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First post, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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So, I'm building a mini-ITX system for my desk. Not a primary gaming system, but as a general-purpose (Office, browsing, multimedia player, etc), Windows XP-based system which is aimed to get the best AA and AF out of old Windows XP games (don't ask, it's just my pastime).

I recently purchased a PNY GeForce GTX 285 for the system. Alas, the seller sent me the wrong card: a GTX 280 instead of GTX 285.

I could return the item, but considering the distance and the high S/H cost between my country (Indonesia) and the United States, I'm not really sure if the return shipping cost is worth it.

(1) Performance-wise, I don't really mind, since the performance difference between GTX 280 and GTX 285 is miniscule, especially since I'm going to use this card for old games anyway. Stuff like Warcraft III, MiG Alley (hey, it runs on XP! 😀 ), Crimson Skies, MDK (also runs on XP! 😀 ), Neverwinter Nights 1, and Emperor: Battle for Dune.

(2) I don't seems to have to worry about size either, since according to nVidia website, both GTX 285 and GTX 280 have exactly the same size (10.5" long, 4.376" wide, and dual-slot thick). So a GTX 280 would fit nicely into the Cubitek Mini Cube mini-ITX casing I'm planning to buy.

(3) It seems I don't have to worry about heat either, since both cards have exactly the same 105 C maximum GPU temperature.

(4) Power worries me a bit. The GTX 280 consumes a maximum of 236 watts, while the GTX 285 does a maximum of 204 watts. How much does 32 watts matter in a mini-ITX system? If I'm using a 550 watt PSU, does it mean I cannot plug as many as USB devices compared to if I were using GTX 285?

(5) Is there any other things that I overlooked? Also, this is PNY video card. Does PNY strictly adhere to nVidia-published specifications? Because, judging from the nVidia-published specs, there ain't much difference between GTX 280 and GTX 285. Could the same thing be said about PNY cards?

(6) If you were in my shoes, would you accept the GTX 280, or would you spend another US $50 for the return shipping cost to get a GTX 285?

Update: the problem with the seller has been settled. 😀

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Update: I have settled a partial refund with the seller. Originally she offered me to return the item, and she'll refund everyth […]
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Update: I have settled a partial refund with the seller. Originally she offered me to return the item, and she'll refund everything; the item's price, the S/H cost, and the return S/H cost. But frankly, I really don't have the time for it - not to mention all the hassles.

As such, I asked her a partial refund calculated by the price (and S/H cost) of another GTX 280 on ebay.

Here's what I told her:

How about partial refund? So I keep the card and you give me a partial refund to compensate for my loss. Because it's not only about the money, it's about all the hassles of sending the card back and buying another card, etc, which shouldn't have happened..

As I have told you, if you had named the item correctly, I would have bought this GTX 280 instead instead of yours:
http://tinyurl.com/mtb6jz9

I would have paid the appropriate amount for a GTX 280 card (as opposed to a GTX 285), and you would have kept your card, so it would have been a win-win solution. By the way, even if I didn't buy your card on the first place, some other buyer may have bought your card if you priced them more appropriately.

The price of that card is $95.99, and the S/H cost, which is lower than yours, is $32.29. The import charges he charges to his customer is $23.74, which is also lower than yours, but I'll let it pass.

On the other hand, the price of your card is $150,and the S/H cost is $54.21. So the total (ignoring import charges) is $204.21, which I don't mind spending on a truly new (even though open box) GTX 285, mind you.

If I bought that GTX 280 instead, I would have spend a total of US $128.28. Again, ignoring the import charges which is lower than yours.

So I think it'll only fair if you give me a partial refund of ($204.21 - $128.28) = US $75.93.

I'm already ignoring your higher import charges in this calculation, mind you. I'll still lose about nine dollars, but like I said, I'll let it pass.

If send me a partial refund of the US $75.93 based on the calculation above, then I'll call it a day. I'll close the case I've opened on ebay for this matter, and I'll even give you a positive feedback.
,
A GTX 280 is hotter and consumes more power than a GTX 285, so I'll have more troubles in cooling my system (a mini-ITX case for a legacy Windows XP system). But I can live with the card if the price is more appropriate.

Well she agreed, and the partial refund is being processed through ebay's resolution center. Not quite a bad deal, eh? I'm being lenient this time, because it's clear that the case is the result of pure carelessness instead of malicious intention. She's also quite cooperative.

(Mind you, I have seen ebay sellers giving multiple names to their items, so that the said items would appear on search result intended for other items.)

Case closed, then. Of course, it doesn't have to stop us from discussing old 3D games on new video cards. 😉

Last edited by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman on 2014-06-17, 18:46. Edited 1 time in total.

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 1 of 41, by luckybob

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I would at least get a partial refund. as for the differences between the two cards:

http://www.hwcompare.com/1386/geforce-gtx-280 … ce-gtx-285-1gb/

the 285 is mostly a die-shrunk 280. less power 10% more performance, etc.

It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes.

Reply 2 of 41, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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luckybob wrote:

I would at least get a partial refