familiar with Windows 2.x video modes, but everything up to Windows 3.0a will run

This is all quite interesting. Did Windows 3.0 also implement a virtual try color system through dithering? I do not recall this on Win 3.x systems.

I will try different Windows 2.x installations and see what happens. A few apps on WinWorld e.g. Pagemaker have runtime versions of Win 2.x

Jo22 wrote on 2023-12-18, 11:24:

Hi, yes, Windows 2.03 (that's the popular retail version) does support both EGA (640x350 16c) and VGA (640x480 16c) without extr […]
Show full quote

SVHS wrote on 2023-12-18, 04:58:

I am interested in running Windows 2.x. Does it support EGA or VGA out of the box? Will it run on Book 8088?

Hi, yes, Windows 2.03 (that's the popular retail version) does support both EGA (640x350 16c) and VGA (640x480 16c) without extra drivers.
Though it uses 8 colours most of the time, for whatever reasons, as far as I know.

Other Windows 2 versions, like 2.11, may use a lower resolution version of VGA, for better compatibility with applications written for EGA PCs.
They may still use 640x480 pels as a mode (mode 12h), but the screen is reduced to 640x450 pels.

Windows 2.x is also interesting in sofar that it tries to implement a virtual tru-color system by using dithering.
A 256c display is seen as a high-end graphics system already.
On a period-correct CRT computer monitor from the 1980s (say 14" IBM PS/2 monitor), that dithering blends to something that looks like "true color" (colour depth).

PS: Another thing worth trying might be Windows 3.0 with the MCGA driver (mode 13h).
That driver uses 320x200 in 256c. Everything will look like pixel-art, of course, but it may work.
The driver belongs to Windows 3.0 MME, however. I don't know if it's still Real-Mode compatible or if it needs a V20 processor.

Unfortunately I am not. I am assuming this requires replacing the BIOS with a new ROM?

quote=n0p post_id=1219372 time=1702911793 user_id=2338]
My fork of Sergey's BIOS can emulate floppy on USB stick for quite a while
https://github.com/jinshin/8088_bios/releases/tag/v1.0.2
If you're in UK, betamax80 (OP) might help you with BIOS change.
[/quote]

SVHS wrote on 2023-12-18, 18:18:

Unfortunately I am not. I am assuming this requires replacing the BIOS with a new ROM? […]
Show full quote

Unfortunately I am not. I am assuming this requires replacing the BIOS with a new ROM?

quote=n0p post_id=1219372 time=1702911793 user_id=2338]
My fork of Sergey's BIOS can emulate floppy on USB stick for quite a while
https://github.com/jinshin/8088_bios/releases/tag/v1.0.2
If you're in UK, betamax80 (OP) might help you with BIOS change.

Yes, reflashing BIOS is required, but only if you need to boot from USB drive.
If you don't need to boot, but need drive A to work from USB there's two ways:
First:
Write image of floppy to USB drive with Rufus (or DD in Linux).
Make sure you have USB device driver loaded on Book8088 (it appears as drive D). It will recognise floppy image w/o problems.
Do a subst A: D:\ and hope install program will take it.
To insert next image - simply write next image to USB with Rufus and replug the stick
Second:
If that won't work for some reason - i can provide a TSR (it's basically for my own testing of USB chip functions for BIOS) that will hook int 13h handler and emulate floppy A from USB drive.
Same way, image must be written to USB stick with Rufus.

SVHS wrote on 2023-12-18, 18:17:

This is all quite interesting. Did Windows 3.0 also implement a virtual try color system through dithering? I do not recall this on Win 3.x systems.

Clearly yesn't. 😀

Windows 3.0 has two different palette/colour systems, as far as I know.

If a Windows 3.0 is running via Real-Mode kernal it can mimic the Windows 2 colour handling, but only if Windows 2.x graphics drivers are being used.
That way, older Windows 1/2 applications will continue as expected (more or less, there are visual glitches sometimes).
- I've often used Easel for testing here, btw.

Normally, with Windows 3 graphics drivers, Windows 3.x will try to reserve at least 16 colours for the system.
These become so called "static" colours (reserved for Windows GUI).
If Windows programs try to change them or if they need more colours, the Windows desktop will often have these psychodelic colours..
If a 256c graphics driver is loaded, Windows will reserve the full 20 "static" colours, with the rest being free to be altered by applications.

That's why 256c bitmaps to be used under Windows 3.x better shouldn't make use of 256 colours, but 236 or less.
That way, the static colours aren't being touched. Ideally, a graphics program already embeds these static colours inside the picture file.
WinGIF and other programs always try to include the 16c Windows colours.
(Even though WinGIF isn't exactly good at dithering by today's standard; on a CRT it worked though).

Starting with Windows 3.0 (w/ Windows 3 drivers), the virtual colour mixing was being abandoned, I believe.
It makes sense, because Super VGA hardware had meanwhile catched up and could do high colour depths.

Edit: The explanation of this is because GDI is being implemented in large parts in the graphics driver itself.
So if a Windows 2 graphics driver is being loaded, a a notable part of the Windows 2 graphics sub system is being run, too.

