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First post, by hpxca

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Dear Vogons Folks,
I was building a 486 DX2-66 and I ran into the common 504MB BIOS limitation with respect drive space. I tried EZRAID (DDO) to get around it and while it works just fine I wanted to mess around with XT-IDE as well. I purchased an ISA ROM card..this one => https://www.ebay.ca/itm/333274274119 as opposed to flashing it onto a NIC.

My video ROM seems to be <= 32k in size so C800 and up seems to be free, so initially I put the XT-IDE option ROM there and booted up. The ROM was detected and executed with no issues and the primary IDE controller (which is on a Multibest Industries MBCTL-02) card was detected just fine. This card only has a single IDE controller and floppy controller on board. The hard drive is the primary master - there is no slave on the bus - and the system booted...all was well so far. The IDE controller on this board is configured in the standard primary IDE configuration with the base at 1F0h, IRQ 14.

The CD-ROM is a "vintage" 16X CD-ROM that I did a little refurbishment on, and it is connected as the secondary master to the CT2830 IDE controller with the jumpers configured to 170h, IRQ 15 given that there's only a single controller on the I/O card. Without the XT-IDE ROM installed, the CD-ROM driver always detects the CD-ROM at 170h, IRQ 15 and everything works properly.

With the XT-IDE ROM installed there is long wait (about 15-30 seconds) as XT-IDE tries to detect a secondary master, when it fails and says none detected, the system boots but the CD-ROM driver fails to find a CD-ROM drive at 170h IRQ 15. This happens about 99% of the time. About 1% of the time, there is a much shorter detection period (1-2 seconds), XT-IDE still says there's no secondary master, but the CD-ROM driver loads normally and the CD-ROM works. Note again the "working scenario" is very rare and even rarer to have it actually work on consecutive reboots.

Here is what I have tried with no success (the CD-ROM is either not found at all, or found only very rarely):
-I have reflashed the EEPROM several times with the most recent version of the XT-IDE AT BIOS:
1. I have disabled detection of the primary and secondary slaves (because there are none).
2. I have confirmed that the IRQs match and the base and control register addresses are correct for both channels.
3. I have tried 8-bit mode on the secondary IDE.
4. I have tried polling instead of interrupt mode on the secondary IDE.
5. I have tried using just 1 IDE controller in XT-IDE (if I do this, the CD-ROM on the secondary IDE has never worked).
6. XTIDECFG.COM never detects the secondary IDE controller if you try to auto-configure it.
7. I have moved the base address of XT-IDE from C800 to D000.
8. I have re-jumpered the sound card to move the IDE interface to 1E8h, IRQ11.

Without fail, the CD-ROM always works if the XT-IDE expansion ROM is removed.

I have a pretty low-end ECS Elitegroup 4913 motherboard and one of the limitations of this board is that it can only shadow the system BIOS ("F-Segment"), the "C-Segment" and the "E-Segment", but it does not say exactly how much memory it shadows in each of these segments anywhere (I even read the manual!). I'm wondering with the limitations of this board if this is even worth the effort if I can't shadow the ROM. I was hoping that C800 was covered by C-Segment, but, of course without know if it's just a single 16k segment or more I can't be sure. If it is just one segment then only part of the video ROM is shadowed anyway.

If anyone has any ideas on what else I could try with XT-IDE or how much memory is actually getting shadowed with these BIOS settings, it would be appreciated.

Last edited by hpxca on 2024-02-02, 16:49. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 1 of 13, by Disruptor

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I guess plug and play is no issue on this card because it has jumpers for either IDE controller address and interrupt.

So please check whether port adresses are free. Please also check the status port address.

Primary 01F0h-01F7h + 03F6h + IRQ14
Secondary 0170h-0177h + 0376h + IRQ15
Tertiary 01E8h-01EFh + 03EEh + IRQ 11
Quaternary 0168h-016Fh + 036Eh + IRQ 10

But I have heared that SB16 may map the IDE Controls somewhere to 0370h.
I don't know whether XTIDE looks at those port adresses too.

https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/xt- … 6-models.35368/

And we had a discussion here: Sound Blaster CT2800 IDE interface . It is a Vibra, but it has jumpers for IDE port address and IRQ.

Reply 2 of 13, by hpxca

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Hmm, both of those threads are very interesting indeed. I may try to mess around with the control block address for a bit, but I have no idea how to figure out their location beyond a guess-and-test.

