Jo22 wrote on 2024-05-03, 16:32:

640x400 256c was even more monitor friendly than 800x600.

Not on early SVGA cards.
256-color modes on such cards often worked at below-VGA frequencies, thus requiring a 15+ kHz multisync monitor - Re: VGA cards with little RAM (256KB): Why were they made in first place

Grzyb wrote on 2024-05-03, 17:32:

Jo22 wrote on 2024-05-03, 16:32:

640x400 256c was even more monitor friendly than 800x600.

Not on early SVGA cards.
256-color modes on such cards often worked at below-VGA frequencies, thus requiring a 15+ kHz multisync monitor - Re: VGA cards with little RAM (256KB): Why were they made in first place

Hm. I guess the Trident 8800 was more of an exception here? 🤷‍♂️

It wasn't much of a consumer card, also.
It had "text in a window" feature and could zoom. It was more like a modified Super EGA card, maybe, overall.

I was thinking of cards like the OAK OTI-37c or the Paradise cards (PVGA1A/B/C and WD90cxx) here.

I mean, the more modern Cirrus hards seem to have issues with supporting VBE mode 100h, too, so 640x400 256c support didn't always work.
Even modern cards have their issues with it, because they don't realize mode 100h was a thing, too.

But 486 laptops could support that mode quite well, on other hand. An internal LCD can do 640x400 256c more likely than it can do 800x600 16c.
It comes to mind, because my Compaq laptop had an WD90C24 or WD90C31 (have to check).
The Windows 2.03 Paradiese driver (640x400 256c) from the 80s still works on this thing.

Edit: I don't mean to argue, there arw indeed some problems.
It's still a bit puzzling to me that mode 13h was so omnipresent all time.

I mean, I remember sitting there in the mid-90s on my PC playing some advertisement games, while thinking by myself "why are those game graphics are so rough all the time?"

This was when I still had my 286 and that 14" IBM monitor.
Years later, I was almost being shocked when I saw retro reviews in modern PC magazines.

I do especially remember how Sam&Max Hit The Road did look dead ugly in those digital screenshots.
Totally different to how I remembered it (I had played the demo years before, I think).

If game developers just had bothered to support 640x400 256c..
Classic games wouldn't look half as bad now. On an LCD, about 640x480 and up look way more eye-friendly than 320x200.
640x400 would have looked not nearly as poor.

I don't really have much to add other than the fact it surprises me there's anyhting at all that uses SVGA and still works on a 286. Why are you looking specifically for stuff for a 286?

btw:
While not a game, Deluxe Paint should work on a 286 and support SVGA.

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2024-05-03, 18:39:

I don't really have much to add other than the fact it surprises me there's anyhting at all that uses SVGA and still works on a 286. Why are you looking specifically for stuff for a 286?

btw:
While not a game, Deluxe Paint should work on a 286 and support SVGA.

Why is that ? OS/2 1.1 to 1.3 support 1024x768 in 256c out-of-box on a 286. Since 1987. 😃
All it needs is an 8514/A compatible adapter.
Third-party drivers can be installed, too, though they're a bit hard to find these days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye122zKjLZ0

AutoSketch v2/v3, AutoCAD r9-r13 (and Autodesk 3D Studio?) may support Super VGA just fine on an XT, even.

All it needs is an ADI driver, I think.
SVADI is a VBE to ADI library, essentially. It's all 16-Bit, I believe.
Uses VBE 1.x, at least, which is 16-Bit compatible.

Here's AutoSketch (DOS) in HD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6e3FzI9Tuw

Edited.

I think the fact that some games run on a 286 and have SVGA support is just a side-effect of that they were 16-bit games. No one was buying SVGA to put on a 286 when SVGA was cheap enough to buy to play some games. SVGA was popular when 386 was mainstream. It was around when Windows 3 was getting popular, so it was natural for people to want better screens for it. Games eventually caught up to using it.

