ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-23, 22:05:

From a P4 1.4GHz at the one end to a dual Xeon E5-2690v2 at the other.

Not sure why you'd pick the 1.4GHz P4 as the starting point - you could certainly, back in the day, run XP on less. Had XP (and later server 2003 R2) on a PIII 700 with 768 megs of RAM and it was... fine for the time. I remember right when XP came out there was a big panic about how you would need 800+MHz and blah blah blah, but nah. What XP (and 2000, and Vista, and 7, and every NT-based OS I've ever used) really needs is RAM, not MHz.

Now, for retro use, would I recommend that? Of course not... but who would recommend a P4 1.4GHz either? And the PIII at least has some possibilities in terms of multi-booting, ISA, etc. outside the XP world.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-23, 22:05:

Snap up those XP PCs now because in 10-20 years time the future Vogons wont be talking about Windows 7 gaming systems, Vista to Windows 11 will go the way of Windows 3.11. Its there in the past but nobody really uses it and nobody considers it for gaming purposes at all.

Yup... there's not enough cool software left behind in the middle of the Vista->11 era, so why bother wanting a 7 or so vintage system? And this is the time when game distribution started to move to things like Steam, which provide better compatibility with modern systems...

That being said, not for gaming purposes but more generally, I still have a soft spot for Windows 7. Probably the best version of Windows ever from an interface design/consistency, etc perspective. 10/11 are... not bad... but they're still trying to undo the epic 8 disaster UI-wise.

Hard to say that far out. If x86 disappears (don't laugh) or newer video hardware drops support for features used by games or or a newer version of D3D or vulkan or whatever renderer that replaces those doesn't support older D3D or vulkan games then there would still be a need by those who care since the alternatives at that time may not be ideal.....just like today except worse.

As far as the actual games though since most people don't bother to crack their already owned games then they will either repurchase them so they can play them again (for those stores that bother to release a newer version without the DRM or a newer DRM or likely re-release via streaming only) or they'll download a cracked version via torrent. It's difficult to find things on torrents from 20yrs ago and the size requirement to host something like TOSEC or Exo for modern games would be crazy but as long as you can pick what you want from the torrent like today then you should be good assuming someone else is seeding it....

This is all assuming that you would even be able to run non-approved code on "your" computer in 2043. Likely if it isn't from a walled garden or streamed or AR/VR you'll be tarred and feathered by the community and by the government for "thinking different".

VivienM wrote on 2023-10-23, 21:51:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-10-23, 05:45:

I would also recommend dual-booting with Win7, because some later titles like BioShock and Crysis have additional visual effects when running in DirectX 10 mode.

But... at that point, would those titles play fine on a modern machine running 10/11?

Mostly yes, but some games from 2007 like BioShock and Mass Effect still used EAX5, which (to my ears) sounds nicer on real hardware.

Granted, I haven't tinkered with EAX wrappers in a while, so maybe the situation has improved a bit there. But I'll always choose real hardware when possible.

VivienM wrote on 2023-10-23, 22:13:

Not sure why you'd pick the 1.4GHz P4 as the starting point - you could certainly, back in the day, run XP on less. Had XP (and […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-23, 22:05:

From a P4 1.4GHz at the one end to a dual Xeon E5-2690v2 at the other.

Not sure why you'd pick the 1.4GHz P4 as the starting point - you could certainly, back in the day, run XP on less. Had XP (and later server 2003 R2) on a PIII 700 with 768 megs of RAM and it was... fine for the time. I remember right when XP came out there was a big panic about how you would need 800+MHz and blah blah blah, but nah. What XP (and 2000, and Vista, and 7, and every NT-based OS I've ever used) really needs is RAM, not MHz.

Now, for retro use, would I recommend that? Of course not... but who would recommend a P4 1.4GHz either? And the PIII at least has some possibilities in terms of multi-booting, ISA, etc. outside the XP world.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-23, 22:05:

Snap up those XP PCs now because in 10-20 years time the future Vogons wont be talking about Windows 7 gaming systems, Vista to Windows 11 will go the way of Windows 3.11. Its there in the past but nobody really uses it and nobody considers it for gaming purposes at all.

