What about those Blu-Ray discs? Did it really take off? I remember PS3 made big news with BR as the future of media - but seeing Xbox360 plays the same games as the PS3, without a Blu-Ray drive, did it really matter? What about it's impact on home movies? It's been a very long time since I bought a DVD movie. I don't have a Blu-Ray movie player. I just watch whatever movies the cable shows if I have the mood, and the cable broadcasts HD signals via HDMI.

I can't believe that MiniDiscs weren't adpopted as mainstream data storage media and became more popular (instead of just using them for music). MiniDiscs would have become the best computer data medium ever because of three main reasons:

1. they are VERY compact for being able to theoretically hold 650MB of data (MD-Data2 format)
2. they have a built in protective case
3. because of the protective case, they are reliable.

I don't know if technology advacements could have taken minidiscs to larger storage space like DVD's while maintaining that physical size though. I would be happy with them even today at a smaller storage size anyway. It would have been great to have an optical drive back in the 80's gain popularity to replace the floppy disk. I know it would have been pricey at first, but as it became more popular and mass produced, it could have became the media of choice...but one could only dream.

All the major electronics company giants (Panasonic (Matsushita), Sony, etc.) probably agreed to go with CD's as a standard since making MiniDiscs would cost a lot more to produce.

I had a MiniDisc player in my car for years (until MP3 players for cars became affordable)....using them was a million times better than CD's. Quality was great and if I had to throw one on the floor and switch it for another, I didn't have to worry about them getting scratched like a CD. I still have minidisc players and recorders for some music at home. I don't use them much, but I just love the media still and it's nice to record with Digital optical input.

Just the space you could save on a bookshelf having MiniDiscs instead of CD's in Jewel cases would make it worth paying a bit more for MiniDiscs.

Interesting info from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD_Data

Long live MiniDisc.

Malik wrote:

What about those Blu-Ray discs? Did it really take off? I remember PS3 made big news with BR as the future of media - but seeing Xbox360 plays the same games as the PS3, without a Blu-Ray drive, did it really matter? What about it's impact on home movies? It's been a very long time since I bought a DVD movie. I don't have a Blu-Ray movie player. I just watch whatever movies the cable shows if I have the mood, and the cable broadcasts HD signals via HDMI.

The amount of DRM present on commercial Blu-Ray discs is INSANE. x_x;

Basically, if you don't have a dedicated Blu-Ray Player that can connect to the internet, or don't mind spending $100+ on software which may or may not work to play them back on a computer, then you're pretty much stuck using not-quite-legit means to watch them, even if you have the ability to read Blu-Ray discs. I used to have a workaround with VLC Player, but said workaround stopped working out of the blue for arbitrary reasons, so I spent almost an entire day trying to find another workaround and ended up using a combination of XBMC with a plugin that runs another program that's usually used to rip through all the DRM present to make copies, but can be invoked for streaming purposes too, so it just does that, and even if this method continues to work, it's not going to remain free forever since the program that breaks through the DRM is going to cost $50 once it's out of beta.

Ironically, I think the massive amount of DRM is why Blu-Ray ultimately won out to HD-DVD, since HD-DVD only had a QUARTER of the amount of different DRM methods going on, and the television/movie/music industry is still very pro-DRM, even though numerous studies now have shown that DRM actually REDUCES net income from a product rather than boost it. :P

Ironically still, Sony seems to be on the path of redemption after once being pro-DRM. I use Sony's video editing software for ADG and it's not DRMed at all, save for needing to connect to a registration server to be activated after being installed, but then it never needs to connect to a server ever again to continue working. There's even a section somewhere on their website that explains their reasoning behind this. :B

Malik wrote:

What about those Blu-Ray discs? Did it really take off? I remember PS3 made big news with BR as the future of media - but seeing Xbox360 plays the same games as the PS3, without a Blu-Ray drive, did it really matter? What about it's impact on home movies? It's been a very long time since I bought a DVD movie. I don't have a Blu-Ray movie player. I just watch whatever movies the cable shows if I have the mood, and the cable broadcasts HD signals via HDMI.

