tauro wrote on 2024-02-06, 18:30:

• C2Q + ESS Solo-1 on a VIA chipset
  If you just want to push the limits of DOS on real hardware.

Any specific board/chipset suggestions? I've already tried on a Asrock 775Dual and am finding that ESS Solo-1 compatibility is... not great.

You could also go for the P4 S478 build, that would give you more raw speed, but it’s not as versatile. Of course, YMMV.

At the moment my main two experiments are a P4 Socket 478 and an P4 LGA775 build. The latter has dual ISA slots so I'm finding compatibility is highest with that setup.

For PCI sound cards, this is my rule of thumb:
YMF 7x4 (SiS Chipset <964)
ESS Solo-1/FM-801/ALS4000 (VIA chipset)

Any reason you favor the Yamaha card over the Solo-1 for SiS chipsets? I'm using an ESS Solo-1 with an SiS 645DX / 962L board, and it's been highly compatible with DOS titles.

kaputnik wrote on 2024-02-04, 08:56:

If you ask me, a DOS build needs ISA, there's really no way around it.

i'm of the same opinion. why give up isa if you don't have to. i built my first retro pc in 2007 with the idea of assembling the fastest possible consumer system with an isa slot. this is what i came up with:
- biostar m7mia-r (amd761, hpt370)
- athlon xp 2100 (palomino)
- 2 x 1gb 266mhz ddr ecc ram
- 2 x 40gb maxtor hdd raid (half-height, heads only on 1 side of platter for max seq read/write)
- radeon 9800 se (modded to 9800 pro)
- awe64 gold
- nec usb 2.0 pci
- nec 16x dvd burner (analog audio out)

unfortunately, the m7mia-r died while i was using it (black screen) and has since been replaced with an iwill kk266r-plus (kt133a, hpt372) which only runs pc-133 sdram; however, i got ahold of 3 x 512mb sticks that can run at 5-2-2 timings overclocked past 141mhz fsb so the kk266r-plus is faster than the biostar ddr board ever was.

i also replaced the hdd raid with compact flash, but i can't say the system is really any faster for it. the awe64 is now an aztech waverider platinum and i also enable the onboard cmi8738 for sound in windows.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-02-06, 21:19:

Any specific board/chipset suggestions? I've already tried on a Asrock 775Dual and am finding that ESS Solo-1 compatibility is... not great.

I still haven't created that build yet, but I'm going to try this one some day
https://www.ecs.com.tw/en/Product/Motherboard … 2/specification
You need to make sure that the PCI slot gets the correct IRQ. It's not always easy. Enable/disable settings on BIOS, or move cards around until they get IRQ 5 or 7.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-02-06, 21:19:

At the moment my main two experiments are a P4 Socket 478 and an P4 LGA775 build. The latter has dual ISA slots so I'm finding compatibility is highest with that setup.

That's great news! What I mean is that in my experience, using slow down utilities (such as throttle, slowmo, cpuspd, etc) is not the best way to run old DOS software. It's much better to modify the multipliers and the BUS speed and disable L1/L2 caches individually and get a real slow speed vs. an "emulated" one. But this is not something all motherboards and cpus support. Some games can become jerky or act strangely with such utilities. Sometimes they work well but not exactly the same as they would on the correct hardware. But if this is not your priority or you do not experience what I just mentioned, then S775 is the best option.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-02-06, 21:19:

Any reason you favor the Yamaha card over the Solo-1 for SiS chipsets? I'm using an ESS Solo-1 with an SiS 645DX / 962L board, and it's been highly compatible with DOS titles.

It's a matter of preference, a very subtle difference. Yamaha cards are the only PCI cards that have an original OPL chip, while the ESS cards have a clone, ESFM. There are probably other subtle differences. And there are probably some problematic games for each card too.

tauro wrote on 2024-02-06, 22:46:

I still haven't created that build yet, but I'm going to try this one some day
https://www.ecs.com.tw/en/Product/Motherboard … 2/specification

Cool, I'll take a look at that board.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-02-06, 21:19:

That's great news! What I mean is that in my experience, using slow down utilities (such as throttle, slowmo, cpuspd, etc) is not the best way to run old DOS software. It's much better to modify the multipliers and the BUS speed and disable L1/L2 caches individually and get a real slow speed vs. an "emulated" one. But this is not something all motherboards and cpus support.

I agree, which is one reason I'm considering attempting a Core 2 mod on that motherboard to be able to use an X6800 with its unlocked multiplier.

It's a matter of preference, a very subtle difference. Yamaha cards are the only PCI cards that have an original OPL chip, while the ESS cards have a clone, ESFM. There are probably other subtle differences. And there are probably some problematic games for each card too.

Ah, that's fair.

I find the ESFM is mostly indistinguishable from Yamaha's OPL FM, so I don't mind the ESS card.

I also added a wavetable header to the ESS Solo-1. I wonder why those Yamaha cards never included one...

