SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby 5u3 » 2013-6-21 @ 21:25

Tadaa!
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sorry for the crappy quality (phone-camera)
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby keropi » 2013-6-21 @ 21:34

^ awesome! can you test a GAL?

also the pic is very nice, not crappy at all...!
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby carlostex » 2013-6-21 @ 21:55

Great!!
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby 5u3 » 2013-6-21 @ 22:12

keropi wrote:^ awesome! can you test a GAL?

Unfortunately no. I don't have the SAA chips and currently not much time to do any tests.
However, I could send the card to someone (preferable within Europe) for testing.
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby keropi » 2013-6-21 @ 22:25

^ I have both gal/saa chips, if you don't find anyone closer I can test it :)
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby vetz » 2013-6-21 @ 22:31

I also think that finding a card with DSP 2.02 and the CT1336A with the original CMS chips should be on the list. I will certainly be on the lookout!
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby Mau1wurf1977 » 2013-6-21 @ 22:57

I'm just wondering what is the fascination with the 2.0 over the 1.5? I swear the 1.5 sounds clearer / rawer and doesn't have the -5V requirement.
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby keropi » 2013-6-21 @ 23:12

1350s seem more plentiful, I had 3 of them and only 1 1320C...
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby bristlehog » 2013-6-22 @ 07:16

SB 2.0 supports 44.1 Khz sample rate instead of 22.05 Khz for 1.0/1.5. Not sure if any games of corresponding period have 44 Khz samples though.

BTW, are we sure that it's the DSP or bus controller chip? Some of the species have the big YM3812 chip, others have compact YM3812-F. Could it not be the difference between working and failing GAL?
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby Great Hierophant » 2013-6-22 @ 15:19

bristlehog wrote:SB 2.0 supports 44.1 Khz sample rate instead of 22.05 Khz for 1.0/1.5. Not sure if any games of corresponding period have 44 Khz samples though.

BTW, are we sure that it's the DSP or bus controller chip? Some of the species have the big YM3812 chip, others have compact YM3812-F. Could it not be the difference between working and failing GAL?


I *think* I have seen entries for the Sound Blaster 2.0 in install programs, but I cannot recall any. Usually install programs list Sound Blaster, Sound Blaster Pro, Sound Blaster 16 and Sound Blaster AWE32. I have seen (Old) and (New) to distinguish the Pros as well as the 1.0 and 2.0. Unless the program can distinguish the 2.0 from the 1.x, you will get 22k sampling rates.

The surface mounted -F parts are pretty rare, I still believe the CT1336A is the best suspect. 5u3 and keropi can solve it for us.
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby Cloudschatze » 2013-6-22 @ 16:14

bristlehog wrote:BTW, are we sure that it's the DSP or bus controller chip?


Not really. There's a possibility that the chipset has nothing to do with the problem at all. I don't think that we can yet rule out some flaw in a revised board design.


For cards without an obvious, "REV" designation, there is enough empirical evidence, both with the SB2.0 and other Creative cards, to suggest that this designator...

Image

...represents a two-digit version code, and four-digit year/week design-date.


Given this supposition, these are both "Rev. 4" SB2.0 cards (049151):
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_Dop- ... 00/sb8.jpg
http://www.symphoniae.com/misc/ct1350b_a.jpg

This is a "Rev. 5" SB2.0 card (059316):
http://svga.ks8.ru/Cards/Sound/Creative ... 0B%20A.jpg

And this is a "Rev. 6" SB2.0 card (069328):
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5494/img0042hm.jpg


As far as I can tell, none of the GAL upgrades have worked on the latter, "069328" boards, and while I'm still trying to identify the differences between these and the "Rev. 4" boards, I've only noticed changes around the crystal so far.

So, while it's already known that there are six versions of the CT1330, SBPro1, we're apparently also looking at the same number of SB2.0 cards, and at least SEVEN versions of the CT1600, SBPro2. Have fun collecting them all! ;)
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby Stefan_L » 2013-6-22 @ 17:49

What was the actual label on the GAL that was dumped?

And when you ordered the saa1099 chips from Creative did they wanted the "rev" info at all?
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby Cloudschatze » 2013-6-22 @ 18:11

Stefan_L wrote:What was the actual label on the GAL that was dumped?

And when you ordered the saa1099 chips from Creative did they wanted the "rev" info at all?


