So yeah, like the others were saying, the high bytes aren't getting terminated.

Looks like I'll just get a wide SCSI controller with the right connector. They're not really much pricier than those sorts of adapters seem to be. Looks like I already have the cables and terminator from some server towers I got in this same haul (those have boards with onboard SCSI).

Thanks for the help with narrowing things down everyone, cheers.

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-06, 18:49:

ElectroSoldier, what you're saying doesn't seem applicable to my caddy and dock, at least. I don't see "three parts", I only see a single dial I can change, on the actual caddy that holds the hard drive itself. And there are no accommodations to connect this dial to the jumpers on the bottom of the drive; it doesn't look like that's how it was designed in any way. The jumpers on the bottom of the drive are likely just a backup so it can be used outside of a caddy or something.

Also, I tried setting the SCSI ID of this drive/caddy to 1, but now it has the same issue, only as "LUN:1-0" this time. Hmm.

Ok, I have 2 of same docks you have but 2 different caddies - one has wide cable, one .
May I you post a picture of the caddy (without hard disk) please?

My docks seem to be the same, but their behaviour is different on my 2 caddies - as far as differential is concerned.

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-06, 20:05:

So yeah, like the others were saying, the high bytes aren't getting terminated.

Looks like I'll just get a wide SCSI controller with the right connector. They're not really much pricier than those sorts of adapters seem to be. Looks like I already have the cables and terminator from some server towers I got in this same haul (those have boards with onboard SCSI).

Thanks for the help with narrowing things down everyone, cheers.

Try Adaptec 2940U2W. It has triple LVD-68, SE-68 and SE-50 connectors. And a bridge chip.

He doesnt need that.
The problem is the caddy.
Its a SCSI SCA backplane and he is trying to run it over a 50 pin SCSI bus that only has a passive terminator on it.
Or
The problem is the controller card cant control an SCA backplane.

Wild thing that might be tried.
The BIOS has an option to send start unit command, looking at the manual that is set to off by default, turn it on and see what happens.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-06, 18:31:

SCA is designed to get its ID from the controller. You dont have to set anything on the drive if youre using it properly, as designed.

This sounds like you are confusing SCA (single connector attachment) with SCAM (SCSI configured AutoMagically).

• SCA uses an 80-pin connector, which has 4 contacts used to configure a "hard" SCSI ID in the range 0..15. The "hard" SCSI ID configured via the SCA connection is used the same way as the jumpered SCSI ID is used on drives without an SCA connector. The purpose of SCA is to make drive replacement easier in systems designed for easily swappable drives. As the hard ID is configured using contacts on the SCA connectors, a replacement drive is automatically set to the same hard SCSI ID as the had that was replaced. Furthermore, there is no longer a separate power connector, and the drive replacement procedure is reduced to "unlock old drive", "pull old drive", "push in new drive" and "lock new drive".
• SCAM is a protocol that can assign a "soft" SCSI ID to any SCAM-compliant SCSI device on the SCSI bus, which will be used instead of the "hard" SCSI ID. This protocol works with any kind of connector, even with 50-pin narrow single-ended drives. The purpose of SCAM is to make SCSI configuration easier without requiring any kind of physical changes to the present SCSI system.

As SCAM can be implemented in any physical configuration of the parallel SCSI bus, SCAM can be used in systems with SCA drive connectors, but this is completely optional. If SCAM is used in an SCA system, the IDs set via SCA indeed don't matter, but you can't assume all SCA systems are using SCAM. I would expect the opposite: SCA really shines for hot plug bays in storage-server devices (including SANs), and these kind of systems want a fixed relation between a physical slot and an SCSI ID, because this allows the management software to display what physical slot contains the broken drive. If all drives were configured to the same hard ID and the soft IDs to be used were assigned using SCAM, the management software would have no idea what drive is in what physical slot.

mkarcher wrote on 2023-11-06, 20:39:

This sounds like you are confusing SCA (single connector attachment) with SCAM (SCSI configured AutoMagically). […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-06, 18:31:

SCA is designed to get its ID from the controller. You dont have to set anything on the drive if youre using it properly, as designed.

This sounds like you are confusing SCA (single connector attachment) with SCAM (SCSI configured AutoMagically).

