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IDT Winchip 2A PR266 a.k.a "Weirdo"

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First post, by JustJulião

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Weirdo is the surname I chosed myself but it deserves to be famous for its weirdness, or at least its hability to mess with MB's.

I recently got the Winchip 2A PR266, a 2.33x100 processor.

TLDR : Weird-to-impossible FSB and Multiplier settings via Jumperless configuration.

I've always liked exotic stuff, I'm more into retro hardware for the satisfaction of exploring the obscure hardware options that existed back then than out of pure nostalgia (my first PC had a Pentium II 400, I was too young to live the old 3D accelerators and old CPUs madness, and that's what I'm into currently).
That's why I needed a Winchip2.

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I chose this specific version rather than the "usual" 200MHz version for its collectability and because I expected better overclocking potential.
Both because it runs at 233MHz, which is good for a Winchip2, and because it requires "only" 3.3V to do so, instead of 3.5V.
With its high FSB, it's obviously aimed at SS7 motherboards, but I honestly think the amazing EPoX MVP3-C2 I have would have been wasted running such a slow CPU. That's why I opted for an old 430TX platform, which means I'll have to play with the multiplier to achieve decent speeds.

My board is a QDI P5I430TX Titanium IB+. It has a jumperless bios function called "Speedeasy".

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I expected multiplier's behavior to be quite unpredictable, but I didn't expect *that* level of weirdness.
Here is the fastest configuration I could get it running at 3.5V (for reference, I use EDO Ram here, not SD-RAM) :

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250MHz.
In case you didn't figure it out, 250MHz with a 66MHz bus mean a 3.8 multiplier.
I expected 3.5, 3.66 or 4, but isn't 3.8 strange?
The obvious explanation to this would be that the reported FSB is wrong. That would make sense especially because that's absolutely not the configuration I set in Speedeasy and because Sandra actually reports... 83x3 !

Settings are 75x2.

At this point, I'm guessing that most people reading this far are assuming that Sandra is right and Speedsys is wrong.
But if that's what you think, then explain this
This sheet lists everything Sandra reported (sometimes checked with Everest) with each setting and Sandra's CPU benchmark to make sure the numbers make sense.
If Sandra is right, it means that my mb (and my memory, in slow timing though) reached as high as 103MHz FSB, just because of the CPU. I don't even know if it's possible, not only because it's a lot for a 430TX but also because AFAIK FSB frequencies are fixed, 60/66/75/83 are "hard" ones. But I might be wrong, I don't know for sure.

But even if it were one of those PLLs that can produce exotic frequencies, how could the CPU force it?
What's the most reasonable explanation to you guys, Sandra/Everest in Windows (weird FSB) or Speedsys in DOS mode (weird multiplier)?

Last edited by JustJulião on 2024-02-27, 11:56. Edited 3 times in total.

Reply 1 of 71, by H3nrik V!

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Would the software just read what the jumpers (or the speed selection utility) is set to, unaware how the cpu interprets those settings?

Please use the "quote" option if asking questions to what I write - it will really up the chances of me noticing 😀

Reply 2 of 71, by JustJulião

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H3nrik V! wrote on 2024-02-14, 21:11:

Would the software just read what the jumpers (or the speed selection utility) is set to, unaware how the cpu interprets those settings?

No because, as mentionned, the actual settings are 2x75, meaning 150MHz. Whereas all three softs agree on that the CPU frequency being 250MHz. Quake in software (from Phil's Dosbench) gives around 45fps, which are definitely 250MHz speed.

Speedsys reports 250MHz with 66MHz FSB (that implies a weird 3.8 multi)
Sandra 98 & Everest report 250MHz with 3x83MHz (that implies weird FSBs with other parameters, like 103MHz FSB, as listed in my sheet).

Last edited by JustJulião on 2024-02-14, 21:40. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 3 of 71, by H3nrik V!

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Well, assuming the 75 MHz is correct (which is plausible) and the 250 is also correct, it would imply a 3.33 multiplier, which most software wouldn't know of? Thus guessing multiplier and fsb to yield the measured clock speed?

Please use the "quote" option if asking questions to what I write - it will really up the chances of me noticing 😀

Reply 4 of 71, by H3nrik V!

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There's something about different multipliers here

https://www.pchardwarelinks.com/cpuspeed.htm

Please use the "quote" option if asking questions to what I write - it will really up the chances of me noticing 😀

Reply 5 of 71, by H3nrik V!

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Which implies that the Winchip needs multiplier set to 2 to run at 3.33

Please use the "quote" option if asking questions to what I write - it will really up the chances of me noticing 😀

Reply 7 of 71, by rasz_pl

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no it wouldnt, Im not buying non integer multipliers. https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Winchip2/IDT-W … 3DFF266GTA.html
Imo more likely benchmarking software is not tuned for winchip and fails when counting cycles

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Reply 8 of 71, by Sphere478

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Winchip does indeed have a host of unusual fractional multipliers. They stand apart from other socket 5/7 cpus with that uniqueness

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Reply 9 of 71, by H3nrik V!

