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First post, by Aui

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This is an opinion piece. I’m not trying to diminish other people’s efforts to remember games from a bygone time or make them accessibly and known for the next generation – quite the contrary – I hope to get some deeper and better understanding.

Recently we get a lot of retrospectives and replays of older classic games. This is either done by people who revisit titles or play them for the first time, because they are “classics”. Quite often the evaluation of such old titles is much less favorable if people have not played the game during its original release. On the other hand, people who praise an old game may have strongly biased views and are automatically guilty of nostalgia. So, what I want is to understand this discrepancy (and as the title says – I’m not sure its nostalgia).

As an example, I will review the review of Eye of the Beholder by the Dos Game Club Podcast -Episode E072 (remember that I’m not going against their efforts. I like the podcast and the idea of a shared community replay is especially great. Fate of Atlantis is on the menu right now – please go and check it out!).
As I understand it, none of the reviewers had played the game when it came out, but all played it prior to the modern review. And their evaluation was overall, not very favorable. What’s making this so unfortunate is the fact that during the review it becomes very clear that they don’t seem to have been able to immerse themselves into the incredible atmosphere of this intricate and vast dungeon. For some reason the magic does not unfold and they seem to be a bit at a loss themselves. In addition, they miss large parts of the lore and the story. The stone gates, the betrayal of Shinda, the fact that you can use the Wand of Silvias, (made from the eyestalk of a Beholder and the only thing he fears) to defeat Xanathar was completely missed. They object that you get lost easily in the game – I would argue that it is necessary to get lost and the use of an automap tool may actually hurt the experience more than it will help. The review draws comparison between EOB and (of all games) Myst. I really feel a bit bewildered. This game was (and if played correctly perhaps still can be) an incredible adrenaline rush. So the question is – quite presumptuous - how do you play a game the right way?

When I played the game (long ago) I could not get past the sewers for weeks. When I finally solved the puzzle, I got lost in the dwarven halls for a long time. To survive the spider levels was a particularly grueling task, but once you prevail and especially once you finally learn to cure poison – it feels like and real empowerment of the party and not just like a statistical level up. The halls of the Drow felt claustrophobic with the deep earthen tones and the graves of the skeleton kings like right out of Tolkien’s Barrow-Downs with their rich loot. The minimalistic sound which just rhythmically signs you someone is approaching or slowly moving away from your position is like a constant alert in the back of the player’s mind. The sheer fright when you saw a mind flayer from afar, knowing that it can paralyze your entire group from a large distance. Often you simply had to quit, because the solution to a puzzle was just not obvious (it often is solved almost immediately when you start up the game a day later). Well, there are another 100 things I like about this game and I could go on but the point is that it seems I have played a completely different game.

Now there are a few arguments that are often raised at that point. One would be that nobody has time to voluntarily get lost in a maze when an automap is just available. But so is a complete walkthrough and a playthrough and a speedrun - completely missing what this whole game is about.
The paradoxical fact is that you voluntarily need to allow yourself to “waste” time and get lost in the dungeon and play it slow. This is what creates a tangible experience and a lasting impression. Similar to reading a book you can’t just skip chapters or read a summary but have to commit yourself. Playing it too quick may get you to the end but you will be missing the point altogether and therefore really waste your time.

On a similar note I think that the “lack of commitment” (well that does not quite sound right) was also the true downfall of the adventure genre. As soon as you start taking shortcuts and looking up hints and online walkthrough the whole experience collapses and turns into frustration.

So – in addition to the games themselves do we also need to preserve the culture and customs how to play them properly ?

Last edited by Aui on 2024-04-19, 01:53. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 1 of 47, by Namrok

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Aui wrote on 2024-04-18, 13:43:

So – in addition to the games themselves do we also need to preserve the culture and customs how to play them properly ?

Probably! You look through old issues of Computer Gaming World, and half the ads for gridders like EOB show hand drawn paper maps next to the game box! If you aren't making one yourself, you are playing it "wrong". I think a lot of manuals even strongly suggested you make paper maps too, sometimes with a sheet of grid paper you could photocopy.

I remember playing the first Phantasy Star many years ago, having never played it before. It was such a delightful love letter to Ultima and Wizardry. Which is to say, it had Ultima's penchant for leaving a breadcrumb trail of hints about what to do next in random NPC dialog you should probably write down, as well as having sometimes wildly convoluted first person dungeon exploring with party based combat. Being familiar with both styles of RPG, I took to it naturally. At the same time, I could absolutely imagine a person ignorant of both, confused that there isn't a minimap with a trail of quest markers on it for them, leading them around by the nose to advance the game.

It kind of reminds me how Zelda: Breath of the Wild had to have a mini tutorial about making your own map markers, and how you need to explore on your own. Because now the expectation is an Ubisoft style minimap with icons for every point of interaction.

