HanSolo wrote on 2023-09-06, 22:37:

Which leads to the question: if at some point in time that machine consists only of new parts, is it still the same vintage machine? 🤣
Ship of Theseus

In theory Yes, but in reality there always will be original parts. And I prefer to talk about reality. 🙂

HanSolo wrote on 2023-09-06, 22:37:

If with 'restore' you mean 'repair', then I don't think so. I would argue that most don't have the skills (or time) to repair stuff. That even includes swapping caps. I think most got into it to relive a part of their youth. But that would probably be worth a survey .

I mean to (re)assemble some old computer, install some OS, software... write some code on it, etc. In my case repair jobs are the funniest part of this hobby, but you're right - most people prefer to not mess with electronics. That's why there are overpriced "new old" parts ready to be used for those with deep pockets and no hands (relax, I'm just kidding) 😀

HanSolo wrote on 2023-09-06, 22:37:

That's difficult to discuss 'in general'. Even more so without talking to the ones behind those projects.
With all projects that I have followed so far I see how much time the guys invest. And that's only the part that's publicly visible. I am a programmer so I know how much time this takes.
All homebrew projects have the problem that the number of people who would buy it is very small. That's independent of the price. This hobby is just a very small niche.

Again, I don't mean projects from scratch that yield some brand new products, albeit compatible with old computers, but complete copies of old PC-boards and parts. And you're pushing me to name a few overpriced new replicas, but I'll pass. In general, since I'm not interested in these new copies of original parts, I don't have problems with their high prices. Obviously there are plenty of people who need stuff like that, so these prices are their problem 😀 I'm just stating some facts from reality.

HanSolo wrote on 2023-09-06, 22:37:

Which leads to the question: if at some point in time that machine consists only of new parts, is it still the same vintage machine? 🤣
Ship of Theseus

If you change one bolt on your brand new car, is it the same car anymore? Of course it is the same car. If something isn't structurally altered and modified in terms of its function far beyond the original parameters, but only defective parts are replaced over time, then that thing remains virtually the same, just "refreshed".

P.S. If we continue all day with similar comments in this pointless topic, I will soon have to replace third brand new keyboard on my laptop... and this laptop will be even more "unoriginal" after 😁

analog_programmer wrote on 2023-09-06, 23:03:

If you change one bolt on your brand new car, is it the same car anymore? Of course it is the same car. If something isn't structurally altered and modified in terms of its function far beyond the original parameters, but only defective parts are replaced over time, then that thing remains virtually the same, just "refreshed".

P.S. If we continue all day with similar comments in this pointless topic, I will soon have to replace third brand new keyboard on my laptop... and this laptop will be even more "unoriginal" after 😁

You could keep all the philosophers in the world busy for the rest of their lives debating this question. It doesn't just apply to inanimate objects either. Your body is constantly creating new cells and old ones are dying off. Are you still the same person that you were as a kid?

Ensign Nemo wrote on 2023-09-06, 23:20:

You could keep all the philosophers in the world busy for the rest of their lives debating this question. It doesn't just apply to inanimate objects either. Your body is constantly creating new cells and old ones are dying off. Are you still the same person that you were as a kid?

To me philosophy is too far from definitions for science. And yes, for about 7 years every atom in our body is literally renewed. "You are what you eat" applies. I'm not same person as I was when I was a kid "bodily" and physically, but mentally I'm still the same person as I was at 22 - 'til death or at least 'til the dementia got me 😁

P.S. It's time to leave this topic to the dreamers and philosophers, 'cause we really write absolutely meaningless things.

So in this philosophical debate are these transistor perfect replicas? As in they spun up new FBI and TMU chips on a 3dfx assembly line. In that case , sure provided the prices weren't too crazy , I mean I use retro hardware to facilitate the playing of retro games
And having newer chips with a longer lifespan would be good. and you could consider these chips as new revisions of the old ones if they're perfect replicas.

This seems to be a chicken and egg problem though , like I get its a philosophical discussion but the reason these chips are coveted in the first place is because well nostalgia , but also because they are becoming more scarce , and the reason they are is because it would be financial suicide to open up a new fab just for retro chips.

Which is why you have alternatives like fpgas and emulators.

Kinda why this thought experiment doesn't work at least for chips.
Its catch 22. You can't buy these imaginary chips if no one will make them.

Easy question for me to answer, given that I bought an Orpheus and am 100% satisfied. I'd buy a newly manufactured version and I'd pay for the peace of mind that it isn't worn out or about to wear out.

New is new and old is old. I still do not have any Goteks or CF devices in any of my vintage gear, I do have some but they are not in any XT, 286, 386, etc. That is blasphemy to true vintage gear IMHO
🤣 so no to all those questions but #2
added: my family has some vintage cars/trucks. You mod anything to new and you screwed with the vintage value.

Assuming the hardware was totally identical, I would buy new hardware. But it would have to be literally identical, right down to the same traces on the PCB, same colors, the works.

Having said that, if anyone was selling new CRTs of any type, shape, or sort, I would spend money like it was going out of style, even if it was nothing like any old CRT. CRTs would be my #1 priority/desire for new hardware manufacture.

I'm not good with electronics, so I don't mind buying replicas or even new products that didn't exist back in the day. I prefer CRTs to LCDs for DOS gaming, so I have picked up a couple of old monitors. I'm the complete opposite when it comes to storage. I'll take flash storage any day over an old HDD. I'm not a purist when it comes to sound either. I plan on putting together a MUNT setup on a Raspberry Pi for MT-32 music. I can't tell the difference in the comparisons I've listened to, and it is really convenient for midi music in general. Money comes into play as well. I'd probably pick up an MT-32 for the right price because it looks cool. On the other hand, I don't have to look at my sound card, so I'd be perfectly happy with an ISA replica. For game controllers, I wouldn't even be interested in a replica, as I never used an old gameport one that I liked. The old Gravis gamepads don't come close to want the console gamers had at the time.

Despite not being a purist, I think using real hardware still matters, be it vintage or a replica. I bet that I often wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an actual DOS machine and DOSBOX if you hooked them both up to a CRT and didn't tell me which one I was playing. Even if that's the case, going purely emulation would lose some of the magic to me.

Ensign Nemo wrote on 2023-09-07, 02:33:

I'm not good with electronics, so I don't mind buying replicas or even new products that didn't exist back in the day. I prefer CRTs to LCDs for DOS gaming, so I have picked up a couple of old monitors. I'm the complete opposite when it comes to storage. I'll take flash storage any day over an old HDD. I'm not a purist when it comes to sound either. I plan on putting together a MUNT setup on a Raspberry Pi for MT-32 music. I can't tell the difference in the comparisons I've listened to, and it is really convenient for midi music in general. Money comes into play as well. I'd probably pick up an MT-32 for the right price because it looks cool. On the other hand, I don't have to look at my sound card, so I'd be perfectly happy with an ISA replica. For game controllers, I wouldn't even be interested in a replica, as I never used an old gameport one that I liked. The old Gravis gamepads don't come close to want the console gamers had at the time.

Despite not being a purist, I think using real hardware still matters, be it vintage or a replica. I bet that I often wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an actual DOS machine and DOSBOX if you hooked them both up to a CRT and didn't tell me which one I was playing. Even if that's the case, going purely emulation would lose some of the magic to me.

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