VOGONS


First post, by AngryByDefault

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Hi all,

I'm trying to find a 128 bit GeForce 4, preferably in Low Profile format.
I have a couple of 64bits unit already and I recently bought another one I was "pretty sure" it was 128 bits because of its chips... well, it wasn't...

I know it's not easy to tell them apart, and I've read that the low profile units are usually 64 bits.

Still, I wonder if there's any chance this could be a "good one", having no empty memory placeholders and not having chips mounted on the same places at both sides of the card.

TIA

sellers pics
mem markings not clear enough
strings on the label got me no matches on GG search.

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Reply 1 of 23, by RandomStranger

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It looks like this Palit MX440:
https://www.tiger-technik.de/Grafikkarten/Gra … e-g74::980.html
The product page claims it's 128 bit. I don't know how reliable source this is.

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Reply 3 of 23, by analog_programmer

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This is Palit Daytona nVidia GeForce4 MX440-8X 64MB DDR 128bit. I have exactly the same videocard and it is declared as with 128bit memory bus, but better off check with GPU-Z. The DDR chips on my card are PMI HP58C2128164SAT-6 and I can't find datasheet for them.

Last edited by analog_programmer on 2023-08-11, 14:40. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 5 of 23, by AngryByDefault

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Hi all, thanks for all your replies !

RandomStranger wrote on 2023-08-11, 12:44:

It looks like this Palit MX440:
https://www.tiger-technik.de/Grafikkarten/Gra … e-g74::980.html
The product page claims it's 128 bit. I don't know how reliable source this is.

It is very very similar, yes! Thanks.

PARKE wrote on 2023-08-11, 12:54:

So far I haven't found a method that is reliable enough. Although that thread has some comments that I will re-check,. Thanks for the link.

analog_programmer wrote on 2023-08-11, 12:59:

This is Palit Daytona nVidia GeForce4 MX440-8X 64MB DDR 128bit. I have exactly the same videocard and it is declared as with 128bit memory bus, but better off check with GPU-Z. The DDR chips on my card are PMI HP58C2128164SAT-6 and I can't find datasheet for them.

The seller says he doesn't have the means to check that out.
So I bought it a few hours ago, based on the comments you've shared with me so far.
We'll find out in a few days, hopefully.

Karbist wrote on 2023-08-11, 13:59:

Memory chips are 66 pin TSOP II package, so they are 16bit each and with 4 of them it should be 64bit mx440 card.
32bit memory chips are either 86 pin TSOP II or 100 pin TQFP packages.

So, are you counting the pins on the soldered mem chips? I don't think I had seen that suggestion before, if so I'll test that theory against my cards. Interesting....
I assume that should be valid for (i.e.) FX5xxx, GF6xxx and Radeon 9xxx cards?
If so, any rule of thumbs for which cards that theory would NOT be valid?
TIA.

Reply 6 of 23, by Karbist

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Here's two tnt2 m64 with identical pcb, one has 32MB memory with 4 x 16 bit 66pin ram chip and the other one has 16MB memory with 2 x 32 bit 86 pin ram chip,

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Reply 8 of 23, by AngryByDefault

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PARKE wrote on 2023-08-12, 12:47:

I think that this link sufficiently supports the idea that it is a 64 bit card:
https://www.classicvga.com/product-page/geforce4-mx440

ugh... starting to wish I didn't hurry so much... you're probably right.

Thanks for that link, it's new to me.
Interesting how it kinda puts into question the "rules" of chips amounts and positioning as a "guide"...

Reply 9 of 23, by AngryByDefault

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Karbist wrote on 2023-08-12, 12:27:

Here's two tnt2 m64 with identical pcb, one has 32MB memory with 4 x 16 bit 66pin ram chip and the other one has 16MB memory with 2 x 32 bit 86 pin ram chip,

TNT2.jpg

OK, maybe I am being silly but I coun't 86 pins in the left card but only 54 in the right one.
Am I missing something?