There may be a delay for me to do further testing on this though. I accidentally plugged that card in backwards and put 12V and -12V into the address lines of the EEPROM. Suffice to say the EEPROM didn't survive and the SN74F521 comparators on the board may not have survived either - OOPS! Fortunately there appears to be no other damage to the computer, so further testing is going to have to wait until I buy another EEPROM and possibly a couple comparators. I was just taking it out and fiddling with it too much and not paying attention 🙁

Reply 4 of 13, by weedeewee

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doesn't xtide need to be configured to look at those Tertiary and Quaternary addresses ?

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Reply 5 of 13, by douglar

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weedeewee wrote on 2024-02-02, 19:08:

doesn't xtide need to be configured to look at those Tertiary and Quaternary addresses ?

I think you are correct. It wont see them unless you bake a rom that looks for them.

Reply 6 of 13, by rasz_pl

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and afair configuration here means generating and flashing new firmware, so your fried EEPROM doesnt look like such tragedy 😀

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 7 of 13, by weedeewee

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Well, silly me for not reading the OPs actual post before commenting :-p

hpxca, what are your system bios hdd settings set for ?
WRT the shadowing, it's likely the whole segment, ie 64K, simplest test would be a program that times reads from those memory locations which you run twice, once without shadowing, once with. The difference should make it clear.

I do find it weird that,

5. I have tried using just 1 IDE controller in XT-IDE (if I do this, the CD-ROM on the secondary IDE has never worked).

older system bios never even knew about secondary controllers and the drivers talked directly to the hardware.
Which XT-IDE rom version are you using?

edit: also I'm not that experienced with xt-ide rom, so, is it supposed to detect atapi / ide cdrom drives ?

Right to repair is fundamental. You own it, you're allowed to fix it.
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Reply 8 of 13, by hpxca

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weedeewee wrote on 2024-02-04, 10:11:
Well, silly me for not reading the OPs actual post before commenting :-p […]
Show full quote

Well, silly me for not reading the OPs actual post before commenting :-p

hpxca, what are your system bios hdd settings set for ?
WRT the shadowing, it's likely the whole segment, ie 64K, simplest test would be a program that times reads from those memory locations which you run twice, once without shadowing, once with. The difference should make it clear.

I do find it weird that,

5. I have tried using just 1 IDE controller in XT-IDE (if I do this, the CD-ROM on the secondary IDE has never worked).

older system bios never even knew about secondary controllers and the drivers talked directly to the hardware.
Which XT-IDE rom version are you using?

edit: also I'm not that experienced with xt-ide rom, so, is it supposed to detect atapi / ide cdrom drives ?

I haven't got the new EEPROM yet (its coming from China i think) so I won't be able to test for couple weeks yet, but to answer this question the system BIOS drive settings seem to be completely ignored when XT-IDE is present. Under non-XT-IDE conditions the CF card (which is the HDD in this case) is accurately detected by the system BIOS. I'm not in front of that machine at the moment, so I can't provide the exact CHS numbers, but it works fine and even calculates the right capacity in the basic CMOS setup (just under 4G - it's a 4G CF card).

The secondary master is never detected, and I just leave it at "not installed", with or without XT-IDE. But without XT-IDE the CD-ROM works fine. This CD-ROM has never been identified by the system BIOS but that is not a barrier to it working. The system BIOS on this motherboard only supports primary/secondary IDE. Without XT-IDE tertiary and quaternary channels would never work although I don't really need them.

With XT-IDE installed I can just leave the system BIOS showing "not installed" for both, the CF card/HDD is accurately detected by XT-IDE no matter what the system BIOS says and works fine either way. I suspect this is because XT-IDE totally replaces the disk functions of the system BIOS (INT 13??).

What puzzles me the most here is why the CD-ROM works under XT-IDE "sometimes" and not others. I have a few other things I can try like a different CD-ROM and I/O card as well.

Oh and I was using XT-IDE r625. The EEPROM came with r624 or r623 I think, I tried it a few times before I re-programmed it with the latest, but the times I did try it the older versions behaved the same way.