• SCA uses an 80-pin connector, which has 4 contacts used to configure a "hard" SCSI ID in the range 0..15. The "hard" SCSI ID configured via the SCA connection is used the same way as the jumpered SCSI ID is used on drives without an SCA connector. The purpose of SCA is to make drive replacement easier in systems designed for easily swappable drives. As the hard ID is configured using contacts on the SCA connectors, a replacement drive is automatically set to the same hard SCSI ID as the had that was replaced. Furthermore, there is no longer a separate power connector, and the drive replacement procedure is reduced to "unlock old drive", "pull old drive", "push in new drive" and "lock new drive".
• SCAM is a protocol that can assign a "soft" SCSI ID to any SCAM-compliant SCSI device on the SCSI bus, which will be used instead of the "hard" SCSI ID. This protocol works with any kind of connector, even with 50-pin narrow single-ended drives. The purpose of SCAM is to make SCSI configuration easier without requiring any kind of physical changes to the present SCSI system.

As SCAM can be implemented in any physical configuration of the parallel SCSI bus, SCAM can be used in systems with SCA drive connectors, but this is completely optional. If SCAM is used in an SCA system, the IDs set via SCA indeed don't matter, but you can't assume all SCA systems are using SCAM. I would expect the opposite: SCA really shines for hot plug bays in storage-server devices (including SANs), and these kind of systems want a fixed relation between a physical slot and an SCSI ID, because this allows the management software to display what physical slot contains the broken drive. If all drives were configured to the same hard ID and the soft IDs to be used were assigned using SCAM, the management software would have no idea what drive is in what physical slot.

No im not confusing anything but the way Im explainging it might well be confusing for some who dont know.

I have an SCA backplane, its a multiple drive box whos drives go into caddies.
The drives themselves are SCA.
The rear of the backplane has 2 68 pin connectors, one goes to the controller card, the other to another SCSI device or terminator.
There are 3 molex connectors for drive power
There are 5 dip switches for SCSI ID selection of each device.

Those dip switches are connected to the 80pin SCA connectors. That is where the disk gets its ID... Over the SCA connector (over the SCSI bus).
It doesnt get its ID from the controller card, that was a mistake. I did say a few posts ago how a backplane assigns its IDs to devices. The adapter I linked to in my first reply is a single disk SCA backplane. It looks a bit rough n ready but it is the same.

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-06, 20:05:

So yeah, like the others were saying, the high bytes aren't getting terminated.

Looks like I'll just get a wide SCSI controller with the right connector. They're not really much pricier than those sorts of adapters seem to be. Looks like I already have the cables and terminator from some server towers I got in this same haul (those have boards with onboard SCSI).

Thanks for the help with narrowing things down everyone, cheers.

Not really no.
There are no high bits to terminate, its a 50 pin Ultra SCSI bus. Its not LVD.

Disruptor wrote on 2023-11-06, 20:05:

Ok, I have 2 of same docks you have but 2 different caddies - one has wide cable, one .
May I you post a picture of the caddy (without hard disk) please?

My docks seem to be the same, but their behaviour is different on my 2 caddies - as far as differential is concerned.

I actually have two kinds of SCSI bays; the other kind has no back on the caddy, and just slots the SCA connector of the hard drive directly into a connector on the dock.

But here's a photo of the kind I'm using here, with no hard drive.

They all have this SCA connector for the hard drive and the 68-pin "wide" connector on the rear, however.

Disruptor wrote on 2023-11-06, 20:06:

Try Adaptec 2940U2W. It has triple LVD-68, SE-68 and SE-50 connectors. And a bridge chip.

That particular Adaptec card looks pretty pricy for my expectations and needs. All I'd like is a 68-pin one that would work to get me connected and reading these drives really.

Yeah the Adaptec 2940U2W and other 2940 cards have strayed or are starting the stray into the retro catagory and so carry a "retro tech" price tag.

Take a look for an Adaptec 29160 or 39160 ... Anything SCSI 160 infact as thats not cool enough to be retro yet.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zRFF4X1IxdQ?feature=share Adaptec ASC-29160
Thats a controller you need for £11.99
The ASC-39160 just adds another controller and put the 50 pin connector in a better place for actual use inside the PC case.

And yes I know it will work because I run a SCSI-2 Pioneer 6 disc CD changer off of a ASC-29160LP

On the controller card you have, it the option to Send START UNIT command option set to ON?

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-06, 21:05:

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-06, 20:05:

So yeah, like the others were saying, the high bytes aren't getting terminated.

Looks like I'll just get a wide SCSI controller with the right connector. They're not really much pricier than those sorts of adapters seem to be. Looks like I already have the cables and terminator from some server towers I got in this same haul (those have boards with onboard SCSI).

Thanks for the help with narrowing things down everyone, cheers.

Not really no.
There are no high bits to terminate, its a 50 pin Ultra SCSI bus. Its not LVD.

You're wrong.
The Drive is Wide, the controller is narrow, the cable is narrow, the termination is narrow.
The high byte on the drive isn't terminated.

and depending on the firmware of the drive it might never work as intended due to trying to operate the wide drive on a narrow bus.