Reply 10 of 23, by Karbist

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AngryByDefault wrote on 2023-08-12, 16:27:

OK, maybe I am being silly but I coun't 86 pins in the left card but only 54 in the right one.
Am I missing something?

You are right this one has 54 pins, the point is you can't fit 32bit data lines in 66 pin package, every datasheet I have read for these chips has maximum 16 bit configuration.

Reply 11 of 23, by AngryByDefault

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Thank you bearing with me,
I guess that also means any card with 8 chips should be 128 because A) "8 chips x 16 bit per card = 128 bits",
but also because B) using 8 chips to manufacture a 64bits card is likely a not cost effective.

Now, what is your take in this case? :

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I ask because I happen to have this exact model and it is indeed a 128 bits card, even thou it looks absolutely lame.
Unfortunately mine is not working well, which is why I wanted to replace it 🙁

TIA

Reply 12 of 23, by Karbist

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Card can have 8 x 16 bit memory chips but still be a 64 bit card, they are just in parallel to double the memory size.

the memory chips in that photo are 32 bit FBGA package, there are 144 pads under the chip.

Reply 13 of 23, by Kiwi86

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That appears to be the same GeForce 4 MX440 I had years ago, down to the color, form factor, heatsink, outputs, exact capacitor layout, it all looks identical. Specifically, mine was a "GeForce4 MX440 w/AGP8x" at least as identified by drivers, and had 64 MB.

I never did know what brand it was. It came from some brand-less White box baby-AT socket 370 PC that was in a school. Trying to look it up back then, I never found anything definitive (I recall finding clues it might be either AOpen or PNY, but nothing concrete outside some online listings with a matching picture supposedly tagging it as either brand), and this thread isn't helping since those same things nowadays suggest it's Palit? But there's something I'm noticing...

The image in the first post has PMI (or DMI, whatever it is) branded memory. one of the links shows Hynix memory, and yet another link shows yet a third type of memory, yet the cards appear identical outside of this. I don't member what memory mine had, either (I want to say it was the same one pictured in the first post but I'm not certain). Whatever brand it was, did they make multiple of them with different memory? or did multiple brands use the same card and choose different memory? Seems to be a small mystery.

What I can tell you is this, at least if that is the same one I had. I recall that the memory used runs at a slower speed than the usual specs for the GeForce 4 MX440 with AGP8x state (should be 250 MHz/500 Mhz DDR, or at least 200 MHz/400 MHz DDR for the non-AGP8x version). Both links support this, so it seems regardless of what memory it has, it's slower than it should be. I found this out while I was learning to overclock, because the core of 275 MHz went to 300 MHz+, but the memory had absolutely no headroom (or very little) even though it was already below the spec I recall Nvidia listed it should be running at. I recall being disappointed but it explained why my card felt slower than results I found online. I think it was indeed as low as 150 MHz (300 MHz DDR), which matches what two earlier links show (one lists 300 MHz for memory speed, and another shows a GPU-Z screen showing 150 MHz).

In other words, beware as it's liable to be gimped below standard specs (and the MX440 was slow to begin with), regardless of bus width. I do believe it was 64-bit anyway.

Reply 14 of 23, by PARKE

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AngryByDefault wrote on 2023-08-12, 16:25:

ugh... starting to wish I didn't hurry so much... you're probably right.
Thanks for that link, it's new to me.
Interesting how it kinda puts into question the "rules" of chips amounts and positioning as a "guide"...

If you are still aiming for a gf4 mmx with 128 bits you better look for a 460 model instead of 440. There is also a 460 that was marketed as 480 if I remember correctly but that was the same thing with AGP 8x.

Reply 15 of 23, by amigopi

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In case it helps anyone, here are some pics of a GF4 MX440 that is 128 bit, at least according to HWiNFO32:

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Compared to a 64-bit version of the same card, with both running at 1024x768x32, it did about 22% better in 3DMark 2000 on my P3-733 but the framerate difference in games (Q2, Q3:A, Serious Sam 1) was negligible, less than 3 frames per second.