I used the 286 on a monochrome monitor. Those who were lucky enough to have good color were using EGA/VGA cards, probably at 320x200, for games. If you got to the early 90s and really wanted to try SVGA, it'd be hard to believe for games on a 286. It may be possible someone did it though. But by then the 286 was undesirable, even among office types running Windows 3. I ended up with a whole pile of 286s around then... And so, not many games would have targeted to run at slow speeds. So if you were going to go all out to get the new monitor, you were probably looking at a 386. That's what we did.

@Jo22: Sounds like that stuff would run slow as heck on such systems. 😀

Jo22 wrote on 2024-05-03, 18:50:

AutoSketch v2/v3, AutoCAD r9-r13 (and Autodesk 3D Studio?) may support Super VGA just fine on an XT, even.

AutoCAD R13 needs 386, and I suspect so do some earlier versions.

But yes - while games were late to adopt SVGA, GUIs and applications did it early enough to provide plenty of use on a 286, and even on an 8088.

Grzyb wrote on 2024-05-03, 15:40:

OK, but what SVGA? 256 KB or 512 KB? Color monitor, or monochrome? […]
Show full quote

appiah4 wrote on 2024-05-03, 14:45:

286-16 with SVGA was actually a very common configuration where I live.

OK, but what SVGA? 256 KB or 512 KB? Color monitor, or monochrome?

In my bubble, 286 PCs were office workhorses - their users didn't care about games or multimedia.
VGA was rather common, but it was basic 256 KB cards - probably also capable of 800 x 600 x 16, therefore SVGA in theory! - but coupled with cheap monochrome monitors that wouldn't go above 640 x 480.
Another factor hindering the adoption of SVGA was that it required installation of card-specific drivers for every program - in effect, even those who had SVGA, were often lazy and using it as plain VGA.

They were mostly 256KB cards sold with 14" SVGA monitors. Monochrome SVGA monitors were not uncommon and actually preferred for office use.

Well yes, high resolution was available, even before SVGA was standard. But this was expensive at that time, when the 286 would have been popular enough. Games picked up more color first, then a bit later, higher resolutions. The 286 kind of missed that boat in favor of the already cheaper 386+ systems. Looking back yeah it was possible, but we certainly did not run these kind of games on them. For us, we were using monochrome still on 286.

Peter Swinkels wrote on 2024-05-03, 19:39:

@Jo22: Sounds like that stuff would run slow as heck on such systems. 😀

It depends, I suppose. CAD programs really want to see an x87 or Weitek co-processor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGCUErENKBA

But generally speaking, a 286 isn't that bad of a proccesor.
I've ran already ran my copy of Shantae in no$gmb and it was playable.
Or, I've decoded some SSTV picture wit it.

Examples:

SSTV (Standard VGA, didn't figure out DIP switch settings yet for SVGA at this point): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=014bAB507_Q

FLI Animations on Hercules (small 286 pizza box PC w/ HGC on-board): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFB2M9l9g8c

FLC Animations on Hercules (small 286 pizza box PC w/ HGC on-board):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydEdC_QiV-U

Fractal Paint on Hercules: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsFQD0eNg2w

Mountains Fractal program: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUL-LtBTkKY

Here's Digger, a DOS game that uses 640x480 16c and runs smoothly on a 286.
Played it many times way back in the 90s on my 286-12. Originates from KC85 platform?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37BA-uh31ro

Hercules was/is very slow by nature. It could slow down a 386/486 PC, even.

Main difference between FLC and FLI is that FLI is 320x200 256c. FLCs can be of higher resolution.

Jo22 wrote on 2024-05-03, 21:17:

Here's Digger, a DOS game that uses 640x480 16c and runs smoothly on a 286.
Played it many times way back in the 90s on my 286-12. Originates from KC85 platform?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37BA-uh31ro

I had to look up what you meant by this, because that is not classic digger for sure. This is a VGA game, which is more contemporary with the late 286 era than SVGA. So I would say, it is plausible there are a fair more number of games on VGA that are relatively simple like this one that run fine on the 286. I can believe some people still did this in the 90s. But it was quickly superseded by SVGA on better machines.