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rasz_pl wrote on 2024-02-15, 13:42:

no it wouldnt, Im not buying non integer multipliers. https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Winchip2/IDT-W … 3DFF266GTA.html
Imo more likely benchmarking software is not tuned for winchip and fails when counting cycles

Well, the link I posted, mentions a lot of non-integer multipliers, and the photo in the original post also shows 2.33 written on the actual cpu in question?

Please use the "quote" option if asking questions to what I write - it will really up the chances of me noticing 😀

Reply 10 of 71, by Sphere478

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Socket 5/7/ss7 CPU Multiplier Guide

Sphere's PCB projects.
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Sphere’s socket 5/7 cpu collection.
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SUCCESSFUL K6-2+ to K6-3+ Full Cache Enable Mod
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Tyan S1564S to S1564D single to dual processor conversion (also s1563 and s1562)

Reply 11 of 71, by Anonymous Coward

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Didn’t the AMD K5 also use non integer multipliers?

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Reply 12 of 71, by weedeewee

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H3nrik V! wrote on 2024-02-15, 13:58:
rasz_pl wrote on 2024-02-15, 13:42:

no it wouldnt, Im not buying non integer multipliers. https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Winchip2/IDT-W … 3DFF266GTA.html
Imo more likely benchmarking software is not tuned for winchip and fails when counting cycles

Well, the link I posted, mentions a lot of non-integer multipliers, and the photo in the original post also shows 2.33 written on the actual cpu in question?

Well the link you posted has a nice table, including a reference to the winchip-2A

setting the multiplier to
[code]
5.0x 2.5x 5.5x 3.0x 2.0x 1.5x 3.5x 4.0x 4.5x means
2.33x 2.5x 2.66x 3.0x 3.33x 3.5x 4.0x 4.5x 5.0x actual multiplier
[/code]

5.0x	2.5x	5.5x	3.0x	2.0x	1.5x/3.5x	4.0x	4.5x 	means
2.33x 2.5x 2.66x 3.0x 3.33x 3.5x 4.0x 4.5x actual multiplier
Last edited by weedeewee on 2024-02-15, 17:42. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 14 of 71, by Chkcpu

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weedeewee wrote on 2024-02-15, 14:17:
Well the link you posted has a nice table, including a reference to the winchip-2A […]
Show full quote
H3nrik V! wrote on 2024-02-15, 13:58:

Well, the link I posted, mentions a lot of non-integer multipliers, and the photo in the original post also shows 2.33 written on the actual cpu in question?

Well the link you posted has a nice table, including a reference to the winchip-2A

setting the multiplier to

5.0x	2.5x	5.5x	3.0x	2.0x	1.5x	3.5x	4.0x	4.5x 	means
2.33x 2.5x 2.66x 3.0x 3.33x 3.5x 4.0x 4.5x 5.0x actual multiplier

I mostly agree, but looking at the IDT WinChip BIOS writers guide, I found this table on page 7:

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When helping with beta testing my CHKCPU CPU Identification utility update last year, member Nemo1985 tested these settings on his WinChip 2A and confirmed this table to be correct, including the remap to 3.33x at the 2.0x setting. This means that the 2.0x multiplier is not available on the Winchip 2A.

@JustJulião, most tools won’t display these WinChip 2A multipliers correctly, but my DOS tool CHKCPU will. However, you will need to use the updated CHKCPU v1.27.1 for that. Older CHKCPU versions don’t support these weird multipliers. 😉
A link to my website is in my signature below. You can download CHKCPU there.

Now about the BIOS of your jumperless QDI Titanium IB+ board. Both the latest June 1998 V1.5SL and the patched January 2000 V1.5SB beta BIOS don’t support the WinChip 2(A)(B). The original WinChip C6 is supported but when running a WinChip 2/2A/2B, the SpeedEasy CPU SETUP in Jumper Emulation Mode will allow control of the BF1/BF0 pins only, resulting in a possible selection of the first four multiplier settings from the above table. So BF2 is fixed at a logical “1” and can’t be controlled.

The BIOS will indicate the WinChip C6 multipliers for these four BF1/BF0 combinations, so for the WinChip 2A the translation will be:

BIOS			Actual
x2, BF1/BF0=0/0 x2.5
x3, BF1/BF0=0/1 x3.0
x2, BF1/BF0=1/0 x3.33
x4, BF1/BF0=1/1 x3.5

I expect this is the behavior you get. Please let us know if you see something different.

Cheers, Jan

CPU Identification utility
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Reply 15 of 71, by rmay635703

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I thought the primary market for all models of Winchip was the fact you could take any old Socket 5 with the defective multiplier settings set FSB .= 60/66mhz and you automatically were upgraded to 200, 240 or 233mhz
(though some argue they are as slow as a P75 because of meh floating point)

Anonymous Coward wrote on 2024-02-15, 14:10:

Didn’t the AMD K5 also use non integer multipliers?

