Disruptor wrote on 2023-11-07, 02:19:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-06, 21:32:

On the controller card you have, it the option to Send START UNIT command option set to ON?

Good Idea. teh_Foxx0rz, do you hear spinning sound from your hard disk?

Yeah it spins up just fine. Sounds pretty healthy.

Also, I'm looking at getting an Adaptec AHA-2940UW. Saw another thread on here which suggested that'd be good.

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-07, 11:09:

Also, I'm looking at getting an Adaptec AHA-2940UW. Saw another thread on here which suggested that'd be good.

Yes, but the 2940UW is single ended only. LVD has been introduced in the 2940U2W.

So it would work if I set the drive to Force SE? All I want to do is read and backup the drives so I don't care about anything fancy.

Disruptor wrote on 2023-11-07, 07:17:

My experiments with NarrowSE-Bridge/Controller#6-LVD-Controller#7 have shown that you can transfer narrow over LVD. It is no pro […]
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ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 06:49:

LVD cant be Narrow.

My experiments with NarrowSE-Bridge/Controller#6-LVD-Controller#7 have shown that you can transfer narrow over LVD. It is no problem at all.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 06:49:

I would imagine SCSI will do something similar but without the network.

There do exist drivers for Linux that can do IP networking over SCSI. However, your controllers must support target mode.

Well if we are into pedantry then yeah I guess so.
Meanwhile back in the real world...

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-07, 11:09:

Disruptor wrote on 2023-11-07, 02:19:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-06, 21:32:

On the controller card you have, it the option to Send START UNIT command option set to ON?

Good Idea. teh_Foxx0rz, do you hear spinning sound from your hard disk?

Yeah it spins up just fine. Sounds pretty healthy.

Also, I'm looking at getting an Adaptec AHA-2940UW. Saw another thread on here which suggested that'd be good.

It is a good solid card, but it doesnt match the drive in the photos.
If you get something like an ASC-29160 it will work. You need the card with 2x 68pin and 1x 50pin connectors on it.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225805474240?hash= … ABk9SR6zIq6L1Yg

And if the 64bit PCI card bothers you then you can look for something like this one
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175602407048?hash= … ABk9SR6zIq6L1Yg

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-07, 12:35:

So it would work if I set the drive to Force SE? All I want to do is read and backup the drives so I don't care about anything fancy.

In theory if what they are saying is correct and the problem is that the high bytes are not terminated then yes the Force SE mode jumper on the drive will stop all of your problems because that will force the drive into 8bit Narrow mode so there will be no high bytes (the bits between 8 and 16).

Which is exactly what we said to do.... And...

Disruptor wrote on 2023-11-07, 12:08:

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-07, 11:09:

Also, I'm looking at getting an Adaptec AHA-2940UW. Saw another thread on here which suggested that'd be good.

Yes, but the 2940UW is single ended only. LVD has been introduced in the 2940U2W.

Now you are starting to see the problem of all the pedantry

I tried "Force SE" on what I have and it didn't work, remember? And, I think I'm understanding enough to know that SE is not the same as "narrow", so what you're saying isn't really making sense.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 14:04:

Disruptor wrote on 2023-11-07, 07:17:

There do exist drivers for Linux that can do IP networking over SCSI. However, your controllers must support target mode.

Well if we are into pedantry then yeah I guess so.
Meanwhile back in the real world...

It is not so new. It already was discussed in RFC2143, 26 years ago.
And it has been implemented here: https://ipoverscsi.sourceforge.net

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-07, 14:38:

I tried "Force SE" on what I have and it didn't work, remember? And, I think I'm understanding enough to know that SE is not the same as "narrow", so what you're saying isn't really making sense.

Yes I know which is why Im no longer sure if that is your problem, because in theory Force SE should have worked...

The drive is SCSI-3 (SCSI U160), so if you get an ASC-29160 controller card and a 68pin LVD cable with an active terminator on it then attach that to your drive caddy it should all work.

The real problem is those cables are not cheap... In the second hand (used) market they could cost every bit as much as a controller card could, maybe more.

Youre right in that SE and Narrow isnt the same thing at all. I might confuse the two in what Im saying but in essence what Ive said is right.
I mean I have a Narrow drive running over an LVD channel.

I had a look on ebay UK and found the cheapest way might be
Either this cable
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165872657006?hash= … ABk9SR66JgKX1Yg
Or this cable
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160672859321?hash= … ABk9SR6yJgKX1Yg

With this terminator
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/235287396448?hash= … ABk9SR9KukKX1Yg

But even then thats double the cost of the £15 SCSI card.

Using those should work.

This... If you can then buy this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160672859321?hash= … ABk9SR9SukKX1Yg

Because that is 68 pin LVD with a terminator for £8
If you dont then I will because that is stupid money.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 15:21:

This... If you can then buy this […]
Show full quote

This... If you can then buy this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160672859321?hash= … ABk9SR9SukKX1Yg

Because that is 68 pin LVD with a terminator for £8
If you dont then I will because that is stupid money.

