paradigital wrote on 2023-09-06, 16:16:

The survey seems to miss the obvious. Why would anyone buy a repro for THE SAME PRICE as you can buy an original?

If the repros were significantly cheaper then I’d get it, but the pieces of hardware I’d want to buy repros of are bits you can’t find unless spending thousands or tens of thousands of (insert currency here).

I can’t fill in the survey as it assumes that if I wouldn’t buy repro hardware at its existing price, I wouldn’t buy it at a lower one.

The rationale is the following:

To isolate just 1 concept: Passion for "old" or passion for "old-like even if it's new"?

I wanted to understand how much retrocomputing fans are fans because they love old products because of their age VS how much they are fans because they love the memories of old products, but they don't care that the actual metal or plastic are actually aged: if it were brand new but identical to the old one, that's great anyway.

If I added financial advantages, it would have skewed my analysis, causing false positives of "new remakes" preferences, because of the price.

Therefore, the logical conclusion was to leave everything else identical, and isolate the only difference in the age of the products.

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-06, 11:27:

[...] […]
Show full quote

[...]

Good points!!! Thanks, I'm modifying the survey...

So to answer your points:

1) Assume the price of the new replica is identical to the corresponding original old product you'd find in the used market

Problem is, there's not one price.

A vintage part is generally at its most expensive in 'buy it now' options on certain auction sites, where sellers intentionally overprice an item they can afford to keep on sale amost indefinitely, hoping an impatient someone with deep pockets will bite. Then there's the prices actual auctions on the same sites go for. These tend to be a lot lower than buy-it-now prices, but are probably closer to what economic theory says the price should be. Then there are local classified ads where prices can be anything from unrealistically high to 'come pick this old crap up for free'.

So which one is this new old stuff priced at?

If I look at replicas. I've spent significant amounts on replica sound cards and keyboards (AdLib Gold replica and new keyboard with IBM modem F tooling, for example), but compared to what the items would originally have cost, indexed by a few decades' worth of inflation they were cheap. Not sure I would have bought them at that indexed rate indexed to now...

2) Yes: Improvements on obvious vulnerabilities that are universally recognized (such as the problem of the soldered batteries on motherboards) will be applied to the new replicas

That makes the prices incomparable. If I buy an old board with say bad caps and leaky Varta, it is worth far less than an identical board with good parts. If I buy a board someone else has spent time, money and risk on fixing those issues, it's worth more than a seemingly good board with original (decades old and likely to fail) parts.

I think this 'price' aspect needs much more focus and clarity before the answers of the questionnaire make any sense.

dionb wrote on 2023-09-06, 20:27:

Problem is...
I think this 'price' aspect needs much more focus and clarity before the answers of the questionnaire make any sense.

Good points.
I might have explained what you're pointing in my previous comment, the one above yours.

The focus here is to leave everything identical, except the age of the product, so assess whether retro-fans would be similarly passionate about new remakes or not.

So, I think I can further expand to answer to your request for clarification in the following way:

Say you are looking for an old product, like an early 90s case or CPU or whatever. Say you find it in the used market. If its price is too high, you ALREADY discard it. Not because it's old or not old (new remake). You discard it for the price. So, that case doesn't apply to the situation at hand here. So you keep looking in the used market... until you find that product, old and original, for a price that you consider acceptable and that you can afford. There! At that point my question comes:

You found it, the price is good, so you are about to buy, you're about to click "pay now", but wait a moment. A store offers you the same product, identical, only, re-made in 2023. Brand new. For the same price.

Which one do you prefer? The new one? The old one? Any of them, it's the same for you?

That's the intention of this survey.

If you ask me: How can a brand new motherboard cost the same ad an old crappy battery-leaked swollen-caps one?

