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First post, by Rekrul

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What do the games Max Payne, Max Payne 2, Jedi Academy, Rune, Heavy Metal F.A.K.K.2 and American McGee's Alice have in common?

They're all third-person games that use the standard FPS setup to control your character. In other words, the mouse controls turning and aiming while the keyboard controls movement. While each of the games might have been criticized for other elements, I don't recall ever seeing anyone complain that they were too hard to control. When talking about these games, you never hear anyone say "They were good, but a third-person game really needs a different control scheme."

So why is that every game company in the last 5-8 years or so has felt the need to screw with this established control method when making a third-person game?

The standard control scheme for third person games is now that you use the mouse to control the camera, independent of the character, and you turn by moving in the direction you want. Some people will say "So what? It's not any different." But it is. For one thing, manual targeting is virtually impossible, because your character no longer looks/aims where you're pointing the camera. Normal strafing is no longer possible because when you use the left-right movement controls, your character turns in that direction. This also means that you can no longer turn in place. Changing what direction your character is facing requires you to actually take a step in that direction.

To compensate for the fact that you can no longer accurately aim, most third person games include an auto-aim function. Or they have a special aiming mode. Or they feature a target lock that keeps your character turned toward the enemy in question at all times. This prevents you from quickly dealing with other enemies that might be creeping up on you. You either have to cancel the target lock and focus on a different enemy, or cycle the lock through the available enemies until it lands on the one you want.

The first game I encountered that used this control method was Spider-Man: The Movie. Then it showed up in the later Tomb Raider games, and now it's used in the Alice sequel, Madness Returns.

The only perk that this control method offers over the standard FPS controls is that you can view your character from any angle. Big deal! They could have simply added a key command to allow you to rotate the camera. In every other way, it's a downgrade from the controls in games like Max Payne. Unfortunately, game developers have now gotten the idea that that's how a third-person game should be, so now all third person games are saddled with this annoying control method.

Honestly, I thought that most everyone had come to the conclusion that FPS style controls with mouselook were the best way to play 3D games. However it seems like the industry considers them a mistake that needs to be corrected with something better.

I can understand that People found the camera in the original Tomb Raider annoying, since it tended to do strange things, but why did that necessitate having it controlled independently from your character? Would anyone really have complained if Tomb Raider Legend had used the same camera and control method as Max Payne or Jedi Academy? Do you really have a need to watch your character from the side as you run blindly into something you can't even see because of the viewing angle?

Every time I watch someone playing one of these games, 99% of the time, they're basically playing it like an FPS by using the mouse to point where they want to go and then using the forward control to move in that direction. They're constantly adjusting the camera angle, which results in the character zig-zagging all over the place, rather than the fluid movement you get when the mouse actually turns the character.

So can someone please explain to me why all the game companies believe that the camera control needs to be separate from the character, with special new combat modes, instead of just being able to aim/turn with the mouse?

Reply 1 of 11, by robertmo

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that is cause of consoles that allow you to go in any direction with a ministick. So you can look around while running straight. If you had a ministick in left hand and a mouse in right hand that would be best solution.
Also in Tomb Raider, Prince of Persia, Assassin's Creed that involve a lot of climbing you often have camera placed the way you see the location best and that requires camera separation.
TPP games are always more climbing/jumping than FPP shooters hence their control is different.
Also another type is Grand Theft Auto - looking around while driving a car is great 😀

Reply 2 of 11, by jwt27

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I think it's because many games are now first developed for consoles, then later ported to PC without changing anything about the controls. It makes more sense if you have two analog thumbsticks, you use one for moving and one for looking. The 'target lock' mechanism also makes sense on consoles since it is impossible to aim accurately with a thumbstick.

Reply 3 of 11, by Rekrul

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robertmo wrote:

that is cause of consoles that allow you to go in any direction with a ministick. So you can look around while running straight.

Umm, how does that work? The controls are relative to the camera. Meaning, when you push forward, your character runs away from the camera, directly into the screen. Change which way the camera is facing and you change which direction your character will move when you press forward. Unless your character doesn't actually change direction until you stop and then start moving again, which is even more annoying.

And why not have a toggle button that frees the camera so that you can rotate it, but then it snaps back to behind the character when you're done? It's not like console games are afraid of using too many buttons. The Resident Evil/Dino Crisis games make you use two buttons just to shoot!

robertmo wrote:

If you had a ministick in left hand and a mouse in right hand that would be best solution.
Also in Tomb Raider, Prince of Persia, Assassin's Creed that involve a lot of climbing you often have camera placed the way you see the location best and that requires camera separation.

I'll concede that in Heavy Metal, I was sometimes annoyed by the way the camera was automatically placed while climbing, however, there's a simple solution for that; Have the camera locked behind the character like in Max Payne while the character is moving freely, and have it free while climbing ladders or blocks. Normally, you can't turn your character in such situations, so free up the camera. Then when they're back on normal ground, snap the camera back to over their shoulder.

robertmo wrote:

TPP games are always more climbing/jumping than FPP shooters hence their control is different.