Last edited by hpxca on 2024-02-05, 17:31. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 9 of 13, by weedeewee

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hpxca wrote on 2024-02-05, 13:34:
I haven't got the new EEPROM yet (its coming from China i think) so I won't be able to test for couple weeks yet, but to answer […]
Show full quote
weedeewee wrote on 2024-02-04, 10:11:
Well, silly me for not reading the OPs actual post before commenting :-p […]
Show full quote

Well, silly me for not reading the OPs actual post before commenting :-p

hpxca, what are your system bios hdd settings set for ?
WRT the shadowing, it's likely the whole segment, ie 64K, simplest test would be a program that times reads from those memory locations which you run twice, once without shadowing, once with. The difference should make it clear.

I do find it weird that,

5. I have tried using just 1 IDE controller in XT-IDE (if I do this, the CD-ROM on the secondary IDE has never worked).

older system bios never even knew about secondary controllers and the drivers talked directly to the hardware.
Which XT-IDE rom version are you using?

edit: also I'm not that experienced with xt-ide rom, so, is it supposed to detect atapi / ide cdrom drives ?

I haven't got the new EEPROM yet (its coming from China i think) so I won't be able to test for couple weeks yet, but to answer this question the system BIOS drive settings seem to be completely ignored when XT-IDE is present. Under non-XT-IDE conditions the CF card (which is the HDD in this case) is accurately detected by the system BIOS. I'm not in front of that machine at the moment, so I can't provide the exact CHS numbers, but it works fine and even calculates the right capacity in the basic CMOS setup (just under 4G - it's a 4G CF card).

The secondary master is never detected, and I just leave it at "not installed", with or without XT-IDE. But without XT-IDE the CD-ROM works fine. This CD-ROM has never been identified by the system BIOS but that is not a barrier to it working. The system BIOS on this motherboard only supports primary/secondary IDE. Without XT-IDE tertiary and quaternary channels would never work although I don't really need them.

With XT-IDE installed I can just leave the system BIOS showing "not installed" for both, the CF card/HDD is accurately detected by XT-IDE no matter what the system BIOS says and works fine either way. I suspect this is because XT-IDE totally replaces the disk functions of the system BIOS (INT 13??).

Yes, that's all normal.

What puzzles me the most here is why the CD-ROM works under XT-IDE "sometimes" and not others. I have a few other things I can try like a different CD-ROM and I/O card as well.

Oh and I was just XT-IDE r625. The EEPROM came with r624 or r623 I think, I tried it a few times before I re-programmed it with the latest, but the times I did try it the older versions behaved the same way.

That is indeed the puzzling part.
When using XT-IDE the cdrom most of the time fails to operate, while when not using XT-IDE it always works.

Considering there's xt-ide firmware files for XT, AT & 386, which one were you using ?

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Reply 10 of 13, by BitWrangler

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What CDROM driver are you using? I don't see it, if it's SBIDE.SYS it might be getting confused between seeing the SB card and thinking due to BIOS it's onboard secondary, while something like OAKCD.sys doesn't give a crap whether it's on a SB card or not.

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Reply 11 of 13, by hpxca

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BitWrangler wrote on 2024-02-05, 16:28:

What CDROM driver are you using? I don't see it, if it's SBIDE.SYS it might be getting confused between seeing the SB card and thinking due to BIOS it's onboard secondary, while something like OAKCD.sys doesn't give a crap whether it's on a SB card or not.

It was VIDE-CDD.SYS, I will admit I haven't tried another one yet.

Reply 12 of 13, by hpxca

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Considering there's xt-ide firmware files for XT, AT & 386, which one were you using ?

I was using the AT one, but actually I should have been using the 386 one given this is a 486. I was just thinking today maybe it was that simple. I'm itching to try it if only I had a working eeprom....

I also have a 32k eeprom coming too, so I can give the large builds a try - though I'm not keen on giving up that much memory.

Reply 13 of 13, by weedeewee

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hpxca wrote on 2024-02-05, 17:33:

Considering there's xt-ide firmware files for XT, AT & 386, which one were you using ?

I was using the AT one, but actually I should have been using the 386 one given this is a 486. I was just thinking today maybe it was that simple. I'm itching to try it if only I had a working eeprom....

I also have a 32k eeprom coming too, so I can give the large builds a try - though I'm not keen on giving up that much memory.

the biggest one is 10K, so at most you'll lose a 16k of memory occupied by the rom.

Right to repair is fundamental. You own it, you're allowed to fix it.
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
Do not ask Why !
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Serial_port