obobskivich wrote:

I remember that "style" of speakers well, but never owned a pair myself

BTW, I SHOULD have mentioned this in my previous post:

Throughout the decades I have ran across several Reveal "wannabes"... speakers that at first glance, look IDENTICAL to the larger Reveal speakers that I have. Matter o' fact, I actually have a pair of those "wannabes" in the shed right now still in their box... but those ones' specific brand I forget offhand.

Anyhow, long story short, all of the imitations that I've stumbled on throughout the years sound like PRUE CRAP compared to the true Reveal brand speakers... even though they look exactly the same at first glance.

For my PC, the Harmon/Kardon HK395 set:

For my ears, the surprisingly nice sounding Plantronics Gamecom 780:

And my Hi-Fi has a pair of Castle Severn SE II's:

rfnagel wrote:

Thanks for the detailed explaination for that 😀 Yeah, I was already semi-familiar with that, but the thing is; Valve totally removed the options for EAX in the sound options menu with their early-last-year updates to all of the GoldSource games, and I have an SBLive running under Windows XP. So there wouldn't really be any choice/option for me to re-enable 4-channel sound (as I'm assuming that Creative Alchemy doesn't run under Windows XP).

Also, even with Alchemy; from what I understand Valve also totally removed the (existing) 4-channel positional sound information from the code and GoldSource engine, so how would Alchemy be able to translate/decode sound coming positionally from your front or rear without this special positional data that the previous versions of the GoldSource games (internally) provided?

P.S. Of course, the stereo 2-channel positional sound data is still in these games.

EAX isn't tied to surround sound - it's an effects API that exists as a superset of DirectSound 3D. You should be able to run in surround sound without EAX is my point. Odd that they'd remove existing features though... 😵

And no, ALchemy isn't meant to run within XP, nor would it "fix" the issues under Vista/7/etc - if EAX is unavailable within a game it won't do anything. However, CMSS may accomplish what you want, and that isn't tied to any specific game - it's just a feature of the soundcard (I forget, however, if Live! supports CMSS).

obobskivich wrote:

EAX isn't tied to surround sound - it's an effects API that exists as a superset of DirectSound 3D. You should be able to run in surround sound without EAX is my point.

I'm not sure if this is the "norm", but unless I enable EAX for my SBLive in the GoldSource games (like I posted previously, the pre-update 2009 versions of the games) the games are only in 2-channel stereo.

There is also an option (that was removed by Valve as well) for A3D, but this always locked the games up hard as a rock when running them.

Anyhow, like I said, I dunno if this is the normal behavior, but enabling EAX is what I have to do in order to have 4-channel positional sound using my SBLive and Windows XP.

obobskivich wrote:

Odd that they'd remove existing features though... 😵

Yeah, and not only did they remove A3D (as mentioned above), but they ALSO removed the Direct3D graphics renderer. The only options in the current "updated" versions of these games for graphics is the software renderer (PEEEEEEE-UKE 🤣!), and OpenGL.

A big problem with OpenGL is simply that fact that being these games were originally intended to run on quite slow and older PCs, hence a lot of folks have performance and framerate problems running them with the OpenGL graphics renderer on their older PCs.

I myself never used the OpenGL renderer until I got my ATI Radeon 9600 Pro... the Direct3D renderer provided for excellent performance and framerate, while the OpenGL render chugged along like an extremely slow and boring slideshow 🤣! But, with the ATI video card, OpenGL ran quite nicely 😀

Oh, I guess I should mention; my current rig contains an Intel P4 2.666Ghz, and has (or 'had' I should say, before the video card upgrade) an onboard Intel video chipset.

In other words, the so-called "updates" to these games wouldn't currently affect me as far as running the OpenGL renderer (as that's what I currently use; as it looks considerably prettier with "detailed textures" enabled for the games, verses running the Direct3D renderer)... but for me, NO 4-channel positional audio is a game/show-stopper for me (which is why I run the 2009 versions of the games).

obobskivich wrote:

And no, ALchemy isn't meant to run within XP, nor would it "fix" the issues under Vista/7/etc - if EAX is unavailable within a game it won't do anything.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, thanks for the info 😀

obobskivich wrote:

However, CMSS may accomplish what you want, and that isn't tied to any specific game - it's just a feature of the soundcard (I forget, however, if Live! supports CMSS).

Yeah, my SBLive supports CMSS, but for some damned strange reason I have to enable it using the Creative Play Center (Creative's music media player). The weird thing is; the option for CMSS is not included in my SBLive's control panel (or it's custom audio mixer), where you would adjust and configure EAX effects, SoundFonts, number of speakers/channels/etc... the ONLY place that I have the option of enabling CMSS is in the Creative Play Center.

Anyhow, at least on my current setup (so I don't know of this is the norm), CMSS only seems to provide for a virtual/pseudo surround-sound effect, and not provide true 4-channel positional audio. Kind of a strange sounding surround-sound effect that, the only way I can describe is, "crosses my ears"... you know, like "crosses my eyes" 🤣!

rfnagel wrote:

I'm not sure if this is the "norm", but unless I enable EAX for my SBLive in the GoldSource games (like I posted previously, the pre-update 2009 versions of the games) the games are only in 2-channel stereo.

There is also an option (that was removed by Valve as well) for A3D, but this always locked the games up hard as a rock when running them.

Anyhow, like I said, I dunno if this is the normal behavior, but enabling EAX is what I have to do in order to have 4-channel positional sound using my SBLive and Windows XP.

🙄 That's...not right. EAX is supposed to be treated like a library of effects/features to enhance 3D audio. I'm thinking of a few games I play with EAX - they'll let you enable up to whatever the "max" number of channels is (5.1, 6.1, whatever) and EAX is a completely separate option. Sounds like they messed up more than a few things here. 😵

Try the Hitman games, for example - as far as I remember all of them (except the newest one, obviously) support some level of EAX, and it enables as a separate menu option depending on what your hardware supports (or is detected to support, at least).