Yup... there's not enough cool software left behind in the middle of the Vista->11 era, so why bother wanting a 7 or so vintage system? And this is the time when game distribution started to move to things like Steam, which provide better compatibility with modern systems...

That being said, not for gaming purposes but more generally, I still have a soft spot for Windows 7. Probably the best version of Windows ever from an interface design/consistency, etc perspective. 10/11 are... not bad... but they're still trying to undo the epic 8 disaster UI-wise.

Yeah you could run XP on an i386 and if you ran it as a core OS it would even run on a 8088 if you really tried!

A P4 1.4 was the starting point for no particular reason other than reason.
I mean nobody really considers a P3 an XP OS, not even on here.

Steam is something of a joke. Everybody has raced to get their games collection online all nice and neat and ready to recover should you ever need to.
Then they go and drop support for old OSs like XP. So as soon as you mention retro to a steam account holder in 20 years time those old games wont be accessable, because its only a matter of time before they drop support for Windows Vista, 7, 8 and even 10.

XP will be the last gamers OS.
I went into a local retro games store and asked the guys there if they have any old PC games. They told me they dont bother because people get their games off steam. And this is a shop that sells stuff like the Super Nintendo and Mega drive.

So gather ye old systems while ye may

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-23, 23:19:

A P4 1.4 was the starting point for no particular reason other than reason.
I mean nobody really considers a P3 an XP OS, not even on here.

What?!

A P4 1.4 is slower than some PIIIs. It's ridiculous to say a 1.4P4 is a WinXP class CPU and a fast PIII isn't. Many people had PIIIs when XP came out.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-23, 23:19:

I went into a local retro games store and asked the guys there if they have any old PC games. They told me they dont bother because people get their games off steam. And this is a shop that sells stuff like the Super Nintendo and Mega drive.

I've noticed here too that video game shops won't deal in old PC games.

The upside of this is these old PC games still end up in thrift shops for super cheap prices. I've been recently finding bunches of early 2000's games for a few bucks a pop at local thrift stores.

Meanwhile I'm selling my old PS2 games from the same era for upwards of hundreds of dollars. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you are starting from scratch, just grab a Z77 or X79 motherboard, these are the last platforms that have full official trouble free drivers for XP.

You can get newer stuff working with lots of hackery but these are the staples of just double clicking driver installers and having it ready to go before you finish your cup of coffee.

Price is rock bottom right now, now is the time to buy one of these, theyre just starting to really chug in modern games and lots of people upgrading from these platforms, probably find one of these on FB market if you're patient for under £10 or even free if patient enough.

Slap in 16 or 32GB ram if you're planning on potential dual boot, why not? DDR3 is cheap as chips and again it's almost given away on the market, XP has no problem with just ignoring anything over 3ish GB

GTX960 is the last GPU that just works without driver modding, efficient, quiet card, most recommended.

If you want MOAR, go for 980ti or TITAN X Maxwell, these can be made to work by simply editing the ini file in the driver within notepad.

SSD will work and increase speed, I personally like the noise of a HDD in my XP machines.

Sound card, choose something with EAX if that's something you're into, its worth it imo for how cheap these have gotten.

Drivers aren't what they were in the 9x days so I'd be suprised if you ran into any XP era games that won't run on such a system.

I'll say it again, prices are so low at the moment for all the parts that can max out XP, why compromise? Go all the way!

tunertom wrote on 2023-10-24, 00:00:

GTX960 is the last GPU that just works without driver modding, efficient, quiet card, most recommended.

I've recently learned that there are official (unmodified) Nvidia drivers which do support GTX 970 and 980 cards under WinXP. More details in this thread on MSFN.

I can confirm that these work fine, as I'm currently using them with my GTX 970.

kingcake wrote on 2023-10-23, 23:29:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-23, 23:19:

A P4 1.4 was the starting point for no particular reason other than reason.
I mean nobody really considers a P3 an XP OS, not even on here.

What?!

A P4 1.4 is slower than some PIIIs. It's ridiculous to say a 1.4P4 is a WinXP class CPU and a fast PIII isn't. Many people had PIIIs when XP came out.

