VOGONS


First post, by Nexxen

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Hello!!

I was wondering if there is a list of compatible chips that can be swapped happily or any known incompatibility.

I have a few and before I toast them out of ignorance I prefer to ask here.

Thanks!

Last edited by Nexxen on 2023-10-08, 23:11. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 1 of 24, by twiz11

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Nexxen wrote on 2023-10-08, 22:41:
Hello!! […]
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Hello!!

I was wondering if there is a list of compatible chips that can be swapped happily or any known incompatibility.

I have a few and before I toast them out of ignorance I prefer to ask here.

Thanks!

interesting, this is the first I've heard of keyboards having their own BIOS. I toast my keyboard everytime i loose a match well used to. now its when windows updates silently

Reply 2 of 24, by Jo22

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Hi there, I'm speaking under correction, but I believe the keyboard BIOS actually is a whole keyboard controller with firmware.

It's a microcontroller, so to say. And since it's usually the same type (the long one, 8042?), chances are good the pinout is always/often the same.

Speaking under correction, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_ ... computing)

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Reply 3 of 24, by jakethompson1

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Keyboard BIOS is a synonym for keyboard controller and it seems like one of those things like calling an NVRAM a "CMOS"

The wrong KBC may break things like the turbo button or Energy Star features.

Programming the AMIBIOS pp. 431-450 includes a list of commands that can be sent to the KBC, some of which are considered AMI-specific. So those could be examples of things that might break.

Reply 4 of 24, by Jo22

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Makes sense. Maybe it's best to use an keyboard controller w/ AMI sticker with a motherboard that uses an AMI PC/AT BIOS, too?
From what I read, the firmware in the keyboard controller needs to use the same "language" as the BIOS of the PC.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 5 of 24, by jakethompson1

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Jo22 wrote on 2023-10-08, 23:05:

Makes sense. Maybe it's best to use an keyboard controller w/ AMI sticker with a motherboard that uses an AMI PC/AT BIOS, too?
From what I read, the firmware in the keyboard controller needs to use the same "language" as the BIOS of the PC.

I haven't attempted a KBC swap so I'm not sure. Because protected mode OSes will be bypassing the BIOS and accessing the KBC directly, at least the "normal" keyboard and moues portion has to be standardized.
I suspect there will be "graceful degradation" with the wrong KBC--enough that I don't think things like PCem bother with different models of KBC, or if they do, there should be clues in the source code as to what matters and what doesn't.

Reply 6 of 24, by Nexxen

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Yep, that chip... I made a mistake because one had BIOS written on it.
Jet's fault 🤣

Basically it won't work or work incorrectly but not fry anything?
Then I should look for datasheets and compare.

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"One hates the specialty unobtainium parts, the other laughs in greed listing them under a ridiculous price" - kotel studios

Reply 7 of 24, by BitWrangler

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Since they handle the A20 line in ATs it's possible you might find one working fine with base RAM then stick more than a megabyte in board and have problems.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 8 of 24, by maxtherabbit

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Nexxen wrote on 2023-10-08, 23:13:
Yep, that chip... I made a mistake because one had BIOS written on it. Jet's fault LOL […]
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Yep, that chip... I made a mistake because one had BIOS written on it.
Jet's fault 🤣

Basically it won't work or work incorrectly but not fry anything?
Then I should look for datasheets and compare.

That's correct, they are all pin/electrically compatible, so no possibility of damage. Just stick it in and try it. It may work 100%, or work with shortcomings, or not work at all. Only one way to find out!

Reply 9 of 24, by Nexxen

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Is there a replacement chip commonly available without having to pay in kidneys?

I read something about the VIA VT82C42, but I think it should be suitable.
HT6542B? I saw them both sold online.
Before I purchase some and discover they aren't fully 286/386 compatible, is it what I'm looking for? Anything I should know?

Edit: I tried a Jet Keyboard no ver. in place of ver 3.0: not posting beyond 0605 codes.

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Reply 10 of 24, by mkarcher

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There are at least two types of incompatible keyboard controllers: AT-type keyboard controllers without mouse support and PS/2-type keyboard controllers with mouse supports. The port pins are connected differently, so that a PS/2-type keybaord controller will not even support the keyboard in an mainboard that is designed for an AT-type keyboard controller.

Reply 11 of 24, by Nexxen

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mkarcher wrote on 2023-10-15, 23:36:

There are at least two types of incompatible keyboard controllers: AT-type keyboard controllers without mouse support and PS/2-type keyboard controllers with mouse supports. The port pins are connected differently, so that a PS/2-type keybaord controller will not even support the keyboard in an mainboard that is designed for an AT-type keyboard controller.

This is interesting.

I checked the JetKey no ver. and found that it isn't working in any board I have. Probably dead, so not a good candidate for comparisons.
Looking around I found a few 8042 keyb chips and will look for the PS2 - non PS2 capability.

This is becoming interesting. + I have to learn more about Gate20.

Vielen Dank!

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PC#2 PIII-1Ghz - 98SE/W2K

"One hates the specialty unobtainium parts, the other laughs in greed listing them under a ridiculous price" - kotel studios

Reply 12 of 24, by maxtherabbit

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mkarcher wrote on 2023-10-15, 23:36:

There are at least two types of incompatible keyboard controllers: AT-type keyboard controllers without mouse support and PS/2-type keyboard controllers with mouse supports. The port pins are connected differently, so that a PS/2-type keybaord controller will not even support the keyboard in an mainboard that is designed for an AT-type keyboard controller.