I guess it is not the one with SE/LVD detection LEDs.
That would have been very useful!
At least my LSI PCIe U320 controller can change from LVD to SE and vice versa on the fly!

Disruptor wrote on 2023-11-07, 16:34:

I guess it is not the one with SE/LVD detection LEDs. That would have been very useful! At least my LSI PCIe U320 controller can […]
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ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 15:21:

This... If you can then buy this […]
Show full quote

This... If you can then buy this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160672859321?hash= … ABk9SR9SukKX1Yg

Because that is 68 pin LVD with a terminator for £8
If you dont then I will because that is stupid money.

I guess it is not the one with SE/LVD detection LEDs.
That would have been very useful!
At least my LSI PCIe U320 controller can change from LVD to SE and vice versa on the fly!

Oh now that would be useful.
You just reminded me of something actually. Not really useful for the OP but.
I worked with a guy many years ago who had a diagnostics tool that did something like that. When you plugged it into a SCSI bus some LEDs would turn on. There was a slip of paper with the positions of the LEDs on it, you matched the picture up to the lights on the box and it told you exactly what the bus, 8 or 16, SE or LVD etc...
Very clever bit of kit in its way. It wasnt useful in our place because everything matched, but it would be useful now if he had one.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 14:08:

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-07, 12:35:

So it would work if I set the drive to Force SE? All I want to do is read and backup the drives so I don't care about anything fancy.

In theory if what they are saying is correct and the problem is that the high bytes are not terminated then yes the Force SE mode jumper on the drive will stop all of your problems because that will force the drive into 8bit Narrow mode so there will be no high bytes (the bits between 8 and 16).

Which is exactly what we said to do.... And...

Force SE does not switch the drive into 8 bit narrow mode.
You should know that if you actually know what you are talking about.

weedeewee wrote on 2023-11-07, 16:51:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 14:08:

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-07, 12:35:

So it would work if I set the drive to Force SE? All I want to do is read and backup the drives so I don't care about anything fancy.

In theory if what they are saying is correct and the problem is that the high bytes are not terminated then yes the Force SE mode jumper on the drive will stop all of your problems because that will force the drive into 8bit Narrow mode so there will be no high bytes (the bits between 8 and 16).

Which is exactly what we said to do.... And...

Force SE does not switch the drive into 8 bit narrow mode.
You should know that if you actually know what you are talking about.

No but you know exactly what I mean though.

Im not really interested in having a pissing contest kind of conversation with you about it. You can either offer up some advice to the op to help him out of im just not interested.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 16:45:

You just reminded me of something actually. Not really useful for the OP but.
I worked with a guy many years ago who had a diagnostics tool that did something like that. When you plugged it into a SCSI bus some LEDs would turn on. There was a slip of paper with the positions of the LEDs on it, you matched the picture up to the lights on the box and it told you exactly what the bus, 8 or 16, SE or LVD etc...
Very clever bit of kit in its way. It wasnt useful in our place because everything matched, but it would be useful now if he had one.

Ye, and I have been playing with a 2 TB SATA disk in the past weeks, connected with a SATA-to-PATA adapter and an ACard PATA-to-UltraWideSCSI adapter and did the SCSISelect verify of my Adaptec 19160. It was quite fast, because there is no data transfer on the verify command.
I haven't tried a bigger disk yet, but I guess it will hit the 2 TiB SCSI limit.

Disruptor wrote on 2023-11-07, 17:08:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 16:45:

You just reminded me of something actually. Not really useful for the OP but.
I worked with a guy many years ago who had a diagnostics tool that did something like that. When you plugged it into a SCSI bus some LEDs would turn on. There was a slip of paper with the positions of the LEDs on it, you matched the picture up to the lights on the box and it told you exactly what the bus, 8 or 16, SE or LVD etc...
Very clever bit of kit in its way. It wasnt useful in our place because everything matched, but it would be useful now if he had one.

Ye, and I have been playing with a 2 TB SATA disk in the past weeks, connected with a SATA-to-PATA adapter and an ACard PATA-to-UltraWideSCSI adapter and did the SCSISelect verify of my Adaptec 19160. It was quite fast, because there is no data transfer on the verify command.
I haven't tried a bigger disk yet, but I guess it will hit the 2 TiB SCSI limit.

I was toying with the idea of getting on of those adapters. I would like to know if it works with optical drives . The one I was looking at was 7722 v3 which i think was SCSI-3 U160.
I started looking when I was re setting up an old server I have running NT4. I wanted it on an all SCSI sub system, so only SCSI drives, but in the end I went with the real thing and didnt buy the adapter.

What U160 controller card have you got? Some of them support Ultra160/m and Ultra320/m but dont tell you.