I didnt, you read what you wanted to read and answered that

.
It was just a starting point. If you really want to dig down you can. I mean I have a Dell GX150 that has Windows XP support and that has a Pentium 3 1GHz CPU in it.
Then in a post above I said you can if you really want to get XP to run on a 486.

Im not really sure what your point is here. I mean the thread title is printed at the top of the page and sort of says it all really...
Would you recommend somebody sets up a Windows XP system with a P3?
The P4 1.4 came out just before XP did, and those P4 systems were sold with XP on them. But I wouldnt recommend a single one of them.

I cant disagree that many people had a pentium 3 when XP came out, and indeed they still had them years later too and run XP on them. I know because I was one of them. I had it on 2 of my PCs, One based on an Acorp 6A815EPD and the other on a P3TDE6.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-10-23, 23:35:

I've noticed here too that video game shops won't deal in old PC games. […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-23, 23:19:

I went into a local retro games store and asked the guys there if they have any old PC games. They told me they dont bother because people get their games off steam. And this is a shop that sells stuff like the Super Nintendo and Mega drive.

I've noticed here too that video game shops won't deal in old PC games.

The upside of this is these old PC games still end up in thrift shops for super cheap prices. I've been recently finding bunches of early 2000's games for a few bucks a pop at local thrift stores.

Meanwhile I'm selling my old PS2 games from the same era for upwards of hundreds of dollars. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah I know, I have found that too.
Some of the games I have Ive seen listed on ebay for several hundred pounds each...
Original release big box versions of Resident Evil go for really evil prices... Which is nice as I own all of them 😀 Nice little nest egg waiting for me there, together with my PS1/2 games.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-23, 22:05:

Snap up those XP PCs now because in 10-20 years time the future Vogons wont be talking about Windows 7 gaming systems, Vista to Windows 11 will go the way of Windows 3.11. Its there in the past but nobody really uses it and nobody considers it for gaming purposes at all.

I disagree. Windows 7 is the last one that will become retro. That's the end of the era of offline games, supports more modern hardware and software features and more RAM without messing with PAE.

RandomStranger wrote on 2023-10-24, 06:22:

I disagree. Windows 7 is the last one that will become retro. That's the end of the era of offline games, supports more modern hardware and software features and more RAM without messing with PAE.

i agree with that, windows 7 covers (ie runs happily on) anything from Vista to 2020 and represents the last offline era

i know people are keen on stretching XP into almost the modern era but even if compatible i would prefer W7 on anything that runs it ok while XP i think is better suited to the 32bit era in my view, plus maybe a bit into the early 64 bit era

RandomStranger wrote on 2023-10-24, 06:22:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-23, 22:05:

Snap up those XP PCs now because in 10-20 years time the future Vogons wont be talking about Windows 7 gaming systems, Vista to Windows 11 will go the way of Windows 3.11. Its there in the past but nobody really uses it and nobody considers it for gaming purposes at all.

I disagree. Windows 7 is the last one that will become retro. That's the end of the era of offline games, supports more modern hardware and software features and more RAM without messing with PAE.

Yeah I thought that too, but a lot of games just werent updated to run on Windows 7.

You can always tell somebody who didnt live with the older systems as they grew up when they talk about ever growing amounts of RAM and think 4Gb in XP is a problem 😀

"a lot of games" is relative, most people only care about the games they care about which is very few games.

By "updated" to run on Windows 7 what do you mean:

Are you talking games with minor issues?
Are you talking about games with major issues?
Games that just don't work at all?
Games that were never officially patched to work?
Games that were never unofficially patched to work?
Games that require emulation, ports, wrappers, etc?

You can dual-boot XP and 7 on the same hardware (and if not there are unofficial patches) and if you go the hypervisor route then ESX or Linux w/KVM on the latest x86 hardware can currently boot them all with passthru to your cards with no patching required.

DosFreak wrote on 2023-10-24, 14:30:

"a lot of games" is relative, most people only care about the games they care about which is very few games. […]
Show full quote

"a lot of games" is relative, most people only care about the games they care about which is very few games.

