VOGONS


First post, by Vagabund2k

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Hi Vogons,

Maybe you can help me 😊 Recently, I purchased a computer on a whim at a good price, without knowing its exact components and functionality beforehand. It was only labeled as "486 AMD." Though it wasn't a 486, the purchase turned out to be a stroke of luck:

Motherboard: EP-MVP3G-M (Super Socket 7, ATX)
CPU: AMD-K6-2 450
VGA: Voodoo 3 2000 PCI
RAM: 128 MB SDRAM 100Mhz
Audio: Creative Ensoniq Audio PCI 5200
Drives: CD / CD-RW / 3.5” Floppy / 5.25” Floppy

When I tried to boot up the computer for the first time, it didn't start.

Symptoms:

- No display
- Fans spin
- CPU heatsink warms up
- No signals from the PC speaker (Error Beep Codes)

The system didn't even complete the POST successfully.

I then took the following steps:

- Removed all components
- Replaced CMOS Battery
- Replaced the CPU with an AMD-K6-2 500
- Set jumpers correctly
- Reassembled everything

With success, the system booted up cleanly. After about 20 minutes of operation, the PC speaker emitted a siren-like signal, prompting me to shut it down immediately. After a brief investigation, I found that the signal indicated the CPU temperature was too high. So, I booted it up again and monitored the temperatures constantly. The CPU temperature steadily climbed to 60°C, and then a blue screen appeared – this time without a warning signal from the PC speaker. At that time, the system had no case fans.

Subsequently, I upgraded the cooling system:

- Replaced the CPU heatsink with a new one
- Replaced the stock CPU fan with a Noctua NF-A4x20 FLX (40mm)
- Installed 2 case fans (2 x Noctua NF-A8 ULN)
- Expanded RAM to 384 MB while I was at it
- Reassembled everything

With excitement, I turned on the system again, but encountered the same error as during the first boot – no display, no beep, no POST. I then disconnected and tested each connected component one by one to see if the computer would at least produce a beep code during boot. Nothing, not even when only the CPU was left on the motherboard.

Next, I removed the motherboard and power supply from the case and placed them on a piece of cardboard. I installed RAM and VGA, connected the power supply, and started the computer. Lo and behold – it went through the POST, but couldn't boot due to the lack of a connected hard drive. I thought, "Great," and reassembled everything back into the case. But once again, the same problem appeared – no display, no beep code.

Now, I suspect there might be a short circuit somewhere, either in the power supply or on the motherboard/case. My plan is to take the following steps:

- Replace the Power Supply Unit
- Replace the motherboard standoffs

I know that using a new PSU with old hardware can be tricky, and when it comes to electrical matters, I'm unfortunately completely unaware. Could you recommend a current power supply that I can use in this build? The only ISA card I'll be using is an Orpheus 2, and it doesn't require -5V.

Attached is a picture of the current power supply and the motherboard. Also a picture of the only part on the Motherboard which looks a bit...suspect.

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Reply 1 of 12, by the3dfxdude

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In a situation like this where you have a configuration where it comes on, and the normal way where it does not, the best thing you can do is just do one very tiny assembly step at a time and then immediately try a power on and see if it works. So first step you can try is very carefully lay the board in the case with the motherboard side laying flat without any screws so it is loose but normally positioned. Hook up power carefully, keeping the board in the right spot. If that works, then you have one step eliminated. Then insert the I/O shield, try again. The each screw one by one trying each time. Then each front panel connection one by one. Then the video card, etc. And finally the hard drive. You will eventually hit a step that does not work, assuming there is a fault somewhere.

Edit: Per the question on the CPU temperature and system stability, I do recommend measuring the output of those voltage regulators and power supply as you move through the steps above.

Last edited by the3dfxdude on 2023-07-31, 14:34. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 2 of 12, by Deunan

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Vagabund2k wrote on 2023-07-31, 09:25:

The CPU temperature steadily climbed to 60°C, and then a blue screen appeared – this time without a warning signal from the PC speaker. At that time, the system had no case fans.

Try applying a bit of pressure (with your finger) to the mobo chipset (both north and southbridge). You have BGA chips and some of these can, due to manufacturing defects or improper soldering, develop cracks in the solder balls. In its early stages, when very few balls are affected, the mobo might appear to work but be unstable when flexed or with temperature changes.

60C on the CPU is not great but also not terrible. That being said the CPU socket iteself might also have issues related to heat cycling - if it's not cracked solder then working the lever a few times might help seat the pins better. Try it.