0048013500 - Same as the other known PAL chips.

Creative likely ceased selling the C/MS upgrade long before the later cards were available. The documentation for my own "069328" board (having both DSP v2.02 and the CT-1336A bus-interface chip) lacks any mention of optional C/MS capabilities, and likewise fails to describe the "CMSOFF" jumper at all.
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby Great Hierophant » 2013-6-22 @ 18:34

I wonder if the marked rev 2, rev 3, then the marked rev 4 are the earliest boards, and the unmarked revs with the six digit number on the bottom are the later cards.

This would fit with the empirical evidence. People have complained about having trouble with the unmarked rev boards from almost the very beginning. If those boards have the 2.02/1336A combo, then they have not worked with the upgrade.
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby carlostex » 2013-6-22 @ 18:38

Very nice investigation Cloudschatze!

We need to test 5u3's card, i can test it too, because i have GAL's and i can program them. Plus, i already stated at vintage computer forums that GAL brand has nothing to do with the problem, as a Lattice GAL works fine just like the NS one. So i can test both.

I'm actually most certain that 5u3's card will work, it has the same 049151 marking as my card, except it has a 2.02 DSP So it will absolve the DSP from any guilt at least.

It would be nice to test a 059316 revision.

Also, it seems that revisions 059316 and 069328 all have the CT1336A. I'm still inclined to think that the bus chip is the culprit. So we also need to test a 059316 as the upgrade has been failing on 069328 every single time.

To summorize:
Upgrade works on every printed REV and 049151 revisions. (We need to test 5u3's card to absolve the DSP from any guilt)

Upgrade has been failing 069328 revisions which always contain the CT1336A. (CT1336A chip is a suspect)

We have not yet tested a 059316 card. (We need to, if works then CT1336A chip will be absolved and we can at least say that maybe Creative removed the CMS possibility from revision 069328. If it does not work then all cards with CT1336A won't work with the upgrade and it can most likely be a sign of which cards work and don't.)
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby carlostex » 2013-6-22 @ 18:41

Great Hierophant wrote:I wonder if the marked rev 2, rev 3, then the marked rev 4 are the earliest boards, and the unmarked revs with the six digit number on the bottom are the later cards.


I strongly believe that those cards are the earliest. Actually i have no doubt whatsoever.
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby Cloudschatze » 2013-6-22 @ 18:57

Sorry, thought I'd been pretty clear, but yes, the printed "REV" = earlier board.

Creative obviously couldn't stick with this designation method, because, let's face it, seeing "REV 4" or "REV 6" on anything is pretty much code for "This company has no freaking idea what they're doing." :)
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby bristlehog » 2013-6-22 @ 19:58

My card appears to be 059316. Same with the other card of russian retro-gamer community.

Notice that bus controller chips, albeit being both 1336A, have different printings over them; the YM3812-F chips have some cryptic 'EAGB' and 'EAMB' letters.

The collector from Ukraine has a 049151 revision card but with 2.01 DSP unlike 5u3's one.

The CT1350A marked card I mentioned earlier appears to be a 049151 card with 2.01 DSP and CT1336 bus controller.

I've noticed that the problematic 069328 'Rev6' card mentioned by Cloudschatze is actually built over an older 1991 PCB with full-size YM3812 chip, yet newer DSP and bus chips are used:

Image
Image
Last edited by bristlehog on 2013-6-22 @ 20:41, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby Cloudschatze » 2013-6-22 @ 20:36

bristlehog wrote:I've noticed that the problematic 'Rev6' card mentioned by Cloudschatze is actually built over an older 1991 PCB...


The "Rev. 06" board is a modification of the 1991-dated, "Rev. 04" board design. Ignore the copyright date and go off of the "069328" board date instead.

When do you anticipate being able to test your cards?
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Re: SB 2.0 CT1350 CMS chips dumped

Postby bristlehog » 2013-6-22 @ 20:45

Cloudschatze wrote:When do you anticipate being able to test your cards?


Hard to say precisely due to unreliable work of Russian customs and post services. May widely vary from end of June to end of August, if nothing gets lost on its way.

I currently have no 'cards', only one 059316 revision card. As for the other russian guy, he lives in another city and it could take an additional month to deliver him flashed GAL chip to test his 059316 SB.
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