That doesn't matter. It's off-topic, we're imagining a hypothetical situation. But if you insist in wanting a rational explanation, we can imagine one. A meteorite full of gold and other precious metals has been collected by the owner of the factory. He told nothing to no one and found a way to sell those metals without affecting their market value. He's making trillions while on one is realizing how. Since he loves retro computing, he's volunteering some of that fortune to build those products and sell them for the same price of old crappy ones. Or maybe he won 10 lotteries in a row. Or... whatever. It doesn't matter here.

The purpose of the survey is to exclude any other factor (especially money) that might influence a decision, leaving everything else equal, except the only 1 difference: Old or newly remade? That's what I am trying to understand, what people prefer.

Some things age really bad, like plastics.
I would prefer a non yellowed, non brittal replica device from the same quality over an old one any time.

DerBaum wrote on 2023-09-06, 20:49:

Some things age really bad, like plastics.
I would prefer a non yellowed, non brittal replica device from the same quality over an old one any time.

Good points!
So, beside satisfying you for its superior quality, would the fact that a new product does not truly come from decades ago dissatisfy you, or would the new replica also satisfy your need for retro hardware?

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-06, 20:53:

Good points!
So, beside satisfying you for its superior quality, would the fact that a new product does not truly come from decades ago dissatisfy you, or would the new replica also satisfy your need for retro hardware?

For me the charme of "retro" stuff is not the fact/feeling that its old.
If it looks the same, and works the same i am happy to waste my hours with "new old" parts instead of "old old" parts.

Of course its nice to repair and refurbish old broken parts or hunt for drivers, but its also nice to unbox a super clean thing that just works.

I do want stuff for the old machines but not the old parts with all the old part problems, but some modern compatibles levelaging all the progress that has been had since such as sound chips with excellent analog performance instead of relatively terrible offerings of the past. Spinning new silicon is very expensive however 🤣

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-06, 11:27:

konc wrote on 2023-09-06, 09:48:

Preparing a business plan? 😀

🤣!!!
You kidding! If I had the money, I'd certainly do that!

So, what's the point of your survey?

I answered the questions with the assumption that the new replicas would be cheaper than the current prices of second, third, etc.-hand retro parts, which is practically not happening at all. And there are many examples of that in the forum as well - insanely overpriced DIY-kits or preassembled expansion boards from projects copying old computer parts. Generally I don't see any point in producing and selling а few dozen pieces of cruelly overpriced "new old" PC-parts, but some people are pretty happy to spend their excess money on such oddities... So, again, what's the point of the survey?

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-06, 18:21:

I wanted to understand how much retrocomputing fans are fans because they love old products because of their age VS how much they are fans because they love the memories of old products, but they don't care that the actual metal or plastic are actually aged: if it were brand new but identical to the old one, that's great anyway.

Maybe you should have simply asked that 😀

As some have already pointed out, the price plays an important role and affects the answers to your questions
If the new thing costs the same as the old & used thing then only collectors will buy the old. Because if you actually want to USE the thing then you get more for the same price if you buy the new one: the old one has aged and will surely not work as good or for as long as the new one. So that's an unfair comparison and it's hardly possible to draw any conclusions from the answer.

By the way this is exactly what I wrote in my first comment 😀 A collector will prefer the original, a user the new one.

If the new price were the same as the original price back then, maybe even more due to inflation, then I would buy only very few selected new items that are still expensive today and that I really-really want to use for a longer time. Not because I love the original so much but because that would be an extremly expensive hobby.

So maybe you should simply ask: do you see yourself more as a collector or as a user. And the next problem will be that one can be both 😀

DerBaum wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:08:

For me the charm of "retro" stuff is not the fact/feeling that its old.
If it looks the same, and works the same i am happy to waste my hours with "new old" parts instead of "old old" parts.

Of course its nice to repair and refurbish old broken parts or hunt for drivers, but its also nice to unbox a super clean thing that just works.

Thank you. You perfectly answered my question.

And yes, the fun of repairing broken old parts is a thing in itself, however it's out of the scope of this survey.