Out of curiosity, does the "new" CounterStrike let you enable any sort of surround sound beyond 4.0, like does it enable 5.1 but not 4.0? Or is it hard-locked into stereo only? Is it anything you can change in the game's ini files?

Yeah, and not only did they remove A3D (as mentioned above), but they ALSO removed the Direct3D graphics renderer. The only opti […]
Show full quote

Yeah, and not only did they remove A3D (as mentioned above), but they ALSO removed the Direct3D graphics renderer. The only options in the current "updated" versions of these games for graphics is the software renderer (PEEEEEEE-UKE 🤣!), and OpenGL.

A big problem with OpenGL is simply that fact that being these games were originally intended to run on quite slow and older PCs, hence a lot of folks have performance and framerate problems running them with the OpenGL graphics renderer on their older PCs.

I myself never used the OpenGL renderer until I got my ATI Radeon 9600 Pro... the Direct3D renderer provided for excellent performance and framerate, while the OpenGL render chugged along like an extremely slow and boring slideshow 🤣! But, with the ATI video card, OpenGL ran quite nicely 😀

Oh, I guess I should mention; my current rig contains an Intel P4 2.666Ghz, and has (or 'had' I should say, before the video card upgrade) an onboard Intel video chipset.

In other words, the so-called "updates" to these games wouldn't currently affect me as far as running the OpenGL renderer (as that's what I currently use; as it looks considerably prettier with "detailed textures" enabled for the games, verses running the Direct3D renderer)... but for me, NO 4-channel positional audio is a game/show-stopper for me (which is why I run the 2009 versions of the games).

When you mention OpenGL I got to thinking: they didn't by chance re-release these games as free-to-play or similar around that time? I'm just thinking OpenGL is free, while DirectX and EAX aren't, so maybe they were trying to eliminate non-free resources to make the game itself free. I don't know if that's true or not - I'm (as you probably already figured) not all that familiar with Counter-Strike itself. 🤣

The only other thing I thought of (I looked up the game on Wikipedia to see if it had any "scoop" on this - didn't find much) is that as part of Valve's SteamPlay feature they removed those features to allow compatibility with OS X. But that would also seem odd - why not just port the game and leave the Windows version alone? 😕

Overall this seems very odd indeed.

Yeah, my SBLive supports CMSS, but for some damned strange reason I have to enable it using the Creative Play Center (Creative's music media player). The weird thing is; the option for CMSS is not included in my SBLive's control panel (or it's custom audio mixer), where you would adjust and configure EAX effects, SoundFonts, number of speakers/channels/etc... the ONLY place that I have the option of enabling CMSS is in the Creative Play Center.

Anyhow, at least on my current setup (so I don't know of this is the norm), CMSS only seems to provide for a virtual/pseudo surround-sound effect, and not provide true 4-channel positional audio. Kind of a strange sounding surround-sound effect that, the only way I can describe is, "crosses my ears"... you know, like "crosses my eyes" 🤣!

Sounds like it's doing something different with CMSS than later cards - on the Audigy (and later) cards you can enable CMSS as a "global" setting in the drivers - it's kind of like Pro Logic, CinemaDSP, and Dolby Headphone all packed into one. It won't fully replicate discrete 5.1, but it can do a good job of getting close, depending on the input material (it's a simulacrum, just like Pro Logic or what-have-you). There is a "mode" on the Audigy cards (I haven't seen it on X-Fi/SoundCore) that just mirrors the same stereo signal to every pair of speakers, and imho very much sounds like "crosses my ears" to me. That might be what Play Center is doing.

Given their low cost now, you might consider snagging an Audigy just to toy around with - they do add a number of features related to processing over the Live! (and if you like EAX games, they add the "higher" levels of EAX as well). 😀

obobskivich wrote:

Sounds like they messed up more than a few things here. 😵

Hehe, with Valve/Steam, it surely wouldn't be the FIRST time 🤣!

obobskivich wrote:

Out of curiosity, does the "new" CounterStrike let you enable any sort of surround sound beyond 4.0, like does it enable 5.1 but not 4.0? Or is it hard-locked into stereo only? Is it anything you can change in the game's ini files?

By the "new" CS, I'm assuming that you're referring to CS Source and CS Global Offensive? I dont' own those games (not enough PC "OOMMPH" 🤣!) but my friends do. From what I've seen on their PCs, as well as talking to folks about it, I think that those games are strictly stereo as well... although, I'm not 100% sure.

obobskivich wrote:

When you mention OpenGL I got to thinking: they didn't by chance re-release these games as free-to-play or similar around that time? I'm just thinking OpenGL is free, while DirectX and EAX aren't, so maybe they were trying to eliminate non-free resources to make the game itself free. I don't know if that's true or not - I'm (as you probably already figured) not all that familiar with Counter-Strike itself. 🤣

The only other thing I thought of (I looked up the game on Wikipedia to see if it had any "scoop" on this - didn't find much) is that as part of Valve's SteamPlay feature they removed those features to allow compatibility with OS X. But that would also seem odd - why not just port the game and leave the Windows version alone? 😕

Overall this seems very odd indeed.

Here's the deal:

Those games aren't free-to-play, but they were all ported to Linux (early last year).

This in order to prepare them for their upcoming "SteamBox"... a living room console, that needless to say, I (as well as a ton of other players) have NO desire whatsoever to own or to play on!

In order to port to Linux, they had to replace the existing Direct3D renderer, as well as DirectSound. They substituted the above with SDL2, which (as I'm sure you know) is free for commercial usage.

In the process, they ALSO screwed with the Windows versions... as you said, why the hell not simply LEAVE the Windows versions ALONE, instead of causing headaches for their loyal Windows users?

There have been all sorts of discussion about "how to return my game back to normal". Most of this discussion isn't referring to A3D/EAX/4-Channel Audio/OpebGL, but rather the entire "feel" of the game is different (mouse response and "feel", etc...).