The new Xbox will use Blu-ray as well, as well as the PlayStation 3 and 4. For the actual games, it's a boon on the PlayStation 3 imho - there are a lot of games on Xbox360 that have to come on multiple DVDs (and require switching the discs out to continue playing), whereas the PlayStation 3 just keeps trucking. It would be nice to see PC games go this route instead of shipping 2-3-4 DVDs that you have to install from. But I doubt that'll ever happen.

Blu-ray movies for at home I'm not sure about; I have a single player and a few movies here and there for it - I notice that it tends to be less expensive to buy "box set" kind of movies on Blu-ray, but for the most part the thing sits powered off and I keep using my trusty DVD player. At stores where I tend to find DVDs to purchase, they usually have a very small section (sometimes only an end-cap) for Blu-ray, and the selection is usually pretty limited; I'm not sure if that speaks to adoption or anything of that sort. I don't think it's a terrible format (that is, a 50GB disc the size of a CD that reads faster and is more durable is a great idea), but I think the politics surrounding it (DRM and such) have probably done it a disservice.

Gemini000 wrote:

The amount of DRM present on commercial Blu-Ray discs is INSANE. x_x;

Basically, if you don't have a dedicated Blu-Ray Player that can connect to the internet, or don't mind spending $100+ on software which may or may not work to play them back on a computer, then you're pretty much stuck using not-quite-legit means to watch them, even if you have the ability to read Blu-Ray discs. I used to have a workaround with VLC Player, but said workaround stopped working out of the blue for arbitrary reasons, so I spent almost an entire day trying to find another workaround and ended up using a combination of XBMC with a plugin that runs another program that's usually used to rip through all the DRM present to make copies, but can be invoked for streaming purposes too, so it just does that, and even if this method continues to work, it's not going to remain free forever since the program that breaks through the DRM is going to cost $50 once it's out of beta.

My Blu-ray player has no connection to the Internet (it is capable, but it is not hooked up) and has never had issues with disc playback - it's a Yamaha from 2008 or 2009 for whatever that's worth. It's only ever had "issues" with two discs - the movie Red it hangs on loading (a firmware update helped this along some, but it still hangs; in the disc's defense, it does warn you on the packaging and its initial splash screen that it will probably hang - I have no idea WHY this is so, but it is), and it doesn't like the 3D interactive menus on Pirates of the Caribbean (it probably doesn't have enough processing power to draw everything the menu wants, it loads the disc up pretty quickly, but the faster you can get it through the menus the better). Otherwise it's just as seamless as my DVD and HD-DVD (yeah, bought one of those) players - disc in and it loads right up. A lot of times just as quickly as it would load a DVD. Now of course it takes it longer to boot itself up than a DVD player, but that's not a huge problem in my book (the amount of time it takes to start itself up is usually at least as long as it takes me to pick a movie and find it).

On PC I tried HD-DVD playback a few years ago with the Xbox360 HD-DVD drive (side note: these are excellent external DVD drives in their own right - they were going pretty cheap a few years ago too), using Corel software - it worked "okay" (couldn't get multi-channel streams from the disc, scaling wasn't always perfect, etc) for a few months and then refused to play HD-DVDs due to DRM, so I just uninstalled it and kept-on using the hardware player. I've heard/read that Blu-ray playback is just as buggy - for example what you've said re-enforces that. It's nothing I've ever seriously pursued on the PC as a result.

Ironically, I think the massive amount of DRM is why Blu-Ray ultimately won out to HD-DVD, since HD-DVD only had a QUARTER of the amount of different DRM methods going on, and the television/movie/music industry is still very pro-DRM, even though numerous studies now have shown that DRM actually REDUCES net income from a product rather than boost it. 😜

Can you provide some clarification on this? I'm not doubting you - I just want to read more about it. 😀

VileRancour wrote:

... that's clearly the worst possible development in terms of data preservation and ownership. Gotta have a copy that isn't dependent on a 3rd-party service whose interests don't necessarily overlap with yours, and whose long-term availability is anything but guaranteed ...

Indeed. In due time many people will discover that, the hard way.