I think the / my Links386 thoughts have been somehow been approved:

There is a link386.bat stating „if exists links386.swp delete…“
So indeed it is using the rarely known dos extender swap functionality. Haha it’s the only game I know (maybe exists) that uses this feature just to say running with 2mb of Ram while using an extender

the3dfxdude wrote on 2024-05-03, 21:27:

Jo22 wrote on 2024-05-03, 21:17:

Here's Digger, a DOS game that uses 640x480 16c and runs smoothly on a 286.
Played it many times way back in the 90s on my 286-12. Originates from KC85 platform?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37BA-uh31ro

I had to look up what you meant by this, because that is not classic digger for sure. This is a VGA game, which is more contemporary with the late 286 era than SVGA. So I would say, it is plausible there are a fair more number of games on VGA that are relatively simple like this one that run fine on the 286. I can believe some people still did this in the 90s. But it was quickly superseded by SVGA on better machines.

Hi, yes, it's not the the Windmill Digger, but rather a Boulder Dash like game.
This Digger originated on the KC85/2 home computer platform from GDR, in 1988, behind the iron curtain.
I didn't know that at the time, though. I've played the DOS port in the mid-90s. The jewels are nicely animated in both versions, though.
Reminds me a bit of The Great Giana Sisters on C64 (a bit before my time, as well).

Other 640x480 VGA games, commercial titles, that come to mind are Zeppelin - Giants of the Sky and Princess Maker 2, I think.
Those games had been featured in those Bestseller Games magazines way back in the 90s in my place.
These games could also run on a 286, I think. But they're not SVGA, strictly speaking, of course.

Then there are those Visual Novel games also. Many should be 16-Bit. Or other J-games like Marble Cooking, Rusty and so on..
But I don't like to, um, go too much into detail here. People must be thinking I'm a bit weird already. 😅

Long story short, it's just that those genres are high-res/low-colour often.
Something I can relate to. Because of Windows 3.1 games, high quality text-adventures and simulations (SimCity type, flight sims, Star Trek sims etc).

These lesser popular games were a bit of a parallel world back then, an opposition to the commercial MCGA (VGA) games using mode 13h.

Speaking of mode 13h games, in my place back then advertising games were a thing, too. Nothing for serious gamers, but us casual gamers, maybe.
These games were special in sofar, because they often broke conventional rules in some way, which made them entertaining.

They also borrowed ideas from popular games such as Desert Strike (Helicopter Mission comes to mind) or Lucas Arts games,
while simultaneously using an, um, a more local scene for the events. Not sure how to explain. It's weird a bit.

Normally, commercial point&click games take place in the states, the amazon, china, space (the dig) or
some popular or distant place and not in an average village/city of your own little country.

Being a product of advertising companies, third-party developers and being backed by major companies
or federal agencies (like environmental agency etc), they had done some whacky things, at times.

The dialoges that could be selected were funny, if not straight away impudent and silly.
On the other hand, the quality was there, too. Graphics, music and game engines weren't bad.

It's as if the game artists had a huge fun being allowed to go wild at the time. ^^
Still, a lot of planning must have been involved, too, I assume.

The second important platform besides PC was Amiga, interestingly.
These ad games continued to support the Amiga when it was essentially gone already (on paper).

I didn't know that by the time, unfortunately. Most PC shareware CD-ROMs apparently didn't contain Amiga software or mentioned emulators,
such as Fellow, at least. No idea why. Enough storage space was available for sure on those CD-ROMs.

But that's another story, I guess.
I still wonder if other countries had similar ad games of their own..

Edit:

Marco wrote on 2024-05-05, 19:22:

I think the / my Links386 thoughts have been somehow been approved:

There is a link386.bat stating „if exists links386.swp delete…“
So indeed it is using the rarely known dos extender swap functionality. Haha it’s the only game I know (maybe exists) that uses this feature just to say running with 2mb of Ram while using an extender

That's interesting. I didn't know about this.
I only know that some games (or applications, rather) had supported 16-Bit Protected Mode Extenders (16-Bit DPMI).

Edit: Formatting fixed (on PC). Also sorry for the long posting, just realized how long it is.