Heh, over in the Valve/Steam Forums there's a message thread explaining how to make the game(s) "feel" like they did before the so-called "updates", and I swear... if you printed out that very first instructional post in that thread, it would be PAGES of "change this/add that/do this/do that/etc... etc... etc...". PITA...

obobskivich wrote:

Sounds like it's doing something different with CMSS than later cards - on the Audigy (and later) cards you can enable CMSS as a "global" setting in the drivers - it's kind of like Pro Logic, CinemaDSP, and Dolby Headphone all packed into one. It won't fully replicate discrete 5.1, but it can do a good job of getting close, depending on the input material (it's a simulacrum, just like Pro Logic or what-have-you). There is a "mode" on the Audigy cards (I haven't seen it on X-Fi/SoundCore) that just mirrors the same stereo signal to every pair of speakers, and imho very much sounds like "crosses my ears" to me. That might be what Play Center is doing.

Many thanks for the info 😀 Yeah, as you described, it sounds like it's doing the same thing as that mode on the Audigy cards.

In actuality, I've read up on exactly what the CMSS is doing on my SBLive, but the info eludes me right now. IIRC correctly, it has something to do with the position of the audio coming from the stereo mix, as well as the frequency of the sound (low/bass / high/treble / etc...).

It then does some form of phase inversion... hence the "crossed ears" effect.

obobskivich wrote:

Given their low cost now, you might consider snagging an Audigy just to toy around with - they do add a number of features related to processing over the Live! (and if you like EAX games, they add the "higher" levels of EAX as well). 😀

Thanks for that info, I'll definitely check out the Audigy 😀

rfnagel wrote:

Hehe, with Valve/Steam, it surely wouldn't be the FIRST time 🤣!

Yeah, there is *that* detail... 😒

By the "new" CS, I'm assuming that you're referring to CS Source and CS Global Offensive? I dont' own those games (not enough PC "OOMMPH" 🤣!) but my friends do. From what I've seen on their PCs, as well as talking to folks about it, I think that those games are strictly stereo as well... although, I'm not 100% sure.

No I meant the "post update" versions of CS/CS:CZ. I think CS:Source should do 5.1 - I don't have it installed currently, but I do remember playing Half-Life 2 and Portal with 5.1 (and/or 5.1-thru-headphones), which are the same engine (as far as I understand). I do remember having to have Windows set to greater-than-stereo to enable some sound options in Half-Life 2 though. Those games are all software audio though. Not terrible imho, and it is "universal" (any computer that can run the game, can run the game with the best audio it supports; or at least in theory) - EAX4/5 titles may still have a bit better positional effects, but IME they're somewhat temperamental, there is a performance hit, and it requires specific hardware to support (especially EAX 5).

Here's the deal: […]
Show full quote

Here's the deal:

Those games aren't free-to-play, but they were all ported to Linux (early last year).

This in order to prepare them for their upcoming "SteamBox"... a living room console, that needless to say, I (as well as a ton of other players) have NO desire whatsoever to own or to play on!

In order to port to Linux, they had to replace the existing Direct3D renderer, as well as DirectSound. They substituted the above with SDL2, which (as I'm sure you know) is free for commercial usage.

In the process, they ALSO screwed with the Windows versions... as you said, why the hell not simply LEAVE the Windows versions ALONE, instead of causing headaches for their loyal Windows users?

There have been all sorts of discussion about "how to return my game back to normal". Most of this discussion isn't referring to A3D/EAX/4-Channel Audio/OpebGL, but rather the entire "feel" of the game is different (mouse response and "feel", etc...).

Heh, over in the Valve/Steam Forums there's a message thread explaining how to make the game(s) "feel" like they did before the so-called "updates", and I swear... if you printed out that very first instructional post in that thread, it would be PAGES of "change this/add that/do this/do that/etc... etc... etc...". PITA...

Yeesh. What a great of example of letting politics dictate gameplay and features; certainly not a "first" for Valve. 😒

Many thanks for the info 😀 Yeah, as you described, it sounds like it's doing the same thing as that mode on the Audigy cards.

In actuality, I've read up on exactly what the CMSS is doing on my SBLive, but the info eludes me right now. IIRC correctly, it has something to do with the position of the audio coming from the stereo mix, as well as the frequency of the sound (low/bass / high/treble / etc...).

It then does some form of phase inversion... hence the "crossed ears" effect.

Phase inversion could certainly cause a very uncomfortable/odd listening experience (if you ever want a real "hall of mirrors" experience, run some omni-radials inverted 🤣).

Honestly it sounds like Valve did a good job hosing support here, to the point that conventional wisdom stops being applicable. If you can get the game to somehow enable 5.1 and get that into a stand-alone Dolby or ("modern") DTS decoder, that can get you a 4.0/4.1 output that you'll have more control over. Would require more equipment though.

Another option would be to stick with the stereo output setup you have, and pick up a stand-alone Pro Logic (or better, Pro Logic capable Cinema DSP (the "gotcha" for CinemaDSP versus other manufacturer's tech is that C-DSP is built upon acoustic models of real-world locations, instead of a matrix transform with the sole goal of putting noise on every channel - it's what most other manufacturers are ripping off with things like "jazz club" or "concert hall" modes)) decoder - it won't be discrete 4.0 (or 5.0), but it will do a better job than CMSS and will give you more control/flexibility than what it sounds like the game is doing. With the speakers you have, you'd want to ensure whatever you got had pre-outs. I used to have such a system for gaming years ago, with a Yamaha DSP-E200 providing both decoding and amplifiers for the surround speakers. Upgrading to discrete 5.1 (and then 7.1) wasn't as big of an upgrade as you might imagine - C-DSP + Pro Logic did a fine job, and it worked very nice with 4.0. Yamaha does make "all in one" units that will provide amplification for all channels, like the DSP-A1000, and units that just provide decoding/processing for all channels, like the DSP-1 (there's also a DSP-A1 just to keep things properly confusing 🤣; it will do 5.1 digital with or without CinemaDSP, among other wonders). Most of these will allow expansion beyond 4.0 if you were so inclined - the "full" CinemaDSP package is actually six (or seven, if you have a center-channel) channels - four in a normal quad configuration, and another two above and set wider than the front L/R. It's very nice to listen to if you have the space/speakers to set it all up. If you're going for a digital decoder, Yamaha has stand-alone models there too, like DDP-1 and DDP-2, but I'd also look for the more common Technics decoders, SH-AC300 and AC500D (the 500D adds partial DTS support (it can't downmix)).

