Trashbytes wrote on 2024-04-06, 02:23:

Oh wow you managed to pick the one game that is a bitch to get running correctly on anything newer than a real 386, if its Wing […]
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Scythifuge wrote on 2024-04-06, 01:49:

So far, setmul, throttle, and moslo deluxe are failing to get Wing Commander to a playable state on this PC. I have tried various settings.

Oh wow you managed to pick the one game that is a bitch to get running correctly on anything newer than a real 386, if its Wing Commander 1 you can try DOS box as this game is well known for being super speed sensitive, IIRC Phil from Phils computer lab has managed to get it running correctly via his 136 in 1 Pentium MMX retro machine.

https://www.philscomputerlab.com/136-in-1-pentium-mmx.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcBmEjXg2ME about 11:15 in this video he is playing WC1 on this setup.

Hehe, it indeed is a PIA. I use it as a test game when trying to slow down a system. I beat it back in the mid-2000s on a 486DX2, because moslo worked for me on that machine. I lost the save game or else I would just transfer it into the games that game after it since you can use the same pilot all across WC 1 & 2 and the expansions. However, looking at the vogons speed sensitive game page, it looks like I may run into other problems in games I like, such as Dune.

I made an offer on a P2 233, and I am looking at some P1 options. I have a P-133 board here, but no USB on it and the heatsink is missing, or I would just use that and use my ATI Rage 2 PCI in lieu of the Voodoo 3 (though I did want MMX for Pod and some other stuff.) There is a dude that lives a couple of towns over with a garage full of old PCs for less than $75 each. I messaged him and I may go see what he has. I asked if he had a Pentium 233, and he said, "come and look." If I stop posting after a couple of days or so, then I got axe murdered in that dude's garage (or the world ended on the 8th.)

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-04-06, 02:38:

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-04-06, 02:23:

Oh wow you managed to pick the one game that is a bitch to get running correctly on anything newer than a real 386, if its Wing […]
Show full quote

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-04-06, 01:49:

So far, setmul, throttle, and moslo deluxe are failing to get Wing Commander to a playable state on this PC. I have tried various settings.

Oh wow you managed to pick the one game that is a bitch to get running correctly on anything newer than a real 386, if its Wing Commander 1 you can try DOS box as this game is well known for being super speed sensitive, IIRC Phil from Phils computer lab has managed to get it running correctly via his 136 in 1 Pentium MMX retro machine.

https://www.philscomputerlab.com/136-in-1-pentium-mmx.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcBmEjXg2ME about 11:15 in this video he is playing WC1 on this setup.

Hehe, it indeed is a PIA. I use it as a test game when trying to slow down a system. I beat it back in the mid-2000s on a 486DX2, because moslo worked for me on that machine. I lost the save game or else I would just transfer it into the games that game after it since you can use the same pilot all across WC 1 & 2 and the expansions. However, looking at the vogons speed sensitive game page, it looks like I may run into other problems in games I like, such as Dune.

I made an offer on a P2 233, and I am looking at some P1 options. I have a P-133 board here, but no USB on it and the heatsink is missing, or I would just use that and use my ATI Rage 2 PCI in lieu of the Voodoo 3 (though I did want MMX for Pod and some other stuff.) There is a dude that lives a couple of towns over with a garage full of old PCs for less than $75 each. I messaged him and I may go see what he has. I asked if he had a Pentium 233, and he said, "come and look." If I stop posting after a couple of days or so, then I got axe murdered in that dude's garage (or the world ended on the 8th.)

Its certainly a perfect sanity test 🤣

You might want to look into a PCI USB card (NEC works IIRC), they can be had for pennies and there are DOS utils to get it working under DOS via a ATAPI drive odly enough, makes the driver believe each USB port is a CD drive or some such shenanigans.

I personally use a GoTek or my Zip 100 drive for DOS stuff, Some say networking is best but I find it to be slower than other options.