Tiido wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:14:

I do want stuff for the old machines but not the old parts with all the old part problems, but some modern compatibles levelaging all the progress that has been had since such as sound chips with excellent analog performance instead of relatively terrible offerings of the past. Spinning new silicon is very expensive however 🤣

Other good point, thanks!

analog_programmer wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:16:

So, what's the point of your survey?

I answered the questions with the assumption that the new replicas would be cheaper than the current prices of second, third, etc.-hand retro parts, which is practically not happening at all. And there are many examples of that in the forum as well - insanely overpriced DIY-kits or preassembled expansion boards from projects copying old computer parts. Generally I don't see any point in producing and selling а few dozen pieces of cruelly overpriced "new old" PC-parts, but some people are pretty happy to spend their excess money on such oddities... So, again, what's the point of the survey?

The point of the survey is to assess whether or not new-old parts would lose their retro-charm for retro-passionate people compared to original old-old parts.

Money is out of the scope of this survey.

HanSolo wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:27:

Maybe you should have simply asked that :) […]
Show full quote

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-06, 18:21:

I wanted to understand how much retrocomputing fans are fans because they love old products because of their age VS how much they are fans because they love the memories of old products, but they don't care that the actual metal or plastic are actually aged: if it were brand new but identical to the old one, that's great anyway.

Maybe you should have simply asked that 😀

As some have already pointed out, the price plays an important role and affects the answers to your questions
If the new thing costs the same as the old, used thing then only collectors will buy the old. Because if you actually want to USE the thing then you get more for the same price if you buy the new one: the old one has aged and will surely not work as good or for as long as the new one. So that's an unfair comparison and it's hardly possible to draw any conclusions from the answer.

By the way this is exactly what I wrote in my first comment 😀 A collector will prefer the original, a user the new one.

If the new price were the same as the original price back then, maybe even more due to inflation, then I would buy only very few selected new items that are still expensive today and that I really-really want to use for a longer time. Not because I love the original so much but because that would be an extremly expensive hobby.

So maybe you should simply ask: do you see yourself more as a collector or as a user. And the next problem will be that one can be both 😀

Oooh good points! And well put. Yes indeed: collector or user? Or both! (Oh gosh!).

[As a side note, I am a bit of both. But I am definitely more of a collector than a user. Oddly, I'd prefer a new-old remake to an old-old original product. And myself am surprised as I write and I can't explain it! Perhaps, deep down, I am more of a user than a collector in my true nature, but the lack of free time 'forces' me to merely collect things instead of using them. Mmm... indeed, if I had plenty of free time, I'd have them all nicely set up, working on them, optimizing, installing, ready to use...and I'd use them regularly]

Well, I'll put it in a different way, as a question to everyone. Say your uncle is very, very rich. He hears that you're looking for an XXXXX (put whatever old vintage product here) in the used market. He tells you. I can give it to you, as a gift. But you must choose between 2 options, and you can only have 1 of them. I have exactly that product, old-old, and I can give it to you. Or, I can have my factory obtain the schematics, and rebuild a new-old replica from scratch, and I'll give it to you. It's a gift, so you need not to worry about spending money for an old thing that will possibly break in a few years, or to spend more money for a new remake because it's of a better quality, forget about money.
Which one do you prefer?

That's it.

(Unless we wanna open a can of worms: The charm of going in the stores like in the good old times, and seeing those old-fashioned beauties, plenty of them on shelves, behind the windows, showcased, and then picking and choosing, and the whole experience of purchasing... but that complicates things)

I'd probably buy both old and new. I'm a completionist. I want everything. Even though I have no room for what I already have.

analog_programmer wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:16:

And there are many examples of that in the forum as well - insanely overpriced DIY-kits or preassembled expansion boards from projects copying old computer parts. Generally I don't see any point in producing and selling ? few dozen pieces of cruelly overpriced "new old" PC-parts, but some people are pretty happy to spend their excess money on such oddities...