Thanks for that info, I'll definitely check out the Audigy 😀

One thing I almost forgot - there are *many* versions of the Audigy; you want one with the EMU10k2 DSP, not the "software solution" boards (they have less capabilities and are generally lower quality) or re-packaged SB Live boards (because it'd be a repeat of what you already have).

The "main" products like Audigy, Audigy 2, Audigy 2 ZS will fulfill that, it's when you get into the "variant" products with SE/LE/VS/etc that it gets interesting (nothing can be simple... 🙄).

Here's a Wikipedia article that lists all of the variations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audigy

The Model # (e.g. SB0350) is probably what you'll have to rely on if looking at auctions or used hardware.

The Dolby Digital Live package for them:
http://software.store.creative.com/software/d … /106-20946.aspx

Dolby is the reason that costs money; not Creative. There's a version for the X-Fi that also adds DTS Connect, but that will increase the requirements placed on the external decoder (it will have to support DTS and DTS downmixing; conventionally any decoder that will do this will also support Dolby Digital), and I'm not a fan of the X-Fi's driver package (I don't like the "mode switching" feature). X-Fi does support EAX 5 though, if you play any of the games on the short-list for that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_EAX_support - there used to be a nice interactive version of this from Creative, but I haven't had luck finding it recently). If you decide to go with an X-Fi, there's an equally long list of variants, some of which don't have the actual "X-Fi" chip, and of the ones with the X-Fi chip there's a delineation between those with X-RAM (64MB on-card RAM for the DSP) and those without. You want the chip + X-RAM versions.

Another avenue if you're going to go with an external decoder for all this, would be another card that supports Dolby Digital Live. I know some of the Asus/C-Media cards support this (but I'm not clear on exactly which ones). There's also the Turtle Beach Montego DDL and Diamond XS71 DDL (in both cases they have to be the "DDL" versions); the Diamond is still listed on Diamond's website, but I don't know if it's available:
https://www.diamondmm.com/xs71ddl-diamond-xtr … sound-card.html

Played Fallout on my JBL 120Tis, by the way. Fallout seems to use reverb tricks to make the background music sound "wide". As such, even on el-cheapo multimedia speakers, the background music sounds "wide" and "ambient".

On the 120Tis, it's just... wow!

obobskivich wrote:

No I meant the "post update" versions of CS/CS:CZ.

The "updated" versions of all of the GoldSource games are now stereo-only (note that I always like to enclose 'update' or 'updated' in quotes when it refers to most anything Valve/Steam 🤣!).

obobskivich wrote:

I think CS:Source should do 5.1 - I don't have it installed currently, but I do remember playing Half-Life 2 and Portal with 5.1 (and/or 5.1-thru-headphones), which are the same engine (as far as I understand). I do remember having to have Windows set to greater-than-stereo to enable some sound options in Half-Life 2 though.

Thanks for the info 😀 Like I said, I wasn't really sure... as I've only twiddled around with CS:Source and CS:GO briefly on a few of my buddies' PCs.

obobskivich wrote:

Yeesh. What a great of example of letting politics dictate gameplay and features; certainly not a "first" for Valve. 😒

I REALLY HATE to derail this thread, but:

http://kotaku.com/weird-paranoia-at-valve-say … loyee-700121951

Pretty much explains it all! Shortly after the initial "updates" to the GoldSource games, quite a few employees were canned. The above is an interview with one of them.

obobskivich wrote:

Honestly it sounds like Valve did a good job hosing support here, to the point that conventional wisdom stops being applicable.

And the key word here? "Wisdom" 🤣!

obobskivich wrote:

If you can get the game to somehow enable 5.1 and get that into a stand-alone Dolby or ("modern") DTS decoder, that can get you a 4.0/4.1 output that you'll have more control over. Would require more equipment though.

Another option would be to stick with the stereo output setup you have, and pick up a stand-alone Pro Logic (or better, Pro Logic capable Cinema DSP (the "gotcha" for CinemaDSP versus other manufacturer's tech is that C-DSP is built upon acoustic models of real-world locations, instead of a matrix transform with the sole goal of putting noise on every channel - it's what most other manufacturers are ripping off with things like "jazz club" or "concert hall" modes)) decoder - it won't be discrete 4.0 (or 5.0), but it will do a better job than CMSS and will give you more control/flexibility than what it sounds like the game is doing.

MANY THANKS for that detailed info! 😀 Looks like I have some researching to do. Heh... and I thought that *I* was a fairly knowledgeable audiophile, and have come to the conclusion that I was sadly mistaken 🤣!

obobskivich wrote:

One thing I almost forgot - there are *many* versions of the Audigy; you want one with the EMU10k2 DSP, not the "software solution" boards (they have less capabilities and are generally lower quality) or re-packaged SB Live boards (because it'd be a repeat of what you already have).

The "main" products like Audigy, Audigy 2, Audigy 2 ZS will fulfill that, it's when you get into the "variant" products with SE/LE/VS/etc that it gets interesting (nothing can be simple... 🙄).