By "updated" to run on Windows 7 what do you mean:

Are you talking games with minor issues?
Are you talking about games with major issues?
Games that just don't work at all?
Games that were never officially patched to work?
Games that were never unofficially patched to work?
Games that require emulation, ports, wrappers, etc?

You can dual-boot XP and 7 on the same hardware (and if not there are unofficial patches) and if you go the hypervisor route then ESX or Linux w/KVM on the latest x86 hardware can currently can boot them all with passthru to your cards with no patching required.

Yes it is relative.

You know I wasnt really thinking in such detailed terms, I was thinking more generally than that.
That you can buy an old game CD off ebay put it in the CD drive of your PC and have it work.
I already know a lot of those old games wont work in Windows 7, struggle to work in XP and yet sit just right in 98.

As it turns out most games for the Windows 7 era of computing are on steam.
Which is hardly surprising really, steam did become a thing for XP and it carried over well to Windows 7 and people were happy with that because it always nice to install steam and have all your games when ever you want them

Then steam stopped supporting Windows XP.
And it wasnt until then that you realised that all those games you might want to play again will have to be supported on the later OSs.
Some of my first steam games are now over 20 years old. And the only reason I can still play them is I have the CD.
Well I do have an old version of steam I can install to any XP PC but not everybody has that.

Windows 7 might well have its place in the retro games arena, but it wont replace XP because its already not capable of doing it which is why it is what it is and that gulf between them will only get bigger over time because less and less will want to carry over the support from the one to the other.

Oh and if Windows 7 will be all things to all gamers in the future why would you need to dual boot with XP at all. XP would be dead, killed off by Windows 7.

Out of interest are there many games out there that require Windows 7 to play because they wont play on Windows 10 or 11?

My XP machine still has access to steam, and for now it can play those games on there without problems, but thats not to say that will be so in 10 years time, maybe it will require more powerful hardware that XP just doesnt have access to.
But for now XP can play many of the late 98 era games all the way up to just a couple of years ago.
a 20 year long catalogue of games is more than enough to keep something relevant. Windows 7 will have to come up with something other than being able to dual boot with XP to stay as relevant as that.

Windows 7 as an OS is quite nice, it was what Vista should have been is the oft spoken phrase and it is, but to me looking at it it sits in a middle ground and Im not sure about it. And Im still somebody who uses it on at least 2 machines on a daily basis.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-24, 15:08:

Oh and if Windows 7 will be all things to all gamers in the future why would you need to dual boot with XP at all. XP would be dead, killed off by Windows 7.

that's interesting because i realise that i hardly use XP for games at all now - and thats largely thanks to Dosbox, gog and varying patches plus the fairly good compatibility of W7 itself

it's worth having an XP machine, and indeed a 9x one, for some older games - hence i tend to think of specs for those as being 32bit era stuf

gerry wrote on 2023-10-24, 15:40:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-24, 15:08:

Oh and if Windows 7 will be all things to all gamers in the future why would you need to dual boot with XP at all. XP would be dead, killed off by Windows 7.

that's interesting because i realise that i hardly use XP for games at all now - and thats largely thanks to Dosbox, gog and varying patches plus the fairly good compatibility of W7 itself

it's worth having an XP machine, and indeed a 9x one, for some older games - hence i tend to think of specs for those as being 32bit era stuf

Where as I do a lot.
I dug out some of my old games and tried to run then on a Windows 7 PC and they wouldnt which is what got me to resurrect Windows XP.
For virtualisation you should be on the VMWare forums should you?
I mean this site is about having the old hardware and doing it for real right?
If youre going to do it that way then you can just run a VM in Proxmox pass through the hardware from a Tesla and call it a Windows 7 gaming PC right?

And theres nothing wrong with that at all, its just not what Im about. I like the hardware.
Like my music comes on vinyl, reels and discs not a button on a phone.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-24, 14:03:

Yeah I thought that too, but a lot of games just werent updated to run on Windows 7.