Slightly offtopic here: honestly I don't think there are any homebrew projects that are overpriced. Expensive - yes. But not overpriced. Developing this stuff costs insanly much time, you need expensive tools, you have pay for prototypes, etc. If you would have to pay the real price for all this then the stuff would cost way more.

debs3759 wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:43:

I want everything. Even though I have no room for what I already have.

We feel you. Welcome to Hardwareoholics Anonymous 😀

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:34:

The point of the survey is to assess whether or not new-old parts would lose their retro-charm for retro-passionate people compared to original old-old parts.

Money is out of the scope of this survey.

Yes, there is not a single word "money" or "lower/higher price(s)" in your survey and thus maybe these words are out of the scope in the survey, but they're not out of the scope of "the real picture" (I mean the real picture of reality and living life). I t see no reason for me to buy some overpriced "new old" part, if I can bay a real old original part on acceptable price. And I also like to repair old/retro things.

I think for most of us, the reason to get into retrocomputers was exactly that - to restore old/retro machines and their parts, not just to collect assemble overpriced modern analogs. Of course, the newer generations now have other understandings of things and perhaps the hobby has already degenerated to - "check out my new super-duper expensive "retro" computer assembled from freshly manufactured parts". And what kind of old/retro computing is that? I'm not into this at all.

HanSolo wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:50:

Slightly offtopic here: honestly I don't think there are any homebrew projects that are overpriced. Expensive - yes. But not overpriced. Developing this stuff costs insanly much time, you need expensive tools, you have pay for prototypes, etc. If you would have to pay the real price for all this then the stuff would cost way more.

I respect the others hard work and everyone has rights to put his own price tag on its own production, but there are really overpriced projects here. And I don't mean new developments, but just 1:1 copies of old parts. I don't want to mention specific names, so as not to offend, but yes, some new "old" parts are exactly overpriced, just because they're brand new and mostly produced in a few dozen pieces.

debs3759 wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:43:

I'd probably buy both old and new. I'm a completionist. I want everything. Even though I have no room for what I already have.

🤣 !!!! I hear you brother!

HanSolo wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:50:

debs3759 wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:43:

I want everything. Even though I have no room for what I already have.

We feel you. Welcome to Hardwareoholics Anonymous 😀

Ahahahaha! Hey I'm there too! 🤣 🤣 (Well, I should say, I'm there too in my dreams and intentions. On the other hand, my money [or lack thereof I should say] keeps me out of the Hardwareholics Anonymous circle)

analog_programmer wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:51:

Yes, there is not a single word "money" or "lower/higher price(s)" in your survey and thus maybe these words are out of the scope in the survey, but they're not out of the scope of "the real picture" (I mean the real picture of reality and living life). I t see no reason for me to buy some overpriced "new old" part, if I can bay a real old original part on acceptable price. And I also like to repair old/retro things.

I think for most of us, the reason to get into retrocomputers was exactly that - to restore old/retro machines and their parts, not just to collect assemble overpriced modern analogs. Of course, the newer generations now have other understandings of things and perhaps the hobby has already degenerated to - "check out my new super-duper expensive "retro" computer assembled from freshly manufactured parts". And what kind of old/retro computing is that? I'm not into this at all.

Don't worry about money, brother. In the hypothetical scenario of my survey, the "new old" is not going to be overpriced. You found a real old original part "on acceptable price"? Okay, Imagine a store has an identical replica, newly made, for the same price [How? Not our problem here. In this hypothetical scenario, the price is the same. Maybe the factory owner won a ton of money and feels so nostalgic of the good old times that he wants to see all those goodies back in the stores' windows and shelves, so he gets in the business of remaking them at financial losses. He has trillions of dollars. Not our problems where he gets the money. Out of the scope of the survey].

Also, about the fun of repairing broken old parts and products: Yes, that's a thing in itself and of course it would not be satisfied by new-old replicas. No need for a survey there. Again, that is also out of the scope.