Again, thanks for the info 😀 Yeah, I would definately want one that had the EMU10K(2) chip, for the reasons that you stated, as well as for my music composing with (hardware synthesized) SoundFonts 😀

Anyhow, another big thanks for the detailed info... like I said, it looks like I have some researching and learning to do 😀

rfnagel wrote:

The "updated" versions of all of the GoldSource games are now stereo-only (note that I always like to enclose 'update' or 'updated' in quotes when it refers to most anything Valve/Steam 🤣!).

Yeesh. Guess that's one way to promote a newer game. 😵

I REALLY HATE to derail this thread, but:

http://kotaku.com/weird-paranoia-at-valve-say … loyee-700121951

Pretty much explains it all! Shortly after the initial "updates" to the GoldSource games, quite a few employees were canned. The above is an interview with one of them.

The whole "high school culture" thing seems to be unfortunately prevalent in many workplaces (I doubt it's just a "Valve thing"). People get older; that doesn't mean they grow up. 😊

MANY THANKS for that detailed info! 😀 Looks like I have some researching to do. Heh... and I thought that *I* was a fairly knowledgeable audiophile, and have come to the conclusion that I was sadly mistaken 🤣!

Again, thanks for the info 😀 Yeah, I would definately want one that had the EMU10K(2) chip, for the reasons that you stated, as well as for my music composing with (hardware synthesized) SoundFonts 😀

Anyhow, another big thanks for the detailed info... like I said, it looks like I have some researching and learning to do 😀

No problem; happy to talk about audio/computers/etc. 😁

Again, Folks, sorry for getting so off-topic 🤣! Anyhow, back to the topic at hand 😀

These are pics (found on the Internet) of my old Cambridge SoundWorks FPS1000 4-channel computer speakers. They were distributed by Creative Labs well over a decade and a half ago, and mine still sound GREAT! 😀

obobskivich wrote:

The whole "high school culture" thing seems to be unfortunately prevalent in many workplaces (I doubt it's just a "Valve thing"). People get older; that doesn't mean they grow up. 😊

Just like to make a note on the "never grow up" thing. While I'm not for "high school culture", sometimes not growing up is a nice thing. We men just never grow up, the difference between men and boys are the price of their toys.

I think single audiophiles are thankful they don't have to cope with WAF, and hardware enthusiasts are happy to be single as well. Yes, marriage is probably nice for some people, but some others just prefer nicer things, like large studio monitors in the living room, personal gaming studio, meticulously-built legacy system, or probably golf.

rfnagel wrote:

Again, Folks, sorry for getting so off-topic 🤣! Anyhow, back to the topic at hand 😀

These are pics (found on the Internet) of my old Cambridge SoundWorks FPS1000 4-channel computer speakers. They were distributed by Creative Labs well over a decade and a half ago, and mine still sound GREAT! 😀

Wow I haven't seen a set of those in AGES. I've *never* seen the stands before. 😲

Speaking of other PC speakers (you've got me thinking...) - anyone else remember all of the quality 2.1/4.1/5.1 kits that existed 10-15 years ago? Back when JBL, Altec Lansing, H/K, Monsoon (anyone remember them?), etc actually made speakers and not iJunk.

I'm thinking of sets like these, for example:

I think its interesting how sets like that used to exist, used to provide good sound quality, and not cost a fortune to do it, and then the "PC audiophile revolution" happened and we're back to tincan 2.0 speakers. 🤣

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Just like to make a note on the "never grow up" thing. While I'm not for "high school culture", sometimes not growing up is a nice thing. We men just never grow up, the difference between men and boys are the price of their toys.

I think single audiophiles are thankful they don't have to cope with WAF, and hardware enthusiasts are happy to be single as well. Yes, marriage is probably nice for some people, but some others just prefer nicer things, like large studio monitors in the living room, personal gaming studio, meticulously-built legacy system, or probably golf.

I like how "personal gaming studio" is just hedged in there with golf and hi-fi. 🤣

obobskivich wrote:

I like how "personal gaming studio" is just hedged in there with golf and hi-fi. 🤣

Yes, it's the gaming equivalent of an audiophile's garage with all the cool stuff only the user himself can understand.

Of course, that's not saying the two worlds cannot be combined. How about this? An 440BX system with Voodoo5 5500 and Aureal 3D, whose discrete sound output is handled by a Harman Kardon 5.1 receiver, which in turn drives a pair of JBL 250 Tis (front), a pair JBL 120 Tis (rear), a pair JBL 18Tis (center, dual-mono), and a JBL B460 subwoofer.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

obobskivich wrote:

I like how "personal gaming studio" is just hedged in there with golf and hi-fi. 🤣

Yes, it's the gaming equivalent of an audiophile's garage with all the cool stuff only the user himself can understand.

Of course, that's not saying the two worlds cannot be combined. How about this? An 440BX system with Voodoo5 5500 and Aureal 3D, whose discrete sound output is handled by a Harman Kardon 5.1 receiver, which in turn drives a pair of JBL 250 Tis (front), a pair JBL 120 Tis (rear), a pair JBL 18Tis (center, dual-mono), and a JBL B460 subwoofer.

I'm not a fan of center channels, dual-mono "arrays" even less. Otherwise I've got no problems with a nice 4.1-11.2 system for gaming - I'd probably pick different components but the concept remains the same.

obobskivich wrote:

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

obobskivich wrote:

I like how "personal gaming studio" is just hedged in there with golf and hi-fi. 🤣

Yes, it's the gaming equivalent of an audiophile's garage with all the cool stuff only the user himself can understand.

Of course, that's not saying the two worlds cannot be combined. How about this? An 440BX system with Voodoo5 5500 and Aureal 3D, whose discrete sound output is handled by a Harman Kardon 5.1 receiver, which in turn drives a pair of JBL 250 Tis (front), a pair JBL 120 Tis (rear), a pair JBL 18Tis (center, dual-mono), and a JBL B460 subwoofer.

I'm not a fan of center channels, dual-mono "arrays" even less. Otherwise I've got no problems with a nice 4.1-11.2 system for gaming - I'd probably pick different components but the concept remains the same.