Look out barn people, you're about to be enveloped in a huge cloud of smug!!

Barn full of floppies, CDs and DVDs 😵

I'd really like to try out these little things (the USB version that is):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251397181360

Too bad the drives are so extremely costly (though have seen used scsi ones for £100).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_Density_Optical

As yet another option for long-term archival.
Hopefully one of all the different technologies will work... 😕

And then there are these, a little bit more affordable, though still not cheap for large collections...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-disc
http://www.mdisc.com

Found something online about a minidisc SCSI drive from 1995.

http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sony_MDH-10.html

And this...

http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sony_MDM-111.html
even better! Looks like a zip disk, but it isn't crappy. Apparently, has a SCSI interface and fits in a standard 3.5" bay. 140MB in 1995. Awesome.

Again...I can't believe this did not become a mainstream data storage medium.

I was working in the relevant industry when the HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray was going on. The main reason Sony won was studio support. They simply had more studios backing their format. All the technical details were irrelevant. The PS3 playing the discs was also a large contributor to its success.

What pissed me off the most is when you buy a BR pop it in and have to watch the "downloading is stealing" add. FFS I just paid for this!

Copy protections are a real issue when it comes to archiving and preservation for the future. Even GOG.com (and their customers) had to resort to hacks and cracks many times. So stupid...

obobskivich wrote:

Ironically, I think the massive amount of DRM is why Blu-Ray ultimately won out to HD-DVD, since HD-DVD only had a QUARTER of the amount of different DRM methods going on, and the television/movie/music industry is still very pro-DRM, even though numerous studies now have shown that DRM actually REDUCES net income from a product rather than boost it. :P

Can you provide some clarification on this? I'm not doubting you - I just want to read more about it. :happy:

There's no hard evidence to support this thought of mine. It's just a theory but one that holds merit given the DRM-happy attitudes of most of the top entertainment companies and the much smaller amount of DRM on HD-DVD compared to Blu-Ray. Well... that, and Blu-Ray discs are cheaper to produce and hold more data. :P

One thing I find fascinating though is that despite this, Blu-Ray has some incredibly lax region coding. There's only three region codes with Blu-Ray and about 75% of the commercial Blu-Ray discs out there are region-free, showing a special tri-hexagon symbol on their jewel cases with the letters A, B, and C in them to indicate compatibility with all three regions. Plus, it's only handled at the software level, which means you can bypass it easily, whereas with DVD, it's handled at the hardware level, meaning you can only change the region code so many times before the firmware will refuse to allow more changes.

retrofanatic wrote:

I can't believe that MiniDiscs weren't adpopted as mainstream data storage media and became more popular (instead of just using […]
Show full quote

I can't believe that MiniDiscs weren't adpopted as mainstream data storage media and became more popular (instead of just using them for music). MiniDiscs would have become the best computer data medium ever because of three main reasons:

1. they are VERY compact for being able to theoretically hold 650MB of data (MD-Data2 format)
2. they have a built in protective case
3. because of the protective case, they are reliable.

I would've loved to have a couple of those MD datadrives but then again, would've loved to have a stack of drives+disks of the caleb and sony MO drives as well (preferably external too 🤣 ) but as I haven't got any of those, ZIP drives and the diskettes will have to do.

Btw, did any of you guys actually build a retro-rig containing one of these special format floppy replacements?

Edit:
Actually, wouldn't it be a nice idea to write something about these drives for the wiki?

MD data would have been nice. Around 2004 there was an update to the standard called Hi-MD that could store 1GB of data, so with maybe a blue laser as opposed to red, you could get something like 5-10GB on it (I think that is the whole reason behind the name Blu Ray is that it uses blue wavelength lasers). But CDs and DVDs were already entrenched at that point.

MD never really took off in the US due to the SCMS copy protection on it, and Sony also used some check-in check-out system for putting music on it (you couldn't just copy MP3 files to it, you had to use their Magic Gate software or record the songs to the MD in real time like it was a casette).