When I play Doom these days with modern mouse and keyboard controls, it does sometimes feel like I'm "cheating". I remember playing the game, keyboard only, default controls as a kid. It was hard as a fuck! There was no circle strafing. At least not that I could pull off. You had to hold down what? The alt key? But then as long as you were side stepping, you weren't turning. I'm not sure how people who were good at Doom back then actually played.

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Reply 2 of 47, by DosFreak

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You are likely seeing the difference between those who play games to play a game and those who 'play' games to review games. You also have those who dig deep into mechanics and lore of a game versus those who 'just' play the game.

Even those who play games to play them may have interest in only certain aspects and may be turned off by others. People have different knowledge, perspectives. Beliefs, turnoffs, turnons, etc.

I don't watch video reviews, let's plays, etc so I am not tracking if there is a trend or fad in these kinds of reviews. I'm just a guy that plays games from start to finish attempting to experience all content in one play through but I'm not going to delve into minutia, grinding , or bs.

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Reply 3 of 47, by Sombrero

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Aui wrote on 2024-04-18, 13:43:

This game was (and if played correctly perhaps still can be) an incredible adrenaline rush. So the question is – quite presumptuous - how do you play a game the right way?

There is no objective right way, just your own subjective way colored by your own preferences.

There's a long list of games I played back in the day that I still love to this day for that awesome combination of nostalgia and finding them still fun to play, but I wouldn't even bat an eye if someone who has never played them would find them bad due to numerous possible reasons. That's just how it goes, no "you're playing it wrong!" help there. You can't force people to enjoy games or anything else for that matter "in your way".

Plenty of games I personally can't get into out there no matter how beloved they are. To keep using Eye of the Beholder as an example I personally find it boring just because it has no music, that's all it takes for me. We like what we like.

Reply 4 of 47, by BitWrangler

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Everyone should be forced to play text adventures and ascii dungeon crawlers until they can see stuff in their head, then be allowed to graduate to graphics 😜

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Reply 5 of 47, by darry

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One thing to consider is that a lot of us experienced the games we remember fondly when we were children or teenagers. Our perception of things, our motivations and priorities were different because of that.

We also had fewer options in that, 30+ years ago, there were not as many computer game options accessible nor had there been multiple decades of prior art to shape our perceptions. Internet access and the passing of time changed that.

Reply 6 of 47, by Joseph_Joestar

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darry wrote on 2024-04-18, 14:57:

One thing to consider is that a lot of us experienced the games we remember fondly when we were children or teenagers. Our perception of things, our motivations and priorities were different because of that.

I can attest to this.

There are some games that I really liked as a kid, but I just can't get into them nowadays. In most cases, it's because the UI feels too archaic to me, and I can't be bothered with the jankiness. Other times, I simply don't enjoy the gameplay as much as I used to.

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Reply 7 of 47, by Ensign Nemo

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I think part of the problem is that technology has had a big impact on our patience and attention spans. Older games were made when people had fewer distractions and were willing to stick with a game that had a bigger learning curve or required more work on their part. I'm slowly trying to wean myself off the Internet, as I feel like I'd have more time for my hobbies if I spent less time online. Yes, I realize the irony of writing that while online (-:

Reply 8 of 47, by Shponglefan

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Aui wrote on 2024-04-18, 13:43:

As I understand it, none of the reviewers had played the game when it came out, but all played it prior to the modern review. And their evaluation was overall, not very favorable.

I was curious about the age of the individuals here. In listening to the introductions, it sounds like EoB came out prior to a lot of their gaming experiences. For example, one of the hosts hadn't even heard of EoB and apparently started playing these games when they were already fully 3D. Another person mentions their first dungeon crawler was Ultima Underworld which also came out after EoB.

Putting that in perspective, it makes sense that they'd probably have a less favorable response to EoB than someone who started gaming earlier.

You'd likely have similar situations with anyone starting with earlier games in any genre. Imagine someone who grew up in the post-Doom or post-Quake era of first person shooters going back and playing Wolfenstein 3D for the first time. They probably wouldn't like it much either.

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Reply 9 of 47, by BitWrangler

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What annoys me, is when a game (or a TV Show etc) was the first or among the first to do a certain thing, which contributed hugely to it's popularity, BUT was copied ever after, such that it is a cliche, and now people hate on the original for being .... unoriginal.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 10 of 47, by Jo22

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darry wrote on 2024-04-18, 14:57:

One thing to consider is that a lot of us experienced the games we remember fondly when we were children or teenagers. Our perception of things, our motivations and priorities were different because of that.

The perception part is something I can relate to.
I remember, when I was little, the world around me felt more vibrant, more intense. My senses were more sensitive, as well. I've noticed the little things.
Including the small variations of tone in people's voice when their mood had changed.