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Reply 16 of 23, by AngryByDefault

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Hi all,
Got the card already and it works, but I still haven't had the time to plug a drive with win98 to run Everest and verify its bus width (I don't find that on hwinfo?...).

I'll check it by Saturday and let you know.
I also have a bunch of questions/comments about what you've posted lately in the thread.

Regards!

Reply 17 of 23, by AngryByDefault

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hi All, it's me again...

I'll make two posts,one addressing several comments and another one dedicated to the "how can we tell?" issue.

So, the first one...

I checked the card with Everest and it is, unfortunately, a 64 bits card.

amigopi wrote on 2023-08-16, 20:27:

In case it helps anyone, here are some pics of a GF4 MX440 that is 128 bit, at least according to HWiNFO32:
[...images...]
Compared to a 64-bit version of the same card, with both running at 1024x768x32, it did about 22% better in 3DMark 2000 on my P3-733 but the framerate difference in games (Q2, Q3:A, Serious Sam 1) was negligible, less than 3 frames per second.

Hum... Nice to know that. Maybe I shluldn't feel too bad about not finding a 128bit mx440 then. Thank you.

PARKE wrote on 2023-08-16, 15:32:

If you are still aiming for a gf4 mmx with 128 bits you better look for a 460 model instead of 440. There is also a 460 that was marketed as 480 if I remember correctly but that was the same thing with AGP 8x.

Around here I've never seen a "great" card on offer. No mx460, no "Ti" editions, no FX5700+ cards, etc.
So I'd gladly settle for a 128bits mx440 😀

Kiwi86 wrote on 2023-08-16, 15:15:

That appears to be the same GeForce 4 MX440 I had years ago, down to the color, form factor, heatsink, outputs, exact capacitor layout, it all looks identical. Specifically, mine was a "GeForce4 MX440 w/AGP8x" at least as identified by drivers, and had 64 MB.
[...]
In other words, beware as it's liable to be gimped below standard specs (and the MX440 was slow to begin with), regardless of bus width. I do believe it was 64-bit anyway.

If I understand correctly, yeah you're right, Everest says real-clock and effective-clock are 150MHz/300MHz so I guess it is exactly as you presume.
Oh well, at least it was cheap and matches nicely a purple ECS mainboard I have ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ...

Reply 18 of 23, by AngryByDefault

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So, now, on this topic... I thought we were on to something but maybe we're going full circle and back to square one...

Karbist wrote on 2023-08-12, 21:07:

Card can have 8 x 16 bit memory chips but still be a 64 bit card, they are just in parallel to double the memory size.

Is it possible to know just by looking at it if the mem chips are in parallel ??
Because if not that means there is no way to figure its bus width...

What I mean is, you could tell it has 16bits or 32bits chips by counting its pads, but if the resulting value can be altered by the "parallel" factor then you can't really tell without knowing that variable.

Actually, what I had read about chips being on both sides of the card maybe was referring to this. The statement was that the positioning meant chips at both sides shared data paths making bus-width effectively halved.
BUT!! at least one of the cards I have has 8 chips positioned this way and it's still 128 bits, so the positioning argument doesn't seem to hold really...

Karbist wrote on 2023-08-12, 21:07:

the memory chips in that photo are 32 bit FBGA package, there are 144 pads under the chip.

And now that I think about it, what prevents a card with 4 x 32 bit FBGA chips to have them in parallel mode and end up being 64 bits ? And, again, would it be possible to figure that out just by looking at a cards picture?

Regards.

Reply 19 of 23, by Sphere478

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At OP Well, look up the data sheet for the ram chips.

If total bus width of all chips is less than 128 then 128-bit isn’t possible.

But if it is 128 or larger, it is possible that ram is double stacked as 64-bit.

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