If Sony hadn't become a content company as well as a hardware company, the restrictions on the device probably wouldn't have been as bad. As it was, it was not consumer friendly. But MD or something like it would have been ideal.

obobskivich wrote:

Ironically, I think the massive amount of DRM is why Blu-Ray ultimately won out to HD-DVD, since HD-DVD only had a QUARTER of the amount of different DRM methods going on, and the television/movie/music industry is still very pro-DRM, even though numerous studies now have shown that DRM actually REDUCES net income from a product rather than boost it. 😜

Can you provide some clarification on this? I'm not doubting you - I just want to read more about it. 😀

No, it wasn't the DRM it was Sony paying the content providers to release their films ONLY on Blu-Ray.When the last content provider for HD-DVD, MGM-Universal, gave in to Sony's underhanded bribery tactics and discontinued HD-DVD support that was the end for HD-DVD in spite of the fact that HD-DVD players were outselling Blu-Ray players by a wide margin. The DVD Forum had named HD-DVD as the successor to DVD but Sony took it on themselves to go around the DVD Forum by bribing everyone to stay away from HD-DVD. Consumers had also chosen HD-DVD over Blu-Ray, if sales of playback devices was any indication of consumer sentiment, but Sony didn't care about consumers they only cared about not losing another format war after Betamax was rejected in favor of VHS. It was a hollow victory for Sony, though, since digital distribution was already taking off and physical media was on it's way out.

Gemini000 wrote:

There's no hard evidence to support this thought of mine. It's just a theory but one that holds merit given the DRM-happy attitudes of most of the top entertainment companies and the much smaller amount of DRM on HD-DVD compared to Blu-Ray. Well... that, and Blu-Ray discs are cheaper to produce and hold more data. 😜

One thing I find fascinating though is that despite this, Blu-Ray has some incredibly lax region coding. There's only three region codes with Blu-Ray and about 75% of the commercial Blu-Ray discs out there are region-free, showing a special tri-hexagon symbol on their jewel cases with the letters A, B, and C in them to indicate compatibility with all three regions. Plus, it's only handled at the software level, which means you can bypass it easily, whereas with DVD, it's handled at the hardware level, meaning you can only change the region code so many times before the firmware will refuse to allow more changes.

I see. I've noticed that with the region stickers as well - I always thought it was to cut production costs on the content provider's end, instead of having to release 4-5-6 SKUs for the same product, they release one (and I've noticed quite a few newer Blu-ray titles have a plethora of language options).

On the "format war" front - I honestly never really took much notice; both of my players were bought on close-out (amazing what a format war coupled with a few giant electronics retailers going bust can do to hardware prices) and the media came later - HD-DVDs are surprisingly affordable where you can find them (complete brand new movies for a dollar or two in most cases), and Blu-ray (as I stated previously) tends to win on box sets over DVD. I think both players (the HD-DVD player definitely, I'm less sure on the Blu-ray player) have paid for themselves just in savings on movies I would've bought on DVD anyways, and beyond that I really don't bother with it. I will say that the Blu-ray discs themselves are much more durable than HD-DVD discs, and I wish the hard-coating process could be (or would be) applied to other optical media. 😦

The MD Data drive reminded me of something else ancient - anyone else remember Laserdisc drives for PCs (LV and LD ROM)? I've never actually owned one, but I've come across a few Sony models here and there over the years; more from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaserVision_Read_Only_Memory

If I'm remembering right, I also think these machines were featured in a Bond movie or two in the 1980s... 🤣

retrofanatic wrote:

I can't believe that MiniDiscs weren't adpopted as mainstream data storage media and became more popular (instead of just using […]
Show full quote

I can't believe that MiniDiscs weren't adpopted as mainstream data storage media and became more popular (instead of just using them for music). MiniDiscs would have become the best computer data medium ever because of three main reasons:

1. they are VERY compact for being able to theoretically hold 650MB of data (MD-Data2 format)
2. they have a built in protective case
3. because of the protective case, they are reliable.

I don't know if technology advacements could have taken minidiscs to larger storage space like DVD's while maintaining that physical size though. I would be happy with them even today at a smaller storage size anyway. It would have been great to have an optical drive back in the 80's gain popularity to replace the floppy disk. I know it would have been pricey at first, but as it became more popular and mass produced, it could have became the media of choice...but one could only dream.

