You can write at any speed that is the max or lower. You won't have any issues writing at 4x on that 12x or high speed disks

Lutsoad wrote on 2023-11-09, 20:07:

I'm planning on testing my old CD-RW drives and ran into a problem with disks: there are only a few brands available (TDK, Verbatim, Maxell, Acme) and they are only available at 12X speed. No more 8X or 4X disks. Some of the drives are 2X, 4X, 8X only for CD-RW. Will I be able to test them with a 12X media?

Wiki says no, but I need confirmation: "Unlike a CD-R, a CD-RW has a minimum writing speed under which the discs cannot be recorded, based on the phase change material's heating and cooling time constants and the required laser energy levels. Since the CD-RW discs need to be blanked before recording data, writing too slowly or with too low energy on a high speed unblanked disc will cause the phase change layer to cool before blanking is achieved, preventing the data from being properly written."

Thank you.

I have ran into the same problem. If a medium is CD-RW High Speed, it requires a writer that can deal with them. Usually a writer that can write up to 4x on CD-RW media cannot burn CD-RW High Speed media.

Lutsoad wrote on 2023-11-09, 20:07:

Wiki says no, but I need confirmation: "Unlike a CD-R, a CD-RW has a minimum writing speed under which the discs cannot be recorded, based on the phase change material's heating and cooling time constants and the required laser energy levels. Since the CD-RW discs need to be blanked before recording data, writing too slowly or with too low energy on a high speed unblanked disc will cause the phase change layer to cool before blanking is achieved, preventing the data from being properly written."

I've never heard this before, but I've only used RW discs a few times in my life.
I always erased the disc as a separate operation. Is the above saying you can't erase the disc at all in an outdated drive, or is it just saying that "packet mode" won't work?

shamino wrote on 2023-11-09, 22:54:

Lutsoad wrote on 2023-11-09, 20:07:

Wiki says no, but I need confirmation: "Unlike a CD-R, a CD-RW has a minimum writing speed under which the discs cannot be recorded, based on the phase change material's heating and cooling time constants and the required laser energy levels. Since the CD-RW discs need to be blanked before recording data, writing too slowly or with too low energy on a high speed unblanked disc will cause the phase change layer to cool before blanking is achieved, preventing the data from being properly written."

I've never heard this before, but I've only used RW discs a few times in my life.
I always erased the disc as a separate operation. Is the above saying you can't erase the disc at all in an outdated drive, or is it just saying that "packet mode" won't work?

https://www.cdrfaq.org/faq04.html#S4-46

1Subject: [4-46] My CD-RW drive doesn't work with my CD-RW blanks
2(2004/01/23)
3If the disc is recognized but won't erase or format, see section (4-27).
4
5One possible source of difficulty is there are different blanks for "slow" recorders (1x - 4x), "high speed" recorders (4x-10x), "ultra speed" recorders (12x-24x), and "ultra speed +" recorders. The disc manufacturers had to change the way the discs were made to accommodate each successive improvement, so older recorders don't work with the newer disks.
6
7It is possible for some 4x-capable "slow" drives to use the "fast" blanks with a firmware upgrade, but there is no advantage to doing so since you're still limited to 4x recording (unless, of course, you're unable to find "slow" CD-RW blanks).
8
9CD-RW discs for the faster drives are labeled with a "High Speed", "Ultra Speed", or "Ultra Speed +" logos. Make sure you buy the right blanks for your drive.
10
11A press release for Verbatim's Ultra Speed + 32x CD-RW discs is available from http://www.eetimes.com/pressreleases/bizwire/97782.

According to Verbatim, their SERL tech "12x" are good for 4-12x https://www.verbatim.com.au/products/cd-rw-4x … 12x-high-speed/

Yes ! Good source info Darry ! There is another older topic here somewhere, about similar compatibility and lack of for CD-RW and CDR blanks and older drives. The old 2x, 4x and some 6x CDR drives have real issues with certain high speed CDR media too.....