Windows 95 changed this with so-called "minidrivers".
The big part of GDI was now part of Windows, with the actual driver being the low-level part (hardware dependent part).
- Unless older Windows 3.1x graphics drivers were being used on Windows 95, I think.

SVHS wrote on 2023-12-18, 18:17:

I will try different Windows 2.x installations and see what happens.

Sounds good! I also recommend trying out Easel and PC-Paintbrush. The latter was the basis for MS Paintbrush in Windows 3.x.

Good luck! 🙂

SVHS wrote on 2023-12-18, 18:14:

Otherwise you can extract the files using for example WinImage and use a usb drive (remember max 2GB and FAT16). […]
Show full quote

Otherwise you can extract the files using for example WinImage and use a usb drive (remember max 2GB and FAT16).

I was looking at this yesterday. The issue is how I mount the IMG files once converted to DOS format on the USB. It appears that I have multiple folders
of 360K files. I am uncertain how to load multiple disk files e.g. Windows 2.x. Perhaps a SUBST command for each folder?

Alternatively might there be a way via Serial or Ethernet? Trying to avoid the Gotek route if possible.

Oh I meant using WinImage to extract the files from all the image files in a single folder on the usb drive, the setup should find them automatically or ask you where they are in which case you just keep pointing it to that folder.

Again for stuff that requires boot I don't know other ways unfortunately. For stuff that doesn't now that you mentioned ethernet I just remembered the new thing going around: mTCP NetDrive http://www.brutman.com/mTCP/mTCP_NetDrive.html

I don't know about serial, I think it would be too cumbersome if you have eth anyway

How did you enable EGA in Windows 3.0?

Yrouel wrote on 2023-12-18, 10:28:

For installations that require booting, like Windows or DOS itself, I ended up using an external ISA Super I/O card and a Gotek. […]
Show full quote

SVHS wrote on 2023-12-18, 04:58:

Book 8088 V2 just arrived a few questions: […]
Show full quote

Book 8088 V2 just arrived a few questions:

-Any suggestions installing IMG files from WinWorldPC?
-Best way to run EGA or VGA for Windows 3.0? Seems to run CGA 2 colour of the box. I came across this on another thread
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/win … -8088-xt.35866/
-I am interested in running Windows 2.x. Does it support EGA or VGA out of the box? Will it run on Book 8088?
Thanks again!

For installations that require booting, like Windows or DOS itself, I ended up using an external ISA Super I/O card and a Gotek. I don't know how else it could be done since at least with stock and proper Sergey BIOS the USB is not bootable.
Otherwise you can extract the files using for example WinImage and use a usb drive (remember max 2GB and FAT16).

VGA didn't work for me so I switched to EGA which works and looks pretty good. Essentially it seems the issue with V2 is that they borked something in the LCD controller firmware and video modes with more than 350 vertical pixels simply don't work.

I'm not familiar with Windows 2.x video modes, but everything up to Windows 3.0a will run

SVHS wrote on 2023-12-18, 20:08:

How did you enable EGA in Windows 3.0?

When you're fresh installing you just tell it when the moment comes (it's obvious), otherwise in the Main window open Windows Setup and then go to Options and then Change System Settings and you pick EGA from the Display drop down menu.

It will ask you the install disks for the extra files, should be possible to point it to them in the usb drive or a mounted drive using mTCP NetDrive

1st post for posterity;

I bought one on black friday and have been playing around with it. The book 8088 only supplies +5v and +12v, any cards that require -5v will kill the display and you'll get a 'no signal' error when powering on.

If anyone plans to use it to play around with 80's expansion cards, Phil/Necroware's voltage blaster works, but you're losing 1/3 expansion slots. It might be worth monitoring aliexpress to see if they start selling an expansion board with more slots.

Gennadios wrote on 2023-12-21, 01:43:

1st post for posterity;

I bought one on black friday and have been playing around with it. The book 8088 only supplies +5v and +12v, any cards that require -5v will kill the display and you'll get a 'no signal' error when powering on.

If anyone plans to use it to play around with 80's expansion cards, Phil/Necroware's voltage blaster works, but you're losing 1/3 expansion slots. It might be worth monitoring aliexpress to see if they start selling an expansion board with more slots.

Are you sure this is the issue? I checked the expansion board and there is a 79M05 connected to the ISA slot and chained from the -12V so both negative voltages are provided.

I did have the same issue of the machine not actually starting and getting the "no signal" error but I don't think it's for the lack of negative voltages.
I think it has something to do with the charging circuitry or how it switches from internal to external power because for instance I can get it when I turn on the machine with cards connected and powered by an external PSU (not the provided one but another stolen from a brand name router) but I don't if I disconnect the external DC power and turn on again the machine.
Also surprisingly if I power the machine from battery and only then attach the external DC supply it would continue to work, however with external power some ISA cards were behaving weirdly (maybe the internal power conversion from 12V is too noisy?)

It's possible the voltage blaster is just stabilizing the power rails more than providing the negative voltages that are already there

SergeK wrote on 2023-12-04, 06:12:

Actually, the use of EPROM puzzles me. I think no one makes new UV EPROMs, only OTP EPROMs. Flash ROMs are being manufactured, and quite inexpensive (e.g. SST39SF010A), older no longer manufactured Flash ROMs are also cheaply available.