Just a bunch of 2940U2W's, one 19160, one LSI U320 PCIe1x4
The 19160 is easy to be installed in Win10, with the LSI (PCI\VEN_1000&DEV_0030&SUBSYS_50C01000&REV_C1) it is a bit tricky to find the matching driver.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 17:07:

weedeewee wrote on 2023-11-07, 16:51:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 14:08:

In theory if what they are saying is correct and the problem is that the high bytes are not terminated then yes the Force SE mode jumper on the drive will stop all of your problems because that will force the drive into 8bit Narrow mode so there will be no high bytes (the bits between 8 and 16).

Which is exactly what we said to do.... And...

Force SE does not switch the drive into 8 bit narrow mode.
You should know that if you actually know what you are talking about.

No but you know exactly what I mean though.

Im not really interested in having a pissing contest kind of conversation with you about it. You can either offer up some advice to the op to help him out of im just not interested.

If you're seeing this as a pissing contest, you're just projecting.
I'm just trying to keep the facts. Stating that Force SE switches the device into narrow mode is false. plain & simple.

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-06, 16:04:

Any help is appreciated.

OPs choices are simple, get yourself an U2W or UW controller with corresponding wide cable and terminators
or
and this would depend on whether the drive actually wants to work in narrow mode.
Get a Wide cable with two suitable terminators, one for each end of the cable. and add a wide to narrow adapter to the cable to which the controller gets attached.
or
and this would also depend on whether the drive actually wants to work in narrow mode.
A wide to narrow adapter which has high byte termination.

with the last two options being bit of a gamble since it depends on the drives willingness to go into narrow mode.

weedeewee wrote on 2023-11-07, 17:37:

If you're seeing this as a pissing contest, you're just projecting. I'm just trying to keep the facts. Stating that Force SE swi […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 17:07:

weedeewee wrote on 2023-11-07, 16:51:

Force SE does not switch the drive into 8 bit narrow mode.
You should know that if you actually know what you are talking about.

No but you know exactly what I mean though.

Im not really interested in having a pissing contest kind of conversation with you about it. You can either offer up some advice to the op to help him out of im just not interested.

If you're seeing this as a pissing contest, you're just projecting.
I'm just trying to keep the facts. Stating that Force SE switches the device into narrow mode is false. plain & simple.

teh_Foxx0rz wrote on 2023-11-06, 16:04:

Any help is appreciated.

OPs choices are simple, get yourself an U2W or UW controller with corresponding wide cable and terminators
or
and this would depend on whether the drive actually wants to work in narrow mode.
Get a Wide cable with two suitable terminators, one for each end of the cable. and add a wide to narrow adapter to the cable to which the controller gets attached.
or
and this would also depend on whether the drive actually wants to work in narrow mode.
A wide to narrow adapter which has high byte termination.

with the last two options being bit of a gamble since it depends on the drives willingness to go into narrow mode.

Thats fair enough...
Maybe I should have said Force SE jumper will set the drive to a mode that is compatible with the rest of the hardware. Provided the drive can do 8bit over a SE channel.

Why would you recommend he get an U2W or UW controller to control a disk we already know is SCSI-3 SCSI Ultra160? - That infomation is wrong. It will work, but it doesnt match the disk he has does it.
Wide cable and terminators...
You have already told me you cant mix the two, and you are the one who wants the facts. If youre going to call something something then call it what it is. I mean I have a SCSI-2 drive on a 68pin cable rated for U160...

He doesnt want it working in narrow mode, or SE come to that, he just wants it working and has the hardware he has.

The controller card itself will terminate one end of the cable... Why would he need to terminators? Remember you are the one who wants to be accurate here. So what does that mean?

I think if you read back then we have already established
I already suggested such an adapter, he wants to use the drive caddy he has.

The drive is U160

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-07, 17:57:

Why would you recommend he get an U2W or UW controller to control a disk we already know is SCSI-3 SCSI Ultra160? - That infomation is wrong. It will work, but it doesnt match the disk he has does it.
Wide cable and terminators...

What is wrong about that ? incomplete perhaps, yes OP could also go for a U160 or U320 adapter.

You have already told me you cant mix the two, and you are the one who wants the facts. If youre going to call something something then call it what it is. I mean I have a SCSI-2 drive on a 68pin cable rated for U160...

Did I say you can't mix the two? which two are you refering to ?
You have a scsi2 drive on a 68pin cable, your point being ?

He doesnt want it working in narrow mode, or SE come to that, he just wants it working and has the hardware he has.

That's what this whole thread is about.

The controller card itself will terminate one end of the cable... Why would he need to terminators? Remember you are the one who wants to be accurate here. So what does that mean?

it helps to be specific
If you're refering to this

weedeewee wrote on 2023-11-07, 17:37:

Get a Wide cable with two suitable terminators, one for each end of the cable. and add a wide to narrow adapter to the cable to which the controller gets attached.

then the setup should be clear, one terminator for each end of the cable.

I think if you read back then we have already established
I already suggested such an adapter, he wants to use the drive caddy he has.

The drive is U160

I never said nor implied that he couldn't use the caddy he has.

I also do not see the point you are trying to get at by stating the drive is U160. So what? It can be U640 for all I care.