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-04-06, 02:42:

Its certainly a perfect sanity test XD […]
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Scythifuge wrote on 2024-04-06, 02:38:

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-04-06, 02:23:

Oh wow you managed to pick the one game that is a bitch to get running correctly on anything newer than a real 386, if its Wing Commander 1 you can try DOS box as this game is well known for being super speed sensitive, IIRC Phil from Phils computer lab has managed to get it running correctly via his 136 in 1 Pentium MMX retro machine.

https://www.philscomputerlab.com/136-in-1-pentium-mmx.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcBmEjXg2ME about 11:15 in this video he is playing WC1 on this setup.

Hehe, it indeed is a PIA. I use it as a test game when trying to slow down a system. I beat it back in the mid-2000s on a 486DX2, because moslo worked for me on that machine. I lost the save game or else I would just transfer it into the games that game after it since you can use the same pilot all across WC 1 & 2 and the expansions. However, looking at the vogons speed sensitive game page, it looks like I may run into other problems in games I like, such as Dune.

I made an offer on a P2 233, and I am looking at some P1 options. I have a P-133 board here, but no USB on it and the heatsink is missing, or I would just use that and use my ATI Rage 2 PCI in lieu of the Voodoo 3 (though I did want MMX for Pod and some other stuff.) There is a dude that lives a couple of towns over with a garage full of old PCs for less than $75 each. I messaged him and I may go see what he has. I asked if he had a Pentium 233, and he said, "come and look." If I stop posting after a couple of days or so, then I got axe murdered in that dude's garage (or the world ended on the 8th.)

Its certainly a perfect sanity test 🤣

You might want to look into a PCI USB card (NEC works IIRC), they can be had for pennies and there are DOS utils to get it working under DOS via a ATAPI drive odly enough, makes the driver believe each USB port is a CD drive or some such shenanigans.

I personally use a GoTek or my Zip 100 drive for DOS stuff, Some say networking is best but I find it to be slower than other options.

I will definitely do that if I end up with a system without USB. I have been experimenting with different DOS USB options with this current build, though of course there have been problems as there are with literally every single retro-build I ever make/work on. Sometimes sub directories are empty on drives, or everything looks corrupted. This was after trying to use parallel port CF readers but failing to get them to work on two different builds.

I just purchased a Pentium II 233 (sl2hd.) I read that it can be brought down to 133Mhz on some boards. Does this mean that some of these slowdown options mentioned here may work where they have failed on this P3 550?

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-04-06, 04:07:

I just purchased a Pentium II 233 (sl2hd.) I read that it can be brought down to 133Mhz on some boards. Does this mean that some of these slowdown options mentioned here may work where they have failed on this P3 550?

Yes, Disabling both L1 and L2 and lowering the multi will let you bring that 233 down to a crawl, setmul, throttle and moslow should also have better results.

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-04-06, 04:13:

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-04-06, 04:07:

I just purchased a Pentium II 233 (sl2hd.) I read that it can be brought down to 133Mhz on some boards. Does this mean that some of these slowdown options mentioned here may work where they have failed on this P3 550?

Yes, Disabling both L1 and L2 and lowering the multi will let you bring that 233 down to a crawl, setmul, throttle and moslow should also have better results.

Excellent. I am hoping that I can get close to 486 speeds. Maybe the CPU emulation of moslo deluxe will work with that CPU. I did get WC1 to run "better" with setmul after I rebooted. For some reason, it wouldn't work the first time. It actually made it too slow in some parts, such as when enemy ships were taking up most of the view. I wonder would run better with L1 off and L2 on? AT any rate, I hope for the results I am looking for with sl2hd. I am trying to avoid building another retro box, hehe..

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-04-06, 04:38:

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-04-06, 04:13:

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-04-06, 04:07:

I just purchased a Pentium II 233 (sl2hd.) I read that it can be brought down to 133Mhz on some boards. Does this mean that some of these slowdown options mentioned here may work where they have failed on this P3 550?

Yes, Disabling both L1 and L2 and lowering the multi will let you bring that 233 down to a crawl, setmul, throttle and moslow should also have better results.