Reply 4 of 12, by Vagabund2k

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the3dfxdude wrote on 2023-07-31, 13:31:

In a situation like this where you have a configuration where it comes on, and the normal way where it does not, the best thing you can do is just do one very tiny assembly step at a time and then immediately try a power on and see if it works. So first step you can try is very carefully lay the board in the case with the motherboard side laying flat without any screws so it is loose but normally positioned. Hook up power carefully, keeping the board in the right spot. If that works, then you have one step eliminated. Then insert the I/O shield, try again. The each screw one by one trying each time. Then each front panel connection one by one. Then the video card, etc. And finally the hard drive. You will eventually hit a step that does not work, assuming there is a fault somewhere.

Edit: Per the question on the CPU temperature and system stability, I do recommend measuring the output of those voltage regulators and power supply as you move through the steps above.

This did the trick. Put it back together screw by screw, cable by cable. Thank god, it was just the Cable to the resetbutton. Would have never expected that.
Thanks to you and everybody else who gave tips.

I will now stress test the system and check if I have managed to address the temperature issue, then I will report back.

But out of curiosity, are there any current power supplies available on the market that are compatible with ATX Socket 7 / Super Socket 7? (Excluding the -5V rail)

Reply 5 of 12, by Vagabund2k

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Okay, that was a ride. The system booted cleanly with the existing installation (Windows ME) from the previous owner. I spent 30 minutes exploring everything, lots of beautiful old software – like a time capsule from the year 2000. That was already an improvement compared to before. Installed Orpheus 2 drivers... installed GUS drivers. 2-3 restarts. The CPU temperature was consistently around 56 to 58°C. Then I started the game "Raptor," which was among many others on the hard drive. I went through the menu, started the game, played for 5 seconds... and the PC speaker alarm went off again (temperature warning). The monitoring tool (MBProbe) came to the foreground, CPU temperature blinking red (62°C), and the gunshot sound from Raptor kept looping because the game froze. What a cacophony – I felt like I was on a crashing spaceship 😁 I took a photo, attached it below. In my opinion, the voltage looks okay (K6-2-500), what do you think? Strangely, the chassis fans are not recognized, neither by the BIOS nor by MBProbe, but they are running.

BTW: I I followed Deunan's tips.

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Reply 6 of 12, by Deunan

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Vagabund2k wrote on 2023-07-31, 18:56:

The monitoring tool (MBProbe) came to the foreground, CPU temperature blinking red (62°C)

Hm, that fan you have on photos, is it working? Not going very slow or something? I have a mobo with K6-2 400MHz and the fan is 12V but I run it at 5V - and it's enough too cool the CPU. Plus it's a slow, quiet fan to begin with. I do have a bigger heatsink though.

Things to try/check:
- remove the heatsink, make sure somebody didn't forget to peel off the plastic protector from thermal pad
- if thermal pad is badly damaged or gone (or was never there) then clean the CPU and bottom of the heatsink and reapply some thermal grease
- try a bigger of faster fan, see if it improves anything (but only after you do above steps), if it does but the new fan is too loud then you need bigger heatsink for this CPU
- lastly, depening on how your case is filled with cards and cables, you might need additional fan(s) to cool the interior

If the heatsink seems to be stuck for good then don't force it, let the CPU heat up to 50C or more first and then power the PC off and try to twist the heatsink off the CPU.

BTW the alarm temperature can usually be set in BIOS, I think 60C is within reason (although try improving it) so perhaps you can just bump this setting to 70C and maybe that stop the alarms. If there is no BIOS setting for this then your monitoring software is doing it - configure it there.

Reply 7 of 12, by Vagabund2k

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Deunan wrote on 2023-07-31, 19:36:
Hm, that fan you have on photos, is it working? Not going very slow or something? I have a mobo with K6-2 400MHz and the fan is […]
Show full quote
Vagabund2k wrote on 2023-07-31, 18:56:

The monitoring tool (MBProbe) came to the foreground, CPU temperature blinking red (62°C)

Hm, that fan you have on photos, is it working? Not going very slow or something? I have a mobo with K6-2 400MHz and the fan is 12V but I run it at 5V - and it's enough too cool the CPU. Plus it's a slow, quiet fan to begin with. I do have a bigger heatsink though.

Things to try/check:
- remove the heatsink, make sure somebody didn't forget to peel off the plastic protector from thermal pad
- if thermal pad is badly damaged or gone (or was never there) then clean the CPU and bottom of the heatsink and reapply some thermal grease
- try a bigger of faster fan, see if it improves anything (but only after you do above steps), if it does but the new fan is too loud then you need bigger heatsink for this CPU
- lastly, depening on how your case is filled with cards and cables, you might need additional fan(s) to cool the interior

If the heatsink seems to be stuck for good then don't force it, let the CPU heat up to 50C or more first and then power the PC off and try to twist the heatsink off the CPU.