Anyway, while we're at it, does Dolby ProLogic IIx upmix discrete 4 channel to 5.1? See, Aureal 3D sound cards (as typical as sound cards during that era) has discrete 4.0 output, I wonder if DPL IIx can upmix them to 5.1 or 7.1, or even 9.2.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Anyway, while we're at it, does Dolby ProLogic IIx upmix discrete 4 channel to 5.1? See, Aureal 3D sound cards (as typical as sound cards during that era) has discrete 4.0 output, I wonder if DPL IIx can upmix them to 5.1 or 7.1, or even 9.2.

IIx can't do 9.1; that's IIz (II is 5.1, IIx is 6.1/7.1, and IIz is 9.1). Honestly though I don't like PLII (any of its variants) - it doesn't do a good job even with Dolby Surround content imho (I'd rather have "true" PL1). IME Pro Logic II (and IIx with 6.1) tends to "narrow" everything onto the center channel, and if the center channel is removed from the equation you just get faint matrix output on the various surround speakers and a chopped-up output on the main L/R. It very much strikes me as a "sound on all channels" feature to appease buyers who demand their 5.1 system plays everything in 5.1. Personally I'd rather see 4.0 stay 4.0 as well (I'm a fan of native reproduction). Having said all of that, there's some functional considerations that have to be taken into account:

- Most (I should say "practically all") receivers/preamps do not digitize their multi-channel analog inputs, which means they can't perform ANY processing on those inputs. In most cases you should still get channel leveling but that's it - no delays, no DSP (which is where Pro Logic II, or whatever else, comes from), no bass management, etc.

- Most receivers will, however, gladly turn 2.0 into 2.1 or 5.1 into 5.0 or what-have-you through their bass management features. It usually just depends on how you have the subwoofer output setup. Older Yamaha models (and perhaps other makers) take it a step further by offering a "SW/Both" mode where the internal processor treats the 5.0 (or 2.0 or 4.0 or whatever) speakers as if there is no subwoofer, so the main L/R get run full-range and take LF low-pass for any channels with bass management enabled, but the subwoofer also takes LF low-pass and the LFE (when present).

- Regarding the ".1", with the exception of pre-mixed 5.1 content (like a DVD), the ".1" channel really doesn't "exist" - its just a low-pass for a subwoofer (or subwoofers) to provide re-enforcement to the main speakers. So with 4.0 content, jumping it up to 4.1 is only needed if the 4 main speakers need the additional bass. With pre-mixed 5.1 content there's potentially "unique" data on that channel (because its mixed at the studio with six channels), so you either need the subwoofer, or a processor that will roll that channel into another speaker for output (iirc its a requirement for stand-alone Dolby/DTS decoders to support this, for example if you take your 5.1 receiver and set it to "Subwoofer: No" the LFE channel should be played on the main L/R; the "gotcha" is that afaik most stand-alone DVD players will just discard the LFE channel for their L/R analog outputs).

- What about ".2" (and .3, .4, etc)? With the exception of some very exotic Harman equipment, and some Yamaha models, there is no .2 or .3 or what-have-you. It's just multiple parallel outputs to connect multiple subwoofers without the use of splitters. Harman has some very high end equipment (sold thru JBL Synthesis and Mark Levinson, and a cut-down (and bugged) version for the HK990 receiver) that will actually EQ and manage independent subwoofer channels on the output side - it still takes 5.1 or 6.1 or whatever from the source media, but it treats each subwoofer output as a separate channel and sets leveling, EQ, etc accordingly. The idea being to "even out" response for very large rooms (which is where you'll usually see JBL Synthesis and Levinson theaters). Yamaha's older CinemaDSP models often had Subwoofer-L and Subwoofer-R outputs, which do things a bit differently from that - if they're just being "fed" LFE content from a valid 5.1 (or whatever) source they'll output it in parallel. But when bass management is enabled, the L subwoofer is dedicated for all of the "left" channel speakers, and the R subwoofer for all of the "right" channel speakers. Yamaha's newer CinemaDSP models, that also feature YPAO, will usually have the subwoofer outputs labeled "Front" and "Back" - if I remember right they're more or less parallel outputs with independent level controls.

So where this leaves A3D 4.0 (or 4.0 from an SB Live! or whatever) is that it needs to be digitized in some manner (to allow processing), either through a stand-alone external encoder, or with a *very* expensive preamp/receiver that can digitize multi-channel inputs (the only two that I know for sure to do this are the Accuphase VX-700 and Mark Levinson No502; I vaguely want to say the McIntosh MX-151 and Denon A1HDCI may also support it, and there's probably a "little brother" to the 502 that wears Lexicon or Synthesis branding that may do it as well). I know the VX-700 does support 4.0/4.1 -> 6.1 program, but I don't know if it's explicitly handled through Pro Logic II. The Levinson has more DSP features than it knows what to do with (and has the pricetag to boot!). I'm not sure if any of those models are still in production either.

As far as external encoders, you'd be looking at something like the Creative DTS-610: http://us.store.creative.com/B002651ZEM/M/B002651ZEM.htm (it isn't in production anymore, but you can probably find them used with some looking)

If you went with the external encoder you'd just feed the digital output into your existing decoder/receiver/preamp and go from there. I'm not sure what the DTS-610 would actually do with a quad input - you'd probably just get a dummy center channel (iirc the DTS specification doesn't actually allow for a 4.0 signal like AC-3 does).

I know you can usually find Dolby encoders (as in, actual Dolby Labs hardware designed for studios) on eBay - I do not, however, know if they would work for this feature. I've never played around with one, nor read much about them. 😊

Personally what I'd rather do with a 4.0 source, given that most soundcards with multi-channel output handle their own DSP and have mixer controls and so forth, is just feed that 4.0 signal into a multi-channel capable receiver/preamp and let it stay a 4.0 signal. Even if your receiver is setup for 5.1 or 7.1 output, and you take the 4.0 signal in, it'll just do a 1:1 and the un-needed speakers won't do anything. If bass management is a problem (e.g. the card won't output an LFE channel), you'll need some sort of external solution, like an active crossover or loudspeaker management system.