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:34:

The point of the survey is to assess whether or not new-old parts would lose their retro-charm for retro-passionate people compared to original old-old parts.

Money is out of the scope of this survey.

Still, I can't get it why to talk about things that will never happen?

Isn't it more reasonable to compare a pure old machine with old machine with newly made parts?

For example, there is a well known problem called a "Vinegar syndrome" when after some time LCD panel of the vintage laptop becomes completely unusable. Would I leave my vintage laptop like that or would I change it with a newly made LCD panel? Of course I will change it!

Same is true about any other part of it, even a plastic case if it won't be made in a 3-D printer of course.

So, in the end I'll find myself with a vintage machine that has a lot of newly made parts and I'll be much happier with it in this new condition than if it would stay without any changes and hardly operable.

And I think I'm not the only one who thinks the same.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-06, 22:19:

Still, I can't get it why to talk about things that will never happen?

I would say for the same reason people like role play games... Fun...

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-06, 22:19:

Still, I can't get it why to talk about things that will never happen?

Exactly! We just scratch out our keyboards as we write for things that will never gonna happen 😁

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-06, 22:19:

For example, there is a well known problem called a "Vinegar syndrome" when after some time LCD panel of the vintage laptop becomes completely unusable. Would I leave my vintage laptop like that or would I change it with a newly made LCD panel? Of course I will change it!

Consider that replacing a LCD panel of the laptop's display (or desktop monitor) is more of like replacing some electronic components on other computer/laptop parts.

DerBaum wrote on 2023-09-06, 22:25:

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-06, 22:19:

Still, I can't get it why to talk about things that will never happen?

I would say for the same reason people like role play games... Fun...

Maybe.

Never could understand why to play those role games instead of living a real life, which is also sort of a role play, but a more detailed and more complicated one.

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:34:

Perhaps, deep down, I am more of a user than a collector in my true nature, but the lack of free time 'forces' me to merely collect things instead of using them.

Maybe you're a hoarder? 🤣

analog_programmer wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:51:

I think for most of us, the reason to get into retrocomputers was exactly that - to restore old/retro machines and their parts, not just to collect assemble overpriced modern analogs.

If with 'restore' you mean 'repair', then I don't think so. I would argue that most don't have the skills (or time) to repair stuff. That even includes swapping caps. I think most got into it to relive a part of their youth. But that would probably be worth a survey .

analog_programmer wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:51:

HanSolo wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:50:

Slightly offtopic here: honestly I don't think there are any homebrew projects that are overpriced. Expensive - yes. But not overpriced. Developing this stuff costs insanly much time, you need expensive tools, you have pay for prototypes, etc. If you would have to pay the real price for all this then the stuff would cost way more.

I respect the others hard work and everyone has rights to put his own price tag on its own production, but there are really overpriced projects here. And I don't mean new developments, but just 1:1 copies of old parts. I don't want to mention specific names so as not to offend, but yes, some new "old" parts are exactly overpriced, just because they're brand new and mostly produced in a few dozen pieces.

That's difficult to discuss 'in general'. Even more so without talking to the ones behind those projects.
With all projects that I have followed so far I see how much time the guys invest. And that's only the part that's publicly visible. I am a programmer so I know how much time this takes.
All homebrew projects have the problem that the number of people who would buy it is very small. That's independent of the price. This hobby is just a very small niche.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-06, 22:19:

So, in the end I'll find myself with a vintage machine that has a lot of newly made parts ...

Which leads to the question: if at some point in time that machine consists only of new parts, is it still the same vintage machine? 🤣
Ship of Theseus

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-06, 22:03:

debs3759 wrote on 2023-09-06, 21:43:

I'd probably buy both old and new. I'm a completionist. I want everything. Even though I have no room for what I already have.

🤣 !!!! I hear you sister!

ftfy