Excellent. I am hoping that I can get close to 486 speeds. Maybe the CPU emulation of moslo deluxe will work with that CPU. I did get WC1 to run "better" with setmul after I rebooted. For some reason, it wouldn't work the first time. It actually made it too slow in some parts, such as when enemy ships were taking up most of the view. I wonder would run better with L1 off and L2 on? AT any rate, I hope for the results I am looking for with sl2hd. I am trying to avoid building another retro box, hehe..

Misread that, missed the part about it being a PII ..saw the 233 and assumed a Pentium MMX 233, still you should get somewhat better results, not sure you can change the multi on that PII but some were unlocked but if you can lower it via the motherboard perhaps you got lucky !

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-04-06, 01:49:

So far, setmul, throttle, and moslo deluxe are failing to get Wing Commander to a playable state on this PC. I have tried various settings.

Wing Commander works perfect in my pentium 3 1ghz with cpucache off

Using 1ghz p3+via chipset i can get, using throttle (0 to F levels)

throttle at F level+cache off = 1-2mhz 8088

throttle at C level cache off = 4.77mhz XT

throttle B cache off = 286 16mhz

cache off = 386 dx33 aprox

throttle F level cache on = 486DX2-4 aprox

etc

Still dis not find any game or app that give me problems because cpu speed

moslo and software solutios are thing from past if right hardware is chossen, and good thing is the right hard is cheap as hell now, in spain a P3 motherboard and 370 cpu worth less than nothing almost

theelf wrote on 2024-04-06, 12:24:

Wing Commander works perfect in my pentium 3 1ghz with cpucache off […]
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Scythifuge wrote on 2024-04-06, 01:49:

So far, setmul, throttle, and moslo deluxe are failing to get Wing Commander to a playable state on this PC. I have tried various settings.

Wing Commander works perfect in my pentium 3 1ghz with cpucache off

Using 1ghz p3+via chipset i can get, using throttle (0 to F levels)

throttle at F level+cache off = 1-2mhz 8088

throttle at C level cache off = 4.77mhz XT

throttle B cache off = 286 16mhz

cache off = 386 dx33 aprox

throttle F level cache on = 486DX2-4 aprox

etc

Still dis not find any game or app that give me problems because cpu speed

Different board, different CPU so yes you had a different experience, your settings likely wont work for a locked Slot 1 CPU.

Once Scyth gets the socket 7 MMX all the settings should work just fine, its just the locked Slot 1 being a pain in the butt.

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-04-06, 12:37:

theelf wrote on 2024-04-06, 12:24:

Wing Commander works perfect in my pentium 3 1ghz with cpucache off […]
Show full quote

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-04-06, 01:49:

So far, setmul, throttle, and moslo deluxe are failing to get Wing Commander to a playable state on this PC. I have tried various settings.

Wing Commander works perfect in my pentium 3 1ghz with cpucache off

Using 1ghz p3+via chipset i can get, using throttle (0 to F levels)

throttle at F level+cache off = 1-2mhz 8088

throttle at C level cache off = 4.77mhz XT

throttle B cache off = 286 16mhz

cache off = 386 dx33 aprox

throttle F level cache on = 486DX2-4 aprox

etc

Still dis not find any game or app that give me problems because cpu speed

Different board, different CPU so yes you had a different experience, your settings likely wont work for a locked Slot 1 CPU.

I have a celeron mendocino 366 with intel motherboard and i get similar results, only throttle cant fine tune as via chipset can, but i can get from XT 4.77 to 486 speed without problem, intel give you 8 steps, via 16

I dont think there is any Pentium 2 that will.give you any problems with trhottle, is more or less universal in p2/3 boards

Edit i tested right now in a dell pentium 2 450 with intel chipset a customer just give to me.to install dos and win3.1 and same, throttle works fine and i can play zaxxon at rught speed and wing commander works fine too, monkey island without patch dont crash, megarace using turbo arrows work at right speed too