Some oddball "almost there" alternatives:

- A surround pre-amp from Parasound, the Halo P7 (http://www.parasound.com/halo/p7.php); it will take multi-channel analog inputs, and do bass management and leveling on them. It doesn't do any DSP though. I know McCormack Audio used to make, or perhaps still does make, a similar pre-amp as well.

- If you took a 2.0 signal, or could get a 2.0 Lt/Rt signal (ideally), you could feed that into a decoder/processor to accomplish whatever simulacrum you like (CinemaDSP, Pro Logic, Logic7, etc).

- In theory you could take the 4.0 output into a miniDSP (or gang of them) and perform processing on that, but it still leaves you with the preamp/control question (and it isn't a "neat" solution) - you wouldn't need as complicated as a pre-amp as the Parasound though, and could just dump the output into your conventional multi-channel input on a receiver.

I have a bit of audio gear 😀

The main setup is a Rotel RA-03 with a pair of Krix Phoenix floor standing speakers.

In the kitchen I have a 27" iMac hooked up to this tiny t-amp (works surprisingly well!) with a set of jamo cornet 145k speakers.

The bedroom is very similar to the main setup Rotel RA-02 with a pair of Krix Phoenix speakers. The RA-02 is a bit under powered but for the bedroom it is more than enough.

At the office I have a pair of audio engine a5 speakers connected to an airport express. I don't really like these speakers that much but they work.

obobskivich wrote:

Wow I haven't seen a set of those in AGES. I've *never* seen the stands before. 😲

Hehe, to tell the truth, I hadn't used them much... UNTIL fairly recently. This past November (2013) I hooked then up to an older laptop that I'm semi-currently using, and they sound quite nice 😀 I also connected them to my satellite TV receiver so's I can have nice 4-channel sound while watching any dish broadcasts that support it.

And, although I still have the stands, I've never used them.

obobskivich wrote:

I think its interesting how sets like that used to exist, used to provide good sound quality, and not cost a fortune to do it, and then the "PC audiophile revolution" happened and we're back to tincan 2.0 speakers. 🤣

Hehe, quite ironic isn't it 🤣?!

I SWEAR, most of my PC gaming buddies that I play all of the previously mentioned GoldSource games with have nothing but their built-in 2-channel laptop speakers, or a SEVERELY crap set of tincan speakers connected to their state-of-the-art gaming rig... YEAH, THERE'S some "modern" technology 🤣!

And... the even MORE ironic thing??? *I* am the one with the ancient P4 2.666GHz "boat-anchor" LMAO!

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

personal gaming studio

obobskivich wrote:

I like how "personal gaming studio" is just hedged in there with golf and hi-fi. 🤣

Hehe, attached are some (older) pics of *MY* personal "residence/home/redneck/hillbilly/gaming/music" studio 😀 Like I said, older... as my current PC rig(s) aren't in those pics.

obobskivich wrote:

IIx can't do 9.1; that's IIz (II is 5.1, IIx is 6.1/7.1, and IIz is 9.1). Honestly though I don't like PLII (any of its variants) - it doesn't do a good job even with Dolby Surround content imho (I'd rather have "true" PL1). IME Pro Logic II (and IIx with 6.1) tends to "narrow" everything onto the center channel, and if the center channel is removed from the equation you just get faint matrix output on the various surround speakers and a chopped-up output on the main L/R.

D'oh, you're right! It's IIz.

obobskivich wrote:

It very much strikes me as a "sound on all channels" feature to appease buyers who demand their 5.1 system plays everything in 5.1. Personally I'd rather see 4.0 stay 4.0 as well (I'm a fan of native reproduction). Having said all of that, there's some functional considerations that have to be taken into account:

Believe it or not, for games, I actually prefer "sound on all channels". Fellow audiophiles may brand me heretical 😁 , but it's only for games. For music, it's stereo all the way.

obobskivich wrote:

- Most (I should say "practically all") receivers/preamps do not digitize their multi-channel analog inputs, which means they can't perform ANY processing on those inputs. In most cases you should still get channel leveling but that's it - no delays, no DSP (which is where Pro Logic II, or whatever else, comes from), no bass management, etc.

So is it safe to say that PL IIx/IIz receivers do not upmix 5.1 to 7.1 from discrete analog inputs either?

obobskivich wrote:

- Most receivers will, however, gladly turn 2.0 into 2.1 or 5.1 into 5.0 or what-have-you through their bass management features. It usually just depends on how you have the subwoofer output setup. Older Yamaha models (and perhaps other makers) take it a step further by offering a "SW/Both" mode where the internal processor treats the 5.0 (or 2.0 or 4.0 or whatever) speakers as if there is no subwoofer, so the main L/R get run full-range and take LF low-pass for any channels with bass management enabled, but the subwoofer also takes LF low-pass and the LFE (when present).

- Regarding the ".1", with the exception of pre-mixed 5.1 content (like a DVD), the ".1" channel really doesn't "exist" - its just a low-pass for a subwoofer (or subwoofers) to provide re-enforcement to the main speakers. So with 4.0 content, jumping it up to 4.1 is only needed if the 4 main speakers need the additional bass. With pre-mixed 5.1 content there's potentially "unique" data on that channel (because its mixed at the studio with six channels), so you either need the subwoofer, or a processor that will roll that channel into another speaker for output (iirc its a requirement for stand-alone Dolby/DTS decoders to support this, for example if you take your 5.1 receiver and set it to "Subwoofer: No" the LFE channel should be played on the main L/R; the "gotcha" is that afaik most stand-alone DVD players will just discard the LFE channel for their L/R analog outputs).