This is news to me, I've never heard of "fast" media not working in a slower burner. As long as the burner supported the format being used.

Back in the day, cdrinfo and other websites had lots info on the dye color and media material used in early and later cdr and cdrw blanks. Not all media material and dye types were compatible across the broad spectrum of CD burners (and readers) as they moved from 2x thru 40x over the 90's.... should add that most of my friends stayed away from CDRW blanks (and still do) because they were twice as bad for compatibility back then as CDR disks were and cost so much more.

Horun wrote on 2023-11-10, 04:05:

Back in the day, cdrinfo and other websites had lots info on the dye color and media material used in early and later cdr and cdrw blanks. Not all media material and dye types were compatible across the broad spectrum of CD burners (and readers) as they moved from 2x thru 40x over the 90's....

I remember the debate about dye. I had a cd-burner early on. Taiyo-Yuden discs etc. Don't recall this having anything to do with speed.

CDRW media is a bit diff than CDR media and compatibility is very dependent on the media material and dye color versus laser setup in the drives. I like darry's research as at least said something where many of us found out thru experimentation and forums. I still do not use CDRW media because it is just not worth it... imho.

Per "Can a 4x CD-Writer write on 12X CD-RW" I should have added long ago that not all CD burners can write to CDRW media, you got to check the specs 😀
added: to test my CR burners I just burn a cdr blank and see if it works, who really cares if it writes cdrw blanks? sorta like testing the light scribe function, is only one aspect of a good drive that is rarely if ever used anymore 😁

BitWrangler wrote on 2023-11-10, 01:30:

According to Verbatim, their SERL tech "12x" are good for 4-12x https://www.verbatim.com.au/products/cd-rw-4x … 12x-high-speed/

This is true, but these media are still "high speed" CD-RW media, and can only be written at 4x speed if the drive firmware and hardware is able to recognize "high-speed CD-RW" as supported medium type and to modulate the laser intensity suitable for this kind of medium. As the CD-R FAQ says, some 4x drives can be made to work with media like this with a firmware upgrade (at 4x recording speed), but I guess for most 4x drives there just is no firmware upgrade to make them recognize high-speed CD-RW media.

Note that the entire topic is just about CD-RW media. I own a 24x/4x/4x drive that happily writes to the cheapest 52x CD-R media without any issue (at 4x speed). The incompatibility with high-speed CD-RW media is generally present in all drives that can not record CD-RW faster than 4x, so the common drives supporting CD-R at 8x and CD-RW at 4x still don't recognize high-speed CD-RW media as supported media (for writing). All CD-RW compatible CD writers can read CD-RW media of any kind, and usually at higher speed than the writing speed.

Thank you all guys, I guess I'll just buy a CD-RW disc from an available manufacturer and see how the older drives deal with it.
Found these, could they work in an older 4X CD-Rewriter or is it still dependent on the surface of the disc or the firmware/laser of the drive used?

Yes the rated speed of the media matters.
It doesnt matter so much these days as the drives can slow down but the older drives cant speed up.

Lutsoad wrote on 2023-11-10, 07:38:

Found these, could they work in an older 4X CD-Rewriter or is it still dependent on the surface of the disc or the firmware/laser of the drive used?
philips-8710101710242.jpg

4x - 12x media are "high speed CD-RW media", which were not yet around when 4x CD-Rewriters were produced and are not handled / recognized by firmware that was written at that time. If you can't get a later firmware upgrade that added "support for high-speed CD-RW media at 4x", it will most likely not work in a 4x CD-Rewriter. You can still buy media like these MAXELL 1x-4x media, which is a random "Google Shopping" hit when searching with a German IP. This is no endorsement for this specific seller or product. Media like these should work in all 4x CD-Rewriters.

mkarcher wrote on 2023-11-10, 16:05:

Lutsoad wrote on 2023-11-10, 07:38:

Found these, could they work in an older 4X CD-Rewriter or is it still dependent on the surface of the disc or the firmware/laser of the drive used?
philips-8710101710242.jpg

4x - 12x media are "high speed CD-RW media", which were not yet around when 4x CD-Rewriters were produced and are not handled / recognized by firmware that was written at that time. If you can't get a later firmware upgrade that added "support for high-speed CD-RW media at 4x", it will most likely not work in a 4x CD-Rewriter. You can still buy media like these MAXELL 1x-4x media, which is a random "Google Shopping" hit when searching with a German IP. This is no endorsement for this specific seller or product. Media like these should work in all 4x CD-Rewriters.

EDIT : @mkarcher , I realize that I pretty much reformulated what you said. I just wanted to be more explicit in order to reduce the chance of someone misunderstanding.

Yes, an older 1x-4x capable CDRW drive will not necessarily be able to write to newer 4x-12x media .

While the 4x speed overlap between writer capabilities and media rating suggests that it should just work, this is generally not the case. 1x-4x CDRW media and 4x-12x CDRW media need different write strategies, even when each is written to at 4x .

Consequently, unless the older 1x-4x CDRW drive has an updated firmware that implements the write strategy required for 4x-12x CDRW media, it will not work reliably or at all with 4x-12x CDRW media . If the writer has updated firmware that implements the write strategy required, it will be able to write to the newer media, but only at 4x.

That was the way I understood things to work when I still used such an older drive. Things might have changed or I could be misremembering.

Also, one should be careful about misidentified products for sale online. Always trust the part number or manufacturer packaging above what a seller might think they know about what they are selling

Lutsoad wrote on 2023-11-10, 07:38:

Thank you all guys, I guess I'll just buy a CD-RW disc from an available manufacturer and see how the older drives deal with it.
Found these, could they work in an older 4X CD-Rewriter or is it still dependent on the surface of the disc or the firmware/laser of the drive used?
philips-8710101710242.jpg

These are unlikely to work, even at 4x on your older drive unless there is a firmware update to allow it.

Please see @mkarcher 's comment (and mine).

EDIT : Sorry for the instance, the objective is to try to make sure that these are not purchased unnecessarily.

mkarcher wrote on 2023-11-10, 16:05:

Media like these should work in all 4x CD-Rewriters.

Thank you, funny that you mentioned the Maxell 1-4X because I've been trying to find a legit store that sells this exact same model, zero success so far. I checked like 20 local stores and they all have fake or non-existent stock. Scary. I still have a few more stores to try but if all else fails I might have to order it from Germany...

darry wrote on 2023-11-10, 16:31:

These are unlikely to work, even at 4x on your older drive unless there is a firmware update to allow it.
Please see @mkarcher 's comment (and mine).

I appreciate it, trying to find a place that sells these. I didn't think it would be so difficult.

Horun wrote on 2023-11-10, 04:16:

CDRW media is a bit diff than CDR media and compatibility is very dependent on the media material and dye color versus laser setup in the drives. I like darry's research as at least said something where many of us found out thru experimentation and forums. I still do not use CDRW media because it is just not worth it... imho.

Per "Can a 4x CD-Writer write on 12X CD-RW" I should have added long ago that not all CD burners can write to CDRW media, you got to check the specs 😀
added: to test my CR burners I just burn a cdr blank and see if it works, who really cares if it writes cdrw blanks? sorta like testing the light scribe function, is only one aspect of a good drive that is rarely if ever used anymore 😁

I agree.

TBH, I don't care at all about a vintage optical drive's ability to write anything, except maybe old(er) media for which newer writers might not have an optimal write strategy.

My main use case for writing CDRW is not wasting CDR media and I have plenty of modernish writers that handle at least 12x write speeds on still readily available CDRW media.
I don't see the point in writing CDRW discs at 1x-4x speeds. Life is too short.

My 2 cents worth of an opinion .