BTW the alarm temperature can usually be set in BIOS, I think 60C is within reason (although try improving it) so perhaps you can just bump this setting to 70C and maybe that stop the alarms. If there is no BIOS setting for this then your monitoring software is doing it - configure it there.

The CPU fan runs at 5000+ RPM as advertised. There was no thermal pad with the new heatsink/fan and there is also no plastic / foil protector on the heatsink. This may sound stupid but i have never seen anybody using thermal paste / thermal pad with a K6-2. The Heatsink / Fan just gotclipped to the CPU. May this be the Problem?

Reply 8 of 12, by bloodem

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Vagabund2k wrote on 2023-07-31, 17:19:

But out of curiosity, are there any current power supplies available on the market that are compatible with ATX Socket 7 / Super Socket 7? (Excluding the -5V rail)

All good quality ATX PSUs will work just fine with a SS7 build.

Vagabund2k wrote on 2023-07-31, 19:57:

This may sound stupid but i have never seen anybody using thermal paste / thermal pad with a K6-2. The Heatsink / Fan just gotclipped to the CPU. May this be the Problem?

I would say that this is very likely the problem if the cooler is otherwise OK. I’ve always used thermal paste on most CPUs.
23 years ago, when I upgraded my Pentium MMX 166 to a K6-2 500 I also used a white cheap thermal paste on the latter.

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 9 of 12, by chrismeyer6

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Vagabund2k wrote on 2023-07-31, 19:57:
Deunan wrote on 2023-07-31, 19:36:
Hm, that fan you have on photos, is it working? Not going very slow or something? I have a mobo with K6-2 400MHz and the fan is […]
Show full quote
Vagabund2k wrote on 2023-07-31, 18:56:

The monitoring tool (MBProbe) came to the foreground, CPU temperature blinking red (62°C)

Hm, that fan you have on photos, is it working? Not going very slow or something? I have a mobo with K6-2 400MHz and the fan is 12V but I run it at 5V - and it's enough too cool the CPU. Plus it's a slow, quiet fan to begin with. I do have a bigger heatsink though.

Things to try/check:
- remove the heatsink, make sure somebody didn't forget to peel off the plastic protector from thermal pad
- if thermal pad is badly damaged or gone (or was never there) then clean the CPU and bottom of the heatsink and reapply some thermal grease
- try a bigger of faster fan, see if it improves anything (but only after you do above steps), if it does but the new fan is too loud then you need bigger heatsink for this CPU
- lastly, depening on how your case is filled with cards and cables, you might need additional fan(s) to cool the interior

If the heatsink seems to be stuck for good then don't force it, let the CPU heat up to 50C or more first and then power the PC off and try to twist the heatsink off the CPU.

BTW the alarm temperature can usually be set in BIOS, I think 60C is within reason (although try improving it) so perhaps you can just bump this setting to 70C and maybe that stop the alarms. If there is no BIOS setting for this then your monitoring software is doing it - configure it there.

The CPU fan runs at 5000+ RPM as advertised. There was no thermal pad with the new heatsink/fan and there is also no plastic / foil protector on the heatsink. This may sound stupid but i have never seen anybody using thermal paste / thermal pad with a K6-2. The Heatsink / Fan just gotclipped to the CPU. May this be the Problem?

You need thermal paste between the CPU and heatsink. Every cpu I've ever had from socket 7 to now has some sort of thermal paste or pad.

Reply 10 of 12, by Deunan

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Vagabund2k wrote on 2023-07-31, 19:57:

This may sound stupid but i have never seen anybody using thermal paste / thermal pad with a K6-2. The Heatsink / Fan just gotclipped to the CPU.

Well, you can get away with that on 486, some Pentiums too, but the problem is the CPU top surface is not perfectly flat, and the the heatsink will not sit on it well. In some cases there might be too little contact surface to pull the heat away. In order to prevent any possible overheating it's always better to apply the thermal paste, no matter what CPU it is. Yes, it's more messy but the results are usually well worth it.

Reply 11 of 12, by the3dfxdude

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The k6-2 non plus at 500mhz is nearly the hottest for it's family. I would add thermal paste. But I would also check the temperatures directly yourself. I don't think that it would be locking only hitting 62 C. Could there be a thermal monitor halting the system? Could it be wrong? It's happened before. (Yes check the BIOS) There could also be something else wrong. I don't like the leads looking cooked on the vrm. This could be a time to just try another known good CPU to narrow the problem.

Reply 12 of 12, by majestyk

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The Epox MVP3-Gx mainboards were hit by the capacitor plague big time.
Most instabilities they show are directly or indirectly caused by dried out electrolytics. Sometimes you couldn´t even finish a windows installation. Dead electrolytics also make the chipset and CPU overheat.
It´s highly recommended to replace all the electrolytics in the VRM-circuits before looking for any other reasons for instabilities!