Have you played Heavy Metal or Alice? While a lot of the action involves shooting enemies, both also have quite a few platform sections. Heavy Metal's Julie has almost as many climbing moves as Lara Croft, and Alice has whole rooms full of large gears that you have to cross, tilting platforms, etc. I never once thought to myself "Gee, it would be so much easier if I could look at my character from the front while I jump across these blocks." Actually, trying to work your way through jumping puzzles while viewing the character from anywhere but the back seems like more of a hindrance than a help.

jwt27 wrote:

I think it's because many games are now first developed for consoles, then later ported to PC without changing anything about the controls.

Or the save system, half the time.

jwt27 wrote:

It makes more sense if you have two analog thumbsticks, you use one for moving and one for looking.

But how is having to turn your character independent of the camera, a good thing? Imagine the same setup, but when you rotate the camera, the character turns with it, just like in Max Payne. What would be the problem with that?

jwt27 wrote:

The 'target lock' mechanism also makes sense on consoles since it is impossible to aim accurately with a thumbstick.

No argument there. I don't see how people were ever able to play games like Goldeneye on the N64.

It's unfortunate though, that computer owners have to get dumbed down versions of games simply to cater to the inferior consoles.

I was really looking forward to the new Alice game, since I loved the original, but the stupid console style control scheme really kills it for me. 🙁

Reply 4 of 11, by SKARDAVNELNATE

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I have noticed the "press to face" trend lately. I don't have any complaints about it though. In Dead Space the right mouse button is used for aiming so the character swings into the right position if he wasn't already facing the target.

I don't see any difference when moving either. Old method, turn character to face direction and walk forward. New method, swing camera to face direction and walk forward. To turn while walking in either method you hold down forward to move the mouse to face that direction.

Strafing isn't changed either. Hold down the sidestep while keeping a target centered on screen with the mouse. Whether the mouse controls the camera or turns the character directly it's the same input from the player.

I agree that games aren't designed for PC anymore. They're ports from console. I recall some badly done ports a few years ago which had on screen prompts telling the player to press some color coded button but there was no documentation explaining what button on the keyboard that color had been mapped to. So the "mouse to camera" isn't an adaptation of "mouse to character" in PC games. I see it more of a correction of console games where the camera is placed in a fixed position for a given room and the character moved or turned based on the perspective. Try comparing an early Silent Hill or Resident Evil game to the modern FPS and see which is easier to control.

Last edited by SKARDAVNELNATE on 2011-10-22, 20:14. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 5 of 11, by leileilol

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Robertmo's referring to console games' use of absolute control rather than relative, this is what it's about. However absolute on PC with a mouse you can't aim with, makes this kind of suck.

The only advantage to absolute control is to make the character dance.

apsosig.png
long live PCem

Reply 6 of 11, by Rekrul

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SKARDAVNELNATE wrote:

I have noticed the "press to face" trend lately. I don't have any complaints about it though. In Dead Space the right mouse button is used for aiming so the character swings into the right position if he wasn't already facing the target.

Personally, I dislike when games do stuff like that automatically for you. Like when the game puts up arrows to tell you which way the enemy is or shows when they're in range. It's like they think the player is too stupid to figure these things out for themselves. Sure, I sometimes get frustrated trying to keep track of a fast-moving enemy or trying to find my way to the end of the level, but that doesn't mean I want the game to lead me by the nose.

SKARDAVNELNATE wrote:

I don't see any difference when moving either. Old method, turn character to face direction and walk forward. New method, swing camera to face direction and walk forward. To turn while walking in either method you hold down forward to move the mouse to face that direction.

If there's so little difference, why did they need to change it in the first place?

SKARDAVNELNATE wrote:

Strafing isn't changed either. Hold down the sidestep while keeping a target centered on screen with the mouse. Whether the mouse controls the camera or turns the character directly it's the same input from the player.

From what I've seen, that only works when combat mode is active, which keeps you facing the enemy regardless of what moves you make.

SKARDAVNELNATE wrote:

I agree that games aren't designed for PC anymore. They're ports from console. I recall some badly done ports a few years ago which had on screen prompts telling the player to press some color coded button but there was no documentation explaining what button on the keyboard that color had been mapped to.

The third Thief game had to have every level broken up into separate load zones to accommodate the smaller memory of the Xbox. That's supposedly also the reason that there were no swimming sections and that using rope arrows to climb to higher locations were omitted.

SKARDAVNELNATE wrote:

So the "mouse to camera" isn't an adaptation of "mouse to character" in PC games. I see it more of a correction of console games where the camera is placed in a fixed position for a given room and the character moved or turned based on the perspective. Try comparing an early Silent Hill or Resident Evil game to the modern FPS and see which is easier to control.