That's not really accurate. Every KBC I've come across with ps/2 mouse support would still function in AT mode when installed in an AT motherboard

Reply 13 of 24, by Nexxen

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Ok, just stick it in and see what happens.
Interesting learning the gate a20 thing. I'm getting hooked on stuff... at least I'm starting to understand what that guy recreating a 286 on a breadboard is talking about.

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"One hates the specialty unobtainium parts, the other laughs in greed listing them under a ridiculous price" - kotel studios

Reply 14 of 24, by mkarcher

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maxtherabbit wrote on 2023-10-16, 00:21:

That's not really accurate. Every KBC I've come across with ps/2 mouse support would still function in AT mode when installed in an AT motherboard

Thanks for correcting me: This means, internally the KBC has to detect whether it is inserted into an AT or an PS/2 mainboard, because to keyboard data is wired to a different pin on AT and PS/2 controllers. I can conceive ways how to auto-detect the type of keyboard interface. The KBC then has to use different keyboard interface routines depending on the detection result. I knew that some generic 3rd-party controllers (like the Holtek ones) support both modes, but assumed they need a configuration strap. And I didn't expect the original KBCs on a PS/2 equipped mainboard to be dual-mode at all.

On the other hand, I wouldn't worry that much about the A20/Reset stuff. That one didn't change between AT-type and PS/2-type keybaord controlleres (Note: I'm not talking about actual IBM PS/2 computers, but generic AT-compatible computers with a PS/2 mouse port; original PS/2 hardware might differ). P20 (pin 21) is causing a CPU reset and P21 (pin 22) controls the A20 gate. The command to write custom data to the "output port" (the P2x pins) is D1 since the original AT. On the AT, the complete bit pattern for A20 gate open is "DD", and the complete bit pattern for A20 gate closed is "DF". So you send D1/DD to close the A20 gate and D1/DF to open it. This works on all AT compatible systems. If the actual use of higher bits of the output port don't mix well with the patterns DD and DF, the keyboard controller is going to mask them. The only deviation I know of is that some keyboard controllers implemented the commands DD and DF as shortcuts, making the use of the generic D1 command unnecessessary. This shortcut is not going to work on all KBCs.

Resetting the CPU to leave protected mode is performed by momentarily pulsing P20 low. There is a specific command that can cause pulses on P0..P2, which is Fx. The low 4 bits indicate which pins should be pulsed (0 = pulse low, 1 = don't pulse). To cause a CPU reset, you send the command FE to the keyboard controller. Again, this is universal across all AT-compatible systems.

As both the software interface (commands D1 and FE) and the hardware interface (pins P20 / P21) is identical across all AT compatible machines, I wouldn't expect any A20 trouble when changing the keyboard controller in a standard OEM system (IBM, HP, Compaq or other big brands with custom boards may differ). The only exception could be a BIOS that tries to use the DD/DF shortcuts. I somehow expect that the availability of these shortcuts might be a configurable option in some AMI or Award BIOSes that can be adjusted with the suitable BIOS setup tool like modbin.

Reply 15 of 24, by Nexxen

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If I hit reset, the signal is routed through this "8042" microcontroller.
When reset doesn't work one culprit that must be checked is this mc then.

I found this and it is useful:
https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/v … EK/HT6542B.html

and

https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_headlandHe_2212187

PC#1 Pentium 233 MMX - 98SE
PC#2 PIII-1Ghz - 98SE/W2K

"One hates the specialty unobtainium parts, the other laughs in greed listing them under a ridiculous price" - kotel studios

Reply 16 of 24, by rmay635703

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It’s funny how the old pc repair shops always had a stack of spare keyboard controllers because people were always managing to kill them.

Unfortunate there isn’t a cheap ic you just buy, program and stick in

Reply 17 of 24, by Nexxen

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rmay635703 wrote on 2023-10-16, 17:05:

It’s funny how the old pc repair shops always had a stack of spare keyboard controllers because people were always managing to kill them.

Unfortunate there isn’t a cheap ic you just buy, program and stick in

I'm pretty sure someone made a picoPi project but it costs 30€ to assemble...

Without one the pc can't POST, work at all. You absolutely need one.

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"One hates the specialty unobtainium parts, the other laughs in greed listing them under a ridiculous price" - kotel studios

Reply 18 of 24, by shamino

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rmay635703 wrote on 2023-10-16, 17:05:

It’s funny how the old pc repair shops always had a stack of spare keyboard controllers because people were always managing to kill them.

Unfortunate there isn’t a cheap ic you just buy, program and stick in

Back in the 90s I killed the mouse port on a socket-7 board by plugging the mouse header in backwards.

As luck would have it, that's the only socket-7 board I've ever encountered that still had a socketed keyboard controller chip. At the time I had no idea about this subject though, so it was never fixed. I need to replace that chip.

Reply 19 of 24, by maxtherabbit

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shamino wrote on 2023-10-17, 13:57:
rmay635703 wrote on 2023-10-16, 17:05:

It’s funny how the old pc repair shops always had a stack of spare keyboard controllers because people were always managing to kill them.

Unfortunate there isn’t a cheap ic you just buy, program and stick in

Back in the 90s I killed the mouse port on a socket-7 board by plugging the mouse header in backwards.

As luck would have it, that's the only socket-7 board I've ever encountered that still had a socketed keyboard controller chip. At the time I had no idea about this subject though, so it was never fixed. I need to replace that chip.

Very possible you didn't damage the KBC at all but instead you blew a fuse on the +5V line to the mouse port