In terms of games, "wasting" time actually was something to look forward too.
There was no interest in efficiency and schedules.

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In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

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Reply 11 of 47, by Shponglefan

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BitWrangler wrote on 2024-04-18, 17:40:

What annoys me, is when a game (or a TV Show etc) was the first or among the first to do a certain thing, which contributed hugely to it's popularity, BUT was copied ever after, such that it is a cliche, and now people hate on the original for being .... unoriginal.

Also known as the Seinfeld is Unfunny trope: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/OnceOr … on/LiveActionTV

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Reply 12 of 47, by Sombrero

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Shponglefan wrote on 2024-04-18, 17:16:

You'd likely have similar situations with anyone starting with earlier games in any genre. Imagine someone who grew up in the post-Doom or post-Quake era of first person shooters going back and playing Wolfenstein 3D for the first time. They probably wouldn't like it much either.

This definitely can be a thing.

The world is full of people who like the first Diablo more than the sequel, but as someone who played Diablo II first I found it impossible to enjoy the first one because of the one mouse click -> one attack controls. I also remember trying Dune 2 at some point during the 90s after playing Command & Conquer, didn't go too well either.

Clunky controls, archaic player hostile game design and lack of music are things I have hard time tolerating, no matter how revolutionary and amazing the game was when it was released. There are couple games out there I really wish I'd had the chance to try much sooner than I did for I'm pretty confident I would have really enjoyed them earlier but just couldn't anymore when I finally did get to play them.

Reply 13 of 47, by Ensign Nemo

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BitWrangler wrote on 2024-04-18, 17:40:

What annoys me, is when a game (or a TV Show etc) was the first or among the first to do a certain thing, which contributed hugely to it's popularity, BUT was copied ever after, such that it is a cliche, and now people hate on the original for being .... unoriginal.

Another thing for me is that I can become more aware of things that I never noticed or cared about in the past. I read a lot of science fiction, especially the older stuff. A lot of the writers from the golden age were self taught (sci-fi was looked down upon by the literary snobs), so these books were often written in ways that are considered bad practice. For example, it's usually better to show rather than tell. I never noticed these things until I took my first writing course in university. Now, many of the things to avoid stand out to me like a sore thumb. I'm not sure if I would still enjoy some of the books that I loved when I was younger.

For tv shows, I can't watch anything with a laugh track. I just find them to be really irritating and they ruin the whole show for me. It's a shame because there are some shows that I want to revisit, like Red Dwarf, but I just can't enjoy them anymore.

I bet that many people have noticed the same things in lectures. Once someone points out that the lecturer has a nervous tick or repetitive habit, it's hard not to focus on it. It's interesting how someone pointing something out can really change how you experience something.

Reply 14 of 47, by darry

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Shponglefan wrote on 2024-04-18, 18:47:
BitWrangler wrote on 2024-04-18, 17:40:

What annoys me, is when a game (or a TV Show etc) was the first or among the first to do a certain thing, which contributed hugely to it's popularity, BUT was copied ever after, such that it is a cliche, and now people hate on the original for being .... unoriginal.

Also known as the Seinfeld is Unfunny trope: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/OnceOr … on/LiveActionTV

Ironically, I did not get the humor in Seinfeld at all during its original airing. It has since grown a bit on me, but not much.

I still do find funny most of what I did back then, however.

Reply 15 of 47, by StriderTR

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-04-18, 15:09:
darry wrote on 2024-04-18, 14:57:

One thing to consider is that a lot of us experienced the games we remember fondly when we were children or teenagers. Our perception of things, our motivations and priorities were different because of that.

I can attest to this.

There are some games that I really liked as a kid, but I just can't get into them nowadays. In most cases, it's because the UI feels too archaic to me, and I can't be bothered with the jankiness. Other times, I simply don't enjoy the gameplay as much as I used to.

This sums it up for me as well. I play a LOT of older games, and there are some I loved playing in my younger years that I have simply lost my taste for now that I'm much older. It also works in reverse, some games that I didn't like, or didn't think I'd like back when they were new, have become new favorites.

Lastly, for me, it not so much is how a game is played by anyone, but what's enjoyable for me. In fact, one of the most important parts of the experience doesn't come from the game itself, but how I interact with it. Specifically, the controller or other hardware I use. That's probably why I have such a large collection of controllers, the most common ones I use seen below. 😜

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Reply 16 of 47, by Shponglefan

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-04-18, 15:09:

There are some games that I really liked as a kid, but I just can't get into them nowadays. In most cases, it's because the UI feels too archaic to me, and I can't be bothered with the jankiness. Other times, I simply don't enjoy the gameplay as much as I used to.

It is blasphemy that I find Duke Nukem 3D has fallen into this category?