Indeed. What concerns me more is actually the bass management. My speakers are full-range (well, almost. The 120Tis start to roll at 60Hz), so the sub won't sound if I'm using Aureal 3D sound cards.

obobskivich wrote:

- What about ".2" (and .3, .4, etc)? With the exception of some very exotic Harman equipment, and some Yamaha models, there is no .2 or .3 or what-have-you. It's just multiple parallel outputs to connect multiple subwoofers without the use of splitters. Harman has some very high end equipment (sold thru JBL Synthesis and Mark Levinson, and a cut-down (and bugged) version for the HK990 receiver) that will actually EQ and manage independent subwoofer channels on the output side - it still takes 5.1 or 6.1 or whatever from the source media, but it treats each subwoofer output as a separate channel and sets leveling, EQ, etc accordingly. The idea being to "even out" response for very large rooms (which is where you'll usually see JBL Synthesis and Levinson theaters). Yamaha's older CinemaDSP models often had Subwoofer-L and Subwoofer-R outputs, which do things a bit differently from that - if they're just being "fed" LFE content from a valid 5.1 (or whatever) source they'll output it in parallel. But when bass management is enabled, the L subwoofer is dedicated for all of the "left" channel speakers, and the R subwoofer for all of the "right" channel speakers. Yamaha's newer CinemaDSP models, that also feature YPAO, will usually have the subwoofer outputs labeled "Front" and "Back" - if I remember right they're more or less parallel outputs with independent level controls.

Wait, I remember reading somewhere that such .2 receivers have options to use the dual sub output channel: when playing movies (or other discrete multichannel sources), the dual sub will use the same .1 channel, thus, will sound identical (dual-mono). However, in stereo mode, each sub output channel will act as extension of the front L/R channel (stereo bass).

obobskivich wrote:

So where this leaves A3D 4.0 (or 4.0 from an SB Live! or whatever) is that it needs to be digitized in some manner (to allow processing), either through a stand-alone external encoder, or with a *very* expensive preamp/receiver that can digitize multi-channel inputs (the only two that I know for sure to do this are the Accuphase VX-700 and Mark Levinson No502; I vaguely want to say the McIntosh MX-151 and Denon A1HDCI may also support it, and there's probably a "little brother" to the 502 that wears Lexicon or Synthesis branding that may do it as well). I know the VX-700 does support 4.0/4.1 -> 6.1 program, but I don't know if it's explicitly handled through Pro Logic II. The Levinson has more DSP features than it knows what to do with (and has the pricetag to boot!). I'm not sure if any of those models are still in production either.

As far as external encoders, you'd be looking at something like the Creative DTS-610: http://us.store.creative.com/B002651ZEM/M/B002651ZEM.htm (it isn't in production anymore, but you can probably find them used with some looking)

Found none on ebay. I wonder why such external Dolby Digital Live encoder aren't being made anymore.

I wonder if it's possible to create a DIY DDL encoder using chips taken from old nForce motherboard, which is capable to accept up to 7.1 (or even 9.2) discrete analog channel. Too bad I understand jack shit about electronics.

(well, things like RMS and speaker impedance are within my understanding, but electronic circuitry is another thing)

Or alternatively, do DDL encoder chips exist?

obobskivich wrote:

If you went with the external encoder you'd just feed the digital output into your existing decoder/receiver/preamp and go from there.

Indeed. Would this device work?

obobskivich wrote:

I'm not sure what the DTS-610 would actually do with a quad input - you'd probably just get a dummy center channel (iirc the DTS specification doesn't actually allow for a 4.0 signal like AC-3 does).

I know you can usually find Dolby encoders (as in, actual Dolby Labs hardware designed for studios) on eBay - I do not, however, know if they would work for this feature. I've never played around with one, nor read much about them. 😊

Personally what I'd rather do with a 4.0 source, given that most soundcards with multi-channel output handle their own DSP and have mixer controls and so forth, is just feed that 4.0 signal into a multi-channel capable receiver/preamp and let it stay a 4.0 signal. Even if your receiver is setup for 5.1 or 7.1 output, and you take the 4.0 signal in, it'll just do a 1:1 and the un-needed speakers won't do anything. If bass management is a problem (e.g. the card won't output an LFE channel), you'll need some sort of external solution, like an active crossover or loudspeaker management system.

Generally I'll let the 4.0 sound card handle their own DSP, especially those related to Aureal 3D. What I really want are (in order of importance):
(1) bass management.
(2) center channel output that picks the "most centered sound" from front L/R channel. I think it requires receiver's DSP, but as long as I can convert the discrete multichannel analog to S/PDIF, the receiver will handle the rest as long as it's Dolby (instead of DTS).
(3) surround channel output that averages the front and rear-surround input. Again, this requires DSP, but the receiver should be able to handle it (4.0 to 7.1 upmix by DPL IIx) if I can convert the discrete analog to S/PDIF using DDL.

obobskivich wrote:

Some oddball "almost there" alternatives:

- A surround pre-amp from Parasound, the Halo P7 (http://www.parasound.com/halo/p7.php); it will take multi-channel analog inputs, and do bass management and leveling on them. It doesn't do any DSP though. I know McCormack Audio used to make, or perhaps still does make, a similar pre-amp as well.

Does it have S/PDIF output? Can it be used as DD Live encoder?

obobskivich wrote:

- If you took a 2.0 signal, or could get a 2.0 Lt/Rt signal (ideally), you could feed that into a decoder/processor to accomplish whatever simulacrum you like (CinemaDSP, Pro Logic, Logic7, etc).

- In theory you could take the 4.0 output into a miniDSP (or gang of them) and perform processing on that, but it still leaves you with the preamp/control question (and it isn't a "neat" solution) - you wouldn't need as complicated as a pre-amp as the Parasound though, and could just dump the output into your conventional multi-channel input on a receiver.

Do such mini DSPs exist?