All the major electronics company giants (Panasonic (Matsushita), Sony, etc.) probably agreed to go with CD's as a standard since making MiniDiscs would cost a lot more to produce.

I had a MiniDisc player in my car for years (until MP3 players for cars became affordable)....using them was a million times better than CD's. Quality was great and if I had to throw one on the floor and switch it for another, I didn't have to worry about them getting scratched like a CD. I still have minidisc players and recorders for some music at home. I don't use them much, but I just love the media still and it's nice to record with Digital optical input.

Just the space you could save on a bookshelf having MiniDiscs instead of CD's in Jewel cases would make it worth paying a bit more for MiniDiscs.

Interesting info from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD_Data

Long live MiniDisc.

Mini-disc.jpg

I can't believe the UMD drive used in the PSP never really got used for anything else. You could fit a dozen of those things in your pocket.

I will say that I've got a legit copy of bio shock 2 via Steam but it's such a pain in the ass to deal with the Games for Window Live BS that I don't bother with it. I can never remember the password for an account I don't use, 🤣. I think the only other games I have that use it are Shadowrun (Microsoft version, not the new one) and Fallout 3? I'm not sure why Fallout 3 would need it since there is no online or multiplayer component to that game. Makes it a pain to try and play. I think there must have been a copy without it, maybe that's only the Steam one that has it?

Looking at that spec sheet for MD data, maybe it's a good thing it didn't succeed, they list it as having a 500ms seek time. I think CD is faster than that.

sliderider wrote:

can't believe the UMD drive used in the PSP never really got used for anything else. You could fit a dozen of those things in your pocket.

Very good point sliderider. UMDs are great too because they have a protective plastic case built in just like the MiniDIsc. UMDs of course came out much later than MDs...UMDs may have my vote now over MDs. 🤣

snorg wrote:

Looking at that spec sheet for MD data, maybe it's a good thing it didn't succeed, they list it as having a 500ms seek time. I think CD is faster than that.

That would be better than a zip drive or floppy (well maybe not for a zip disk (i think it's 28ms or so)..also i think that the actual drive has more to do with the seek time...the point is that if MD did catch on, im sure more money would be put into R&D and engineering just like anything else in a competiitive market..i really dont think seek times would have stayed at 500ms. I wonder what seek times were for some of the first CD-ROMs produced (i think it may have even been before the CD caddies versions).

retrofanatic wrote:

snorg wrote:

Looking at that spec sheet for MD data, maybe it's a good thing it didn't succeed, they list it as having a 500ms seek time. I think CD is faster than that.

That would be better than a zip drive or floppy (well maybe not for a zip disk (i think it's 28ms or so)..also i think that the actual drive has more to do with the seek time...the point is that if MD did catch on, im sure more money would be put into R&D and engineering just like anything else in a competiitive market..i really dont think seek times would have stayed at 500ms. I wonder what seek times were for some of the first CD-ROMs produced (i think it may have even been before the CD caddies versions).

I'm pretty sure early CD drives had roughly the same access time, I might be wrong here but I don't think that the fastest drives ever had a random seek time more than say 200ms.

But yes, I agree, if MD had the money poured into it that other technologies did, it would have been more competitive. I am sure Sony must have had some role in killing it, they probably charged high licensing fees to other companies that wanted to make it, I don't think I ever saw non-Sony branded MD gear (but could be wrong here, it has been so long).

There was a narrow window where hard disk based MP3 players were in the 300-400 and up range that an affordable MD player that was also convenient to use would have captured a big portion of the market.
I still think there is a role for offline media, but these days we seem to be moving towards curated "app store" type experiences. I really like GOG and need to download all my games just in case they go offline, I don't think they or Steam are going to go out of business any time soon but GOG is a little more friendly to the consumer, if that ever were to happen (provided you downloaded everything first, the lack of DRM is highly appealing). With Steam you would be a little worse off, some things would not run well without it although I hope that if they ever went out of business they would release your library to you.