It was my favorite shooter of the 90s, but I find it just hasn't aged well either in terms of gameplay nor content.

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Reply 17 of 47, by chinny22

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-04-18, 15:09:

There are some games that I really liked as a kid, but I just can't get into them nowadays. In most cases, it's because the UI feels too archaic to me, and I can't be bothered with the jankiness. Other times, I simply don't enjoy the gameplay as much as I used to.

This is what I have found.
When getting into this hobby I was all about the dos games. I love the art, music the overall feel, platform games especially.
Truth is I hardly play them instead playing something from the WIn9x era.
I think that's my nostalgia overriding reality.

It's also hard to go backwards. As hardware improved it meant games could be improved. The Wolf3d/Doom/Quake comparison is a good example.
I started with Doom, I went back and tried to play Wolf 3D, I tried to like Wolf 3D but couldn't get into it. I can appreciate it. Not saying it's a bad game, it's fun for about 30 minutes. but cant keep me engrossed like Doom which I still play today.

I would say it's not just games though. TV shows and lesser extent movies also suffer the same thing.
Not many people go back more then a decade or 2 from when they were born.
eg I was born in 1980 so 60's shows would still be rerun eg Bewitched, I Dream of Jeannie, old Warner Brothers cartoons but I rarely watch anything black and white unlike my parents and I doubt my kids will go much earlier then the 90's

Reply 18 of 47, by Aui

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I'm just a guy that plays games from start to finish attempting to experience all content in one play

Similar approach. However, I’m also interested in the unique narrative ways and capabilities of video games. How well they can immerse you and create a meaningful experience.

...someone ...would find them bad due to numerous possible reasons

This is not what I’m trying to contest. If you don’t like Dungeon Crawlers or high fantasy in general or don’t enjoy games without music, then there is no argument. I also can relate to cases where you loved a game in the past but don’t enjoy it anymore (for whatever reason). That’s an equally valid case for not liking a game.

One thing to consider is that a lot of us experienced the games we remember fondly when we were children or teenagers...

I also agree here. There are memories made at a younger age that have had a lasting impact. In some cases it can be even better to let them remain memories instead of trying to replicate them. And yes – that would probably be nostalgia. But again not quite what I’m trying to figure out.

I will give another example – if you want to go to watch an opera, it is highly advisable to read the content of the piece in advance. In many cases the coloration and expression makes the content incomprehensible (if it isn’t in Italian anyway). Modern theaters often project “subtitles” above or below the stage to mitigate the problem. Yet that is not holding people off to watch a 200 year old piece and the opera has a unique way to create a highly emotional experience.
Likewise, I suspect a lot of younger people would not know how to correctly approach more involved older computer games. If you want to play a game like “Fate of Atlantis” you may just download it and get started. Now you are clicking for 5 minutes on some random items in NY and get stuck. So why not check online what to do. Ok – how in all the world could I have known to move those crates (keeps reading the walkthrough) etc… After another hour of playing it this way it is clear that this game is no fun at all. Likewise the experience and illusion of being trapped in a maze with deadly opponents and traps and riddles is spoiled if you play it too fast or with an ultraconvenient automap or skip 90% of the content as done in a speedrun (I know that im taking quite a purist stance here).

You'd likely have similar situations with anyone starting with earlier games in any genre...

Yes, but I will give you a counterexample. A little while ago I decided to play “Impossible mission” which is a C64 title before my time. Why? Because I read that it is a true classic. Looking at the screenshots I was skeptical. However, the game truly lives up to its legacy and I had a blast. You can think of it as an early predecessor of Flashback or Prince. One of the quirks is that the involved puzzles are unique each time – so there is no way to cheat. This can cause frustration along the way but after finally beating the game it was a great and lasting experience. So clearly – this game stands on its own regardless of its age.

As for the case in the review I would even assume the reviewers wanted to like the game more but could not. They refer a lot to part 2 (which is also great) and LoL (which in my opinion is great but clearly not as great as EOB) but seemingly had a difficult time with the first part.

The general concept of “Retro” makes it seem that games (contrary to books) have a technical expiry date. A consequence of such a concept would be that games in general are getting better all the time. Now this is where it is getting interesting because I think a lot of modern gaming resembles more of a slot machine parlor and these games are in no way capable of creating a satisfying experience or telling a good story in a meaningful way.

Reply 19 of 47, by Fujoshi-hime

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-04-18, 15:09:

There are some games that I really liked as a kid, but I just can't get into them nowadays. In most cases, it's because the UI feels too archaic to me, and I can't be bothered with the jankiness. Other times, I simply don't enjoy the gameplay as much as I used to.

Also some games we're not great or even just bad, but we played them because, well, they were the games we had access too. Unlike today where you can access a near unlimited range of games both old and new so you can cherry pick and play the true 'Timeless Classics'.