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-06, 21:18:

Disruptor wrote on 2023-11-06, 20:05:

Try Adaptec 2940U2W. It has triple LVD-68, SE-68 and SE-50 connectors. And a bridge chip.

That particular Adaptec card looks pretty pricy for my expectations and needs. All I'd like is a 68-pin one that would work to get me connected and reading these drives really.

I've seen it for EUR 20-30 on eBay.

On boot it will print a message on SCSI termination faults.
I think it's not much for a SCSI card that pretty can do everything (but RAID), considering you're new to SCSI.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-06, 21:32:

Take a look for an Adaptec 29160 or 39160

But they use 64 bit PCI connectors (however they may be operated in 32 bit PCI sockets too).

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-06, 21:32:

And yes I know it will work because I run a SCSI-2 Pioneer 6 disc CD changer off of a ASC-29160LP

One of my UltraPlex 40 uses a wide connector. I guess your changer is narrow. Are there any other CD drives that use a wide connector?

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-06, 21:32:

On the controller card you have, it the option to Send START UNIT command option set to ON?

Good Idea. teh_Foxx0rz, do you hear spinning sound from your hard disk?

weedeewee wrote on 2023-11-07, 01:55:

You're wrong. The Drive is Wide, the controller is narrow, the cable is narrow, the termination is narrow. The high byte on the […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-06, 21:05:

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-06, 20:05:

So yeah, like the others were saying, the high bytes aren't getting terminated.

Looks like I'll just get a wide SCSI controller with the right connector. They're not really much pricier than those sorts of adapters seem to be. Looks like I already have the cables and terminator from some server towers I got in this same haul (those have boards with onboard SCSI).

Thanks for the help with narrowing things down everyone, cheers.

Not really no.
There are no high bits to terminate, its a 50 pin Ultra SCSI bus. Its not LVD.

You're wrong.
The Drive is Wide, the controller is narrow, the cable is narrow, the termination is narrow.
The high byte on the drive isn't terminated.

and depending on the firmware of the drive it might never work as intended due to trying to operate the wide drive on a narrow bus.

What exactly do you mean by "high byte"?

The drive is what it is. Its a very popular model, you have a photo of the data plate... It can operate as an SE device. But is is Ultra3 (Ultra160)

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 03:19:

What exactly do you mean by "high byte"?

The drive is what it is. Its a very popular model, you have a photo of the data plate... It can operate as an SE device. But is is Ultra3 (Ultra160)

If you have a narrow and a wide cable on the same bus, you need to terminate the high byte (upper 8 bits) on your bus right where it changes from 16 to 8 bit width. If your controller is in the middle of the bus, it is most likely that the controller will have to terminate high byte then.
If you connect a wide device to a narrow bus (or narrow part of your bus) you don't need to care about high byte termination, because those devices work even with high bits floating. It just will matter when the device is part of a wide negotiation. At least with all drives I know...

Ha, I know what I will test next.
Two 2940U2W's in different computers, connected through a narrow cable, having wide devices on both controllers. That will be fun. Targets that will need wide and narrow negotiation at the same time 😀

Disruptor wrote on 2023-11-07, 02:13:

I've seen it for EUR 20-30 on eBay. […]
Show full quote

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-06, 21:18:

Disruptor wrote on 2023-11-06, 20:05:

Try Adaptec 2940U2W. It has triple LVD-68, SE-68 and SE-50 connectors. And a bridge chip.

That particular Adaptec card looks pretty pricy for my expectations and needs. All I'd like is a 68-pin one that would work to get me connected and reading these drives really.

I've seen it for EUR 20-30 on eBay.

On boot it will print a message on SCSI termination faults.
I think it's not much for a SCSI card that pretty can do everything (but RAID), considering you're new to SCSI.

It depends on how much youre into SCSI...
I dont think its a bad price, but it depends how much he can get one for...

Disruptor wrote on 2023-11-07, 02:19:

But they use 64 bit PCI connectors (however they may be operated in 32 bit PCI sockets too). […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-06, 21:32:

Take a look for an Adaptec 29160 or 39160

But they use 64 bit PCI connectors (however they may be operated in 32 bit PCI sockets too).

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-06, 21:32:

And yes I know it will work because I run a SCSI-2 Pioneer 6 disc CD changer off of a ASC-29160LP

One of my UltraPlex 40 uses a wide connector. I guess your changer is narrow. Are there any other CD drives that use a wide connector?

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-06, 21:32:

On the controller card you have, it the option to Send START UNIT command option set to ON?