You can always tell somebody who didnt live with the older systems as they grew up when they talk about ever growing amounts of RAM and think 4Gb in XP is a problem 😀

A lot of games past 2007 released with DX10 support and past 2009 with DX10.1 support. For some, that's "who gives a shit?" for others it can be as important as EAX.
Also, past 2012, for the games that can still run offline, 4GB RAM can be limiting.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-24, 15:08:

Then steam stopped supporting Windows XP.
And it wasnt until then that you realised that all those games you might want to play again will have to be supported on the later OSs.
Some of my first steam games are now over 20 years old. And the only reason I can still play them is I have the CD.

I remember that moment. It was also the moment I stopped purchasing games on Steam and only use GOG because of their offline installers.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-23, 23:19:

Yeah you could run XP on an i386 and if you ran it as a core OS it would even run on a 8088 if you really tried! […]
Show full quote

VivienM wrote on 2023-10-23, 22:13:

Not sure why you'd pick the 1.4GHz P4 as the starting point - you could certainly, back in the day, run XP on less. Had XP (and […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-23, 22:05:

From a P4 1.4GHz at the one end to a dual Xeon E5-2690v2 at the other.

Not sure why you'd pick the 1.4GHz P4 as the starting point - you could certainly, back in the day, run XP on less. Had XP (and later server 2003 R2) on a PIII 700 with 768 megs of RAM and it was... fine for the time. I remember right when XP came out there was a big panic about how you would need 800+MHz and blah blah blah, but nah. What XP (and 2000, and Vista, and 7, and every NT-based OS I've ever used) really needs is RAM, not MHz.

Now, for retro use, would I recommend that? Of course not... but who would recommend a P4 1.4GHz either? And the PIII at least has some possibilities in terms of multi-booting, ISA, etc. outside the XP world.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-23, 22:05:

Snap up those XP PCs now because in 10-20 years time the future Vogons wont be talking about Windows 7 gaming systems, Vista to Windows 11 will go the way of Windows 3.11. Its there in the past but nobody really uses it and nobody considers it for gaming purposes at all.

Yup... there's not enough cool software left behind in the middle of the Vista->11 era, so why bother wanting a 7 or so vintage system? And this is the time when game distribution started to move to things like Steam, which provide better compatibility with modern systems...

That being said, not for gaming purposes but more generally, I still have a soft spot for Windows 7. Probably the best version of Windows ever from an interface design/consistency, etc perspective. 10/11 are... not bad... but they're still trying to undo the epic 8 disaster UI-wise.

Yeah you could run XP on an i386 and if you ran it as a core OS it would even run on a 8088 if you really tried!

A P4 1.4 was the starting point for no particular reason other than reason.
I mean nobody really considers a P3 an XP OS, not even on here.

Steam is something of a joke. Everybody has raced to get their games collection online all nice and neat and ready to recover should you ever need to.
Then they go and drop support for old OSs like XP. So as soon as you mention retro to a steam account holder in 20 years time those old games wont be accessable, because its only a matter of time before they drop support for Windows Vista, 7, 8 and even 10.

XP will be the last gamers OS.
I went into a local retro games store and asked the guys there if they have any old PC games. They told me they dont bother because people get their games off steam. And this is a shop that sells stuff like the Super Nintendo and Mega drive.

So gather ye old systems while ye may

This!!! Start putting aside games and old software because they will disappear or modified to such an extent that it will become unrecognizable/incompatible. How many people still have the original release of Half life 2? And here we are on a retro focused community!

vetz wrote on 2023-10-25, 06:06:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-24, 15:08:

Then steam stopped supporting Windows XP.
And it wasnt until then that you realised that all those games you might want to play again will have to be supported on the later OSs.
Some of my first steam games are now over 20 years old. And the only reason I can still play them is I have the CD.

I remember that moment. It was also the moment I stopped purchasing games on Steam and only use GOG because of their offline installers.

Yeah, but at the same time, I already run all my games intended for modern platforms on a not directly supported OS and Steam is the only one that offers built-in compatibility (Proton) for that. That's why I'm motivated to continue support them. But then again, you have to accept, that they target reasonably up-to-date platforms. Steam is not and never was for authentic retro gaming. Neither is GoG for that matter, they often update their games and often with community patches to make them work on modern platforms to sometimes the detriment of them working on retro platforms. It's just that with GoG their off-line installer option makes transferring games to retro platforms easier.

For retro platforms discs and piracy are kings.