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-02-08, 02:04:

Cool, I'll take a look at that board. […]
Show full quote

tauro wrote on 2024-02-06, 22:46:

I still haven't created that build yet, but I'm going to try this one some day
https://www.ecs.com.tw/en/Product/Motherboard … 2/specification

Cool, I'll take a look at that board.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-02-06, 21:19:

That's great news! What I mean is that in my experience, using slow down utilities (such as throttle, slowmo, cpuspd, etc) is not the best way to run old DOS software. It's much better to modify the multipliers and the BUS speed and disable L1/L2 caches individually and get a real slow speed vs. an "emulated" one. But this is not something all motherboards and cpus support.

I agree, which is one reason I'm considering attempting a Core 2 mod on that motherboard to be able to use an X6800 with its unlocked multiplier.

It's a matter of preference, a very subtle difference. Yamaha cards are the only PCI cards that have an original OPL chip, while the ESS cards have a clone, ESFM. There are probably other subtle differences. And there are probably some problematic games for each card too.

Ah, that's fair.

I find the ESFM is mostly indistinguishable from Yamaha's OPL FM, so I don't mind the ESS card.

I also added a wavetable header to the ESS Solo-1. I wonder why those Yamaha cards never included one...

Cost cutting usually, the Yammy ones were produced on mass for cheap prebuilts, though I do own a couple that have their WT header and a couple that also have the QSP1000 Wavetable rom on them.

Personally I dont like the QSP1000 WT, but Im spoilt by the X2GS.

ChrisK wrote on 2024-01-22, 10:04:

The bigger one is that the game instantly crashes to desktop as soon as you kill any centaur as well as the big enemy at the beginning of the very last level of the game (the big pyramid).

To follow up on this, I just tested the ATi CIF version of Tomb Raider on my Rage XL. I used the level skip cheat to get to the great pyramid, and can confirm that the game crashes to desktop after the big enemy at the start of that level is defeated. Haven't tried the centaurs, but I imagine it would be the same.

It's too bad that this makes it impossible to properly finish the game. The frame rate on this card is extremely good, and it very rarely goes below 30 FPS, even in stressful areas like the T-Rex fight.

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-02-08, 10:39:

Cost cutting usually, the Yammy ones were produced on mass for cheap prebuilts, though I do own a couple that have their WT header and a couple that also have the QSP1000 Wavetable rom on them.

Personally I dont like the QSP1000 WT, but Im spoilt by the X2GS.

i've been looking for awhile for a qsp1000 card with a yamaha chip. all the ones i've seen have either ess or opti chips. i've seen an opti card with both the wavetable header and the qsp1000.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-02-11, 12:20:

ChrisK wrote on 2024-01-22, 10:04:

The bigger one is that the game instantly crashes to desktop as soon as you kill any centaur as well as the big enemy at the beginning of the very last level of the game (the big pyramid).

To follow up on this, I just tested the ATi CIF version of Tomb Raider on my Rage XL. I used the level skip cheat to get to the great pyramid, and can confirm that the game crashes to desktop after the big enemy at the start of that level is defeated. Haven't tried the centaurs, but I imagine it would be the same.

It's too bad that this makes it impossible to properly finish the game. The frame rate on this card is extremely good, and it very rarely goes below 30 FPS, even in stressful areas like the T-Rex fight.

Thank you for testing this out!
That's very unfortunate. I was hoping this could just be some system specific issue that's possible to circumvent by taking your savegames to another machine (with a compatible ATi card).
But obviously it is not.
I wonder if anyone else ever played Tomb Raider on ATi CIF that far because there's nothing to find about this issue on the net.

ChrisK wrote on 2024-02-13, 09:55:

Thank you for testing this out! That's very unfortunate. I was hoping this could just be some system specific issue that's possi […]
Show full quote

Thank you for testing this out!
That's very unfortunate. I was hoping this could just be some system specific issue that's possible to circumvent by taking your savegames to another machine (with a compatible ATi card).
But obviously it is not.
I wonder if anyone else ever played Tomb Raider on ATi CIF that far because there's nothing to find about this issue on the net.

It would be interesting to see if this also occurs on older CIF capable cards like the Rage II. I don't have any of those, but maybe someone else can try it. Personally, I think this bug remained undiscovered because you fight centaurs fairly late in the game, and that big enemy is on the very last level.

P.S.

I tried the CIF version of Unfinished Business, and that also crashes on my Rage XL when a centaur is defeated.

So this might be a general problem in the ATi CIF version.
I also don't have a Rage II. Only Rage Pro's.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-02-06, 21:19:

tauro wrote on 2024-02-06, 18:30:

• C2Q + ESS Solo-1 on a VIA chipset
  If you just want to push the limits of DOS on real hardware.

Any specific board/chipset suggestions? I've already tried on a Asrock 775Dual and am finding that ESS Solo-1 compatibility is... not great.

I don't remember the exact chipset, but I had compatibility problems with my ESS Solo-1 on an Intel Socket 775 system as well. I don't recall the exact issue; either it caused the system to halt, blue screen, or failed it work. It was surprising at the time, as I had thought the Solo-1 to be bullet proof.

Creative PCI cards all worked, but I think they made DOS somewhat unstable. I believe this is due to poor driver quality and is not specific to anything related to the modern socket or chipset.

The most compatible PCI cards on this system were Aureal, but the FM was awful, and Yamaha.