Like i said i dont think there is any pentium2+ board throttle dont work

I just got back from that dude's place with an old but working Gateway Pentium 166 MMX. We had to dig it out from behind stacks of P3's and up. If I had gone there a month ago, I would have gotten a 233 and some other cool stuff. I also grabbed a floppy drive. Ironically, this motherboard is similar to one on ebay I was looking at, except that it has integrated video (Rage II I believe,) and integrated sound (which I will not be using,) and one less PCI slot. That may be fine, depending on the amount of RAM the integrated video uses (or else I have to put a PCI video card in there and sacrifice my 10/100 NIC and replace that with an ISA NIC.) He hooked it up to verify that it works. So between the PII 233 CPU on the way and this 166 MMX Gateway, I think my issues are solved!

I transplanted the Intel mobo/Pentium 166 MMX into my horizontal desktop case (but had to sacrifice 2nd optical drive because this Intel board is huge, and I did not want to removed my 5.25 1.2mb floppy drive.) However, it wouldn't boot up, because this crap happens to me literally every time. However, I reseated the CPU and the RAM and got it to boot up with 64mb RAM (2x 32mb modules.) Reinstalled Windows with 98lite, and started installing games. However, it rebooted while installing Fallout, and I got a "memory reduced" error - the 64mb dropped to 49mb, which is weird. Either the 2nd RAM slot is whacked, or this board is fickle with what modules it supports, so I am down to 32mb RAM which is probably fine for a 166 MMX. I may try to grab a 64mb module from somewhere, or throw this 128mb module I have into it (though that is from my Pentium II.) I thought I had more modules, but I cannot locate anymore at this time. I have one module with a 64mb sticker on it, but it boots up as a 16mb module.

So now that I have a set up which can be more easily slowed down to 486, 386, and 286 speeds, what is the recommended method for this? I am thinking that if I can reliably emulate previous generations of CPU, I'll set up a multi-config.sys/autoexec.bat so that I can just boot up with those speeds. The other, more tedious option is to create batch files for each game. Of course, both options depend on the method used.

This appears to be a task for the throttle blaster. There's a video available on Scrap Computing's YouTube channel, it's DIY project that even beginners can tackle. I'm waiting to get the PCBs so I can test it out. There is also a thread here on vogons about this project: Throttle Blaster

sysctl wrote on 2024-04-09, 08:50:

This appears to be a task for the throttle blaster. There's a video available on Scrap Computing's YouTube channel, it's DIY project that even beginners can tackle. I'm waiting to get the PCBs so I can test it out. There is also a thread here on vogons about this project: Throttle Blaster

That looks fantastic! If someone makes them for sale, I will buy 1 or 5 of them. I am glad to have found and rebuild this 166 MMX as it is a classic set up and feels like an upgrade from my original P90 (OC'd to 100Mhz because it was the only way to get the opening digitized speech in Veil of Darkness not to screech - I don't even know how I figured that one out as an inexperienced teen,) but it would be nice to go back to my idea from a couple-few years back and have a universal system that covered 1980-1999 with a Pentium III and multiple voodoo cards with an AWE32 and a Live! for Windows 9x. I would like to have two retro systems (the other being an Athlon XP/Win XP system) instead of however many I have now.

So far, setmul isn't slowing down Wing Commander much at all, despite reading threads where others with a 166 are claiming it is playable. Maybe I am using it wrong.

Just tested Wing Commander on a PII at 350MHz and it works with L1&L2 cache disabled. Music plays without glitches and game speed seems normal, as far as I can tell. I used setmul L1D L2D.
With that Norton Sysinfo reports a cpu speed of 12.5.

sysctl wrote on 2024-04-12, 17:33:

Just tested Wing Commander on a PII at 350MHz and it works with L1&L2 cache disabled. Music plays without glitches and game speed seems normal, as far as I can tell. I used setmul L1D L2D.
With that Norton Sysinfo reports a cpu speed of 12.5.