Hi, Serge! Thank you for your reply. I will convey your suggestions to Shan Zhongyu.

In the Chinese market, UV EPROMs are still easily available and cheaper than EEPROMs. They came from dismantled electronic waste. Developed countries previously shipped a large amount of their discarded electronic devices to China, causing severe environmental pollution while creating an exceptionally inexpensive second-hand electronic market . The NEC V20 and GD5429 used in Book8088 also come from similar sources.

In China, there's a computer subculture known as "garbage guys"（ 垃圾佬 ） This term refers to individuals who reuse electronic waste to construct functional computers at unbelievably low prices. Focusing on price and performance, they create a competitive atmosphere similar to demoscene in some aspect. However, this practice remains relatively underground with no publicly known competitions or events.

SergeK wrote on 2023-12-04, 06:12:

I guess, for V2 we want it to be reverted to a VGA-compatible firmware... as you might know higher resolution VGA modes don't work well on V2 😉

Perhaps the reason for retaining the CGA LCD controller firmware could be that Book8088 v2 still designed an detachable CGA graphics card. In fact, the ability to swap graphics cards appeared earlier than in Book8088 v1. At least before the release of Book8088 v1, zhblue had a prototype using a detachable VGA card. The CPLD-based CGA graphics card was completed later.

SergeK wrote on 2023-12-04, 06:12:

Why nostalgia collectors would want to get an "old new" hardware?

Due to Japan's influence, in China, there's a close connection between vintage computer collectors and the "otaku" community. Many of them share an interest in collect figurines and model building kits. The founder of ClockworkPi mentioned this during a previous discussion about Gameshell. The SHARGE Retro 35, designed by the SSPAI.com team, is a USB charger that mimics the appearance of early Compact Macintosh computers, despite lacking any functional software related to it. From this perspective, the design of the Book8088 as a functional figurine seems viable for the market.

On Xianyu (goofish.com), Shan Zhongyu once listed a educational motherboard designed for a microcomputer principles course. However, due to a lack of interest within the Chinese community, the board was completed in its design but never mass-produced. It's possible that the AT-style keyboard code in the Book8088 BIOS related to this board.

微机原理 = microcomputer principles
分立芯片 = discrete chips
DOS系统 = DOS system

pengan wrote on 2023-12-22, 09:37:

Hi, Serge! Thank you for your reply. I will convey your suggestions to Shan Zhongyu. […]
Show full quote

SergeK wrote on 2023-12-04, 06:12:

Actually, the use of EPROM puzzles me. I think no one makes new UV EPROMs, only OTP EPROMs. Flash ROMs are being manufactured, and quite inexpensive (e.g. SST39SF010A), older no longer manufactured Flash ROMs are also cheaply available.

Hi, Serge! Thank you for your reply. I will convey your suggestions to Shan Zhongyu.

In the Chinese market, UV EPROMs are still easily available and cheaper than EEPROMs. They came from dismantled electronic waste. Developed countries previously shipped a large amount of their discarded electronic devices to China, causing severe environmental pollution while creating an exceptionally inexpensive second-hand electronic market . The NEC V20 and GD5429 used in Book8088 also come from similar sources.

In China, there's a computer subculture known as "garbage guys"（ 垃圾佬 ） This term refers to individuals who reuse electronic waste to construct functional computers at unbelievably low prices. Focusing on price and performance, they create a competitive atmosphere similar to demoscene in some aspect. However, this practice remains relatively underground with no publicly known competitions or events.

SergeK wrote on 2023-12-04, 06:12:

I guess, for V2 we want it to be reverted to a VGA-compatible firmware... as you might know higher resolution VGA modes don't work well on V2 😉

Perhaps the reason for retaining the CGA LCD controller firmware could be that Book8088 v2 still designed an detachable CGA graphics card. In fact, the ability to swap graphics cards appeared earlier than in Book8088 v1. At least before the release of Book8088 v1, zhblue had a prototype using a detachable VGA card. The CPLD-based CGA graphics card was completed later.

SergeK wrote on 2023-12-04, 06:12:

Why nostalgia collectors would want to get an "old new" hardware?

Due to Japan's influence, in China, there's a close connection between vintage computer collectors and the "otaku" community. Many of them share an interest in collect figurines and model building kits. The founder of ClockworkPi mentioned this during a previous discussion about Gameshell. The SHARGE Retro 35, designed by the SSPAI.com team, is a USB charger that mimics the appearance of early Compact Macintosh computers, despite lacking any functional software related to it. From this perspective, the design of the Book8088 as a functional figurine seems viable for the market.

On Xianyu (goofish.com), Shan Zhongyu once listed a educational motherboard designed for a microcomputer principles course. However, due to a lack of interest within the Chinese community, the board was completed in its design but never mass-produced. It's possible that the AT-style keyboard code in the Book8088 BIOS related to this board.
mmexport1702448661220.jpg
微机原理 = microcomputer principles
分立芯片 = discrete chips
DOS系统 = DOS system

This prototype looks very cool actually!