Honestly all non-Cyrix socket 5/7 were “non-integer “. Aka not limited to 1x,2x,3x,4x

I know what you mean though
SSA/K5 remapped to - 1.5x, 1.75x, 2.0x

Reply 16 of 71, by weedeewee

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Chkcpu wrote on 2024-02-15, 16:48:
weedeewee wrote on 2024-02-15, 14:17:
Well the link you posted has a nice table, including a reference to the winchip-2A […]
Show full quote
H3nrik V! wrote on 2024-02-15, 13:58:

Well, the link I posted, mentions a lot of non-integer multipliers, and the photo in the original post also shows 2.33 written on the actual cpu in question?

Well the link you posted has a nice table, including a reference to the winchip-2A

setting the multiplier to

5.0x	2.5x	5.5x	3.0x	2.0x	1.5x	3.5x	4.0x	4.5x 	means
2.33x 2.5x 2.66x 3.0x 3.33x 3.5x 4.0x 4.5x 5.0x actual multiplier

I mostly agree, but looking at the IDT WinChip BIOS writers guide, I found this table on page 7:

Well, shoo. Seems like something went wrong during my copy/pasting. Anyway the link H3nrik V! posted, https://www.pchardwarelinks.com/cpuspeed.htm definitly has it correct.
ah yes, I see it. I tripped over the 1.5x being in the same column as 3.5x.

Correction

5.0x	2.5x	5.5x	3.0x	2.0x	1.5x/3.5x	4.0x	4.5x 	means
2.33x 2.5x 2.66x 3.0x 3.33x 3.5x 4.0x 4.5x actual multiplier

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Reply 17 of 71, by Chkcpu

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weedeewee wrote on 2024-02-15, 17:41:
Well, shoo. Seems like something went wrong during my copy/pasting. Anyway the link H3nrik V! posted, https://www.pchardwarelink […]
Show full quote

Well, shoo. Seems like something went wrong during my copy/pasting. Anyway the link H3nrik V! posted, https://www.pchardwarelinks.com/cpuspeed.htm definitly has it correct.
ah yes, I see it. I tripped over the 1.5x being in the same column as 3.5x.

Correction

5.0x	2.5x	5.5x	3.0x	2.0x	1.5x/3.5x	4.0x	4.5x 	means
2.33x 2.5x 2.66x 3.0x 3.33x 3.5x 4.0x 4.5x actual multiplier

Thanks for correcting the table weedeewee!
So it was a simple table shift, but it looks perfect now. 😀

Cheers, Jan

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Reply 18 of 71, by JustJulião

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rasz_pl wrote on 2024-02-15, 13:42:

no it wouldnt, Im not buying non integer multipliers. https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Winchip2/IDT-W … 3DFF266GTA.html
Imo more likely benchmarking software is not tuned for winchip and fails when counting cycles

The W2A-3DFF266GTA isn't even running at 266MHz as stated by CW. It's a rating and the actual intented clock is 233MHz.
IDT made it very confusing because some W2s ran at the speed stated in their name.
My guess is that within 233MHz versions, the 100MHz FSB speed (2.33x100) was regarded as getting a nice speed bonus from the high FSB frequency, compared to the 66MHz version (3.5x66).
So they named that 233MHz "266".

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Last edited by JustJulião on 2024-02-15, 19:49. Edited 3 times in total.

Reply 19 of 71, by JustJulião

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The more I think the more I believe that H3nrik V! is right, it wouldn't make sense that the FSB would run at an exotic speed because of the CPU. And the 3.8 multiplier is still unlikely.
Most likely, the FSB runs at the intented speed in BIOS settings, but the multipliers are messed up. I'm close to 100% sure now that mine runs at 3.33x75 and that both Windows and DOS utilities are wrong in different ways.
Do you guys want benchmarks to make sure that it runs at 250 MHz? Any suggestion?

EDIT :
@Chkcpu I will use your tool!
I use the patched bios, but it does show a sad "66MHz" instead of the CPU's name when posting.
In the BIOS itself it just states "Winchip".

rmay635703 wrote on 2024-02-15, 17:10:

I thought the primary market for all models of Winchip was the fact you could take any old Socket 5 with the defective multiplier settings set FSB .= 60/66mhz and you automatically were upgraded to 200, 240 or 233mhz
(though some argue they are as slow as a P75 because of meh floating point)

On a 430TX, I'd say it's slightly inferior to the Pentium MMX, clock for clock. Maybe it's been crippled by old chipsets on socket5 boards.
And it's probably as good or slightly better clock-for-clock with 100MHz FSB and more.
I want to keep that PC as it is for now, but I might test 100+ FSB speeds on my EPoX EP-MVP3C2 board some day.