Thank you! I ended up putting together a P1 166 MMX and using a combination of setmul and "moslo /60" (can't disable L2 on this set up,) and beat WC last night and am starting SM1 today. However, I have a P2 233 CPU coming tomorrow, and I bought a SS7 with a K6-2 CPU system, but it hasn't shipped yet.

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-04-13, 01:45:

sysctl wrote on 2024-04-12, 17:33:

Just tested Wing Commander on a PII at 350MHz and it works with L1&L2 cache disabled. Music plays without glitches and game speed seems normal, as far as I can tell. I used setmul L1D L2D.
With that Norton Sysinfo reports a cpu speed of 12.5.

Thank you! I ended up putting together a P1 166 MMX and using a combination of setmul and "moslo /60" (can't disable L2 on this set up,) and beat WC last night and am starting SM1 today. However, I have a P2 233 CPU coming tomorrow, and I bought a SS7 with a K6-2 CPU system, but it hasn't shipped yet.

L2 can usually be disabled via the BIOS itself on socket 7 boards, there are also other options like memory timings and bus speeds you may be able to play with to tweak things even further for the odd games that just have to have perfect hardware or to fix speed sensitive sound cards and such.

The main point of doing most of it via the bios would be to remove the need for software fixes which may just get in the way or not work with some software.

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-04-13, 01:58:

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-04-13, 01:45:

sysctl wrote on 2024-04-12, 17:33:

Just tested Wing Commander on a PII at 350MHz and it works with L1&L2 cache disabled. Music plays without glitches and game speed seems normal, as far as I can tell. I used setmul L1D L2D.
With that Norton Sysinfo reports a cpu speed of 12.5.

Thank you! I ended up putting together a P1 166 MMX and using a combination of setmul and "moslo /60" (can't disable L2 on this set up,) and beat WC last night and am starting SM1 today. However, I have a P2 233 CPU coming tomorrow, and I bought a SS7 with a K6-2 CPU system, but it hasn't shipped yet.

L2 can usually be disabled via the BIOS itself on socket 7 boards, there are also other options like memory timings and bus speeds you may be able to play with to tweak things even further for the odd games that just have to have perfect hardware or to fix speed sensitive sound cards and such.

The main point of doing most of it via the bios would be to remove the need for software fixes which may just get in the way or not work with some software.

I tried disabling the system cache (it is the only cache option in the bios - this bios has some of the fewest options I have ever seen, my Tomato 4dps has more options, hehehe.) Disabling system cache in the bios made WC run way too slow with this particular board. Removing the secondary cache from the board plus setmul worked, but I didn't want to deal with swapping the cache all of the time. I'll switch systems after testing and playing around with the P2 233 and the K6-2 systems when I can get them set up. It seems I will have better luck with a newer system using setmul and what not.

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-04-13, 02:16:

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-04-13, 01:58:

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-04-13, 01:45:

Thank you! I ended up putting together a P1 166 MMX and using a combination of setmul and "moslo /60" (can't disable L2 on this set up,) and beat WC last night and am starting SM1 today. However, I have a P2 233 CPU coming tomorrow, and I bought a SS7 with a K6-2 CPU system, but it hasn't shipped yet.

L2 can usually be disabled via the BIOS itself on socket 7 boards, there are also other options like memory timings and bus speeds you may be able to play with to tweak things even further for the odd games that just have to have perfect hardware or to fix speed sensitive sound cards and such.

The main point of doing most of it via the bios would be to remove the need for software fixes which may just get in the way or not work with some software.

I tried disabling the system cache (it is the only cache option in the bios - this bios has some of the fewest options I have ever seen, my Tomato 4dps has more options, hehehe.) Disabling system cache in the bios made WC run way too slow with this particular board. Removing the secondary cache from the board plus setmul worked, but I didn't want to deal with swapping the cache all of the time. I'll switch systems after testing and playing around with the P2 233 and the K6-2 systems when I can get them set up. It seems I will have better luck with a newer system using setmul and what not.

wow .. what board is it .. never seen a socket 7 not have that option, perhaps there is a newer BIOS for it on retroweb or a modded bios around ?