Don't get me started on survival horror games and fixed camera angles! It's not just the early games either, virtually every "survival horror" game since then has used the same fixed camera angel system, even when the engine is actually rendering the entire game world in 3D. It's stupid.

In any case, those games are more of a separate category to the 3D games I'm talking about. Even if what you said was true, there's still no valid reason they had to uncouple the camera and character movement. I know I keep bringing them up, but was the camera a problem in Max Payne or Jedi Academy, or Alice? It never was for me. On the other hand, the times I've tried to play Spider-Man: The Movie, it just feels awkward.

leileilol wrote:

Robertmo's referring to console games' use of absolute control rather than relative, this is what it's about.

You mean where pushing forward makes the character walk forward, even if they're facing the camera? I HATE that! The Resident Evil and Dino Crisis games are like that and it's incredibly confusing.

Reply 7 of 11, by SKARDAVNELNATE

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Rekrul wrote:

Personally, I dislike when games do stuff like that automatically for you. Like when the game puts up arrows to tell you which way the enemy is or shows when they're in range. It's like they think the player is too stupid to figure these things out for themselves.

Oh, I didn't mean it automatically faces the enemy for you. Just that the character would swing into position to match the direction you moved the camera to. It could have been the opposite direction so that the character quickly turns his back to to the enemy if that was what you wanted.

Rekrul wrote:

If there's so little difference, why did they need to change it in the first place?

Like I stated above, this method didn't originate from the PC style of control where movement influences the camera. It originated from the console style where the camera influences movement. The reason it's used so much now is because games aren't designed for the PC anymore. They're designed for consoles first with PC as an after thought.

Rekrul wrote:

From what I've seen, that only works when combat mode is active, which keeps you facing the enemy regardless of what moves you make.

Using Dead Space as an example again, with the weapon drawn the character and camera move as one. There is no moment when you're locked-on to a target or forced to follow it. Actually I can't think of a PC game I've played that features a target lock though I know it's quite prevalent in console games like Silent Hill, and especially in Metroid Prime.

Rekrul wrote:

Don't get me started on survival horror games and fixed camera angles! It's not just the early games either, virtually every "survival horror" game since then has used the same fixed camera angel system, even when the engine is actually rendering the entire game world in 3D. It's stupid.

That reminds me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaZ_HhH8jz0#t=1m58s

Reply 8 of 11, by robertmo

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Rekrul wrote:
leileilol wrote:

Robertmo's referring to console games' use of absolute control rather than relative, this is what it's about.

You mean where pushing forward makes the character walk forward, even if they're facing the camera? I HATE that! The Resident Evil and Dino Crisis games are like that and it's incredibly confusing.

You have more features hence more complication - that is what your brain is for.
You could also say that Heavy Metal is confusing cause you would like all games to be like Virtua Cop.

Reply 9 of 11, by Rekrul

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I forgot about this thread...

SKARDAVNELNATE wrote:

Using Dead Space as an example again, with the weapon drawn the character and camera move as one. There is no moment when you're locked-on to a target or forced to follow it. Actually I can't think of a PC game I've played that features a target lock though I know it's quite prevalent in console games like Silent Hill, and especially in Metroid Prime.

Tomb Raider: Angel of Darkness had a target lock. If you had a weapon drawn, Lara would turn to face the nearest enemy. This greatly restricts your freedom of movement because it's like you're tethered to them by an invisible cord. You want to go straight left, but instead you go in an arc because she keeps turning as you move. In the earlier games, she would stay locked on a target, but it didn't actually turn the character.

Spider-Man was another game, although I think that was a Playstation port. In the first fight with Venom, he keeps appearing and disappearing. Every time he appears, you instantly turn to face him. Of course that game also restricted your turning to 45 degree increments. Not to mention the ton of other bugs.

SKARDAVNELNATE wrote:

I love it! That's exactly what playing those fixed camera angle games is like. One wrong step and the camera switches, reversing all the directions.

robertmo wrote:

You have more features hence more complication - that is what your brain is for.
You could also say that Heavy Metal is confusing cause you would like all games to be like Virtua Cop.

Basic movements in Heavy Metal are intuitive. You want to turn right, you move the mouse to the right. You want to move forward, you press forward.

On the other hand, if you're playing a Resident Evil or Dino Crisis style game, and your character is facing the screen, you have to press left to turn right and you have to press forward to move toward you. That's the exact opposite of intuitive.

And why do you have to have separate controls to draw your weapon and to fire it? What's wrong with one control that draws and fires your weapon? Or if that would be too slow, just have the character carrying it all the time. I'm pretty sure that if these situations were real, the person wouldn't be putting their weapon away after every encounter.

Not to mention the "Do you want to take this item?" prompts. I wouldn't have hit the pick up control if I didn't want it! Or the "Do you really want to use this item?" prompts. No, I just went into the inventory, cycled through the contents, selected the item and hit use, just for the hell of it.