Good Idea. teh_Foxx0rz, do you hear spinning sound from your hard disk?

They are 64bit PCI but they will operate in a 32bit PCI slot without a problem, but at 32bit speeds, which wont make any difference at all. I have an ASC-29160LP in a Dell GX270 SFF which only has a 32bit PCI slot and it works fine.
The only problem you might face with it is if there is no room behind the 32bit connector for the 64bit extension portion of the edge connector... For instance if there are capacitors mounted on the PCB behind the PCI slot, or a chipset cooler, or a system speaker, which one of my boards does have, so I cant put a 64bit card in that slot.

Yes the CD Changer is SCSI-2 which is 8 bit narrow. Ive never seen a Wide CD drive of any kind... All of mine are narrow with a 50 pin connector. Ive got a Wide LVD tape drive but Iver never seen with my own eyes a 68pin LVD optical drive.

Disruptor wrote on 2023-11-07, 03:23:

If you have a narrow and a wide cable on the same bus, you need to terminate the high byte (upper 8 bits) on your bus right wher […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 03:19:

What exactly do you mean by "high byte"?

The drive is what it is. Its a very popular model, you have a photo of the data plate... It can operate as an SE device. But is is Ultra3 (Ultra160)

If you have a narrow and a wide cable on the same bus, you need to terminate the high byte (upper 8 bits) on your bus right where it changes from 16 to 8 bit width. If your controller is in the middle of the bus, it is most likely that the controller will have to terminate high byte then.
If you connect a wide device to a narrow bus (or narrow part of your bus) you don't need to care about high byte termination, because those devices work even with high bits floating. It just will matter when the device is part of a wide negotiation. At least with all drives I know...

Ha, I know what I will test next.
Two 2940U2W's in different computers, connected through a narrow cable, having wide devices on both controllers. That will be fun. Targets that will need wide and narrow negotiation at the same time 😀

Right...
Yes in that case the high bytes need terminating.
However in this instance the drive has an option to operate in SE mode, which it is and the problem is still there. So there are no high bytes on the bus that need to be terminated are there? Because its in SE mode... Its only transmitting 8 bits, not 16 so there are no high bytes.
Right?

What youre going to connect the controller cards to each other on their 50 pin connectors and have LVD devices on the LVD connector?

LVD or SE have nothing to do with wide or narrow.

Ultra Wide SCSI is SE 40MB/s
Ultra2 SCSI is LVD 40MB/s

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 04:38:

What youre going to connect the controller cards to each other on their 50 pin connectors and have LVD devices on the LVD connector?

Yes. Just to play. You need to know that 2940U2W, 19160 and 29160 have a SCSI bridge chip on it.
When I was a teenager, I omitted the copy protection of WarCraft 2 a bit by using a single CDROM drive in 2 computers at the same time - with a NCR/Symbios/LSI-Logic 810 in one computer and a 875 in the other computer; the 875's SCSI ID had been changed from 7 to 6 ofc.

weedeewee wrote on 2023-11-07, 06:01:

LVD or SE have nothing to do with wide or narrow.

Ultra Wide SCSI is SE 40MB/s
Ultra2 SCSI is LVD 40MB/s

If you know as much as you want me to think you do then you should know what Im talking about.
LVD cant be Narrow.

Disruptor wrote on 2023-11-07, 06:38:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 04:38:

What youre going to connect the controller cards to each other on their 50 pin connectors and have LVD devices on the LVD connector?

Yes. Just to play. You need to know that 2940U2W, 19160 and 29160 have a SCSI bridge chip on it.
When I was a teenager, I omitted the copy protection of WarCraft 2 a bit by using a single CDROM drive in 2 computers at the same time - with a NCR/Symbios/LSI-Logic 810 in one computer and a 875 in the other computer; the 875's SCSI ID had been changed from 7 to 6 ofc.

I did something similar with a Firewire DVD-ROM drive. Firewire cards in a Win2k and WinXP PC both connected to the firewire ports on the external caddy
Not only could both see and use the drive but they set up a 400Mbit firewire network that I later used to file share between the two PCs.

I didnt mean to do any of that, I plugged the wrong cable into the back of my Win2k PC, I thought it was a cable i had hanging down the back on the tower from a card reader I used for CF cards.

I would imagine SCSI will do something similar but without the network.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 06:49:

LVD cant be Narrow.

My experiments with NarrowSE-Bridge/Controller#6-LVD-Controller#7 have shown that you can transfer narrow over LVD. It is no problem at all.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 06:49:

I would imagine SCSI will do something similar but without the network.

There do exist drivers for Linux that can do IP networking over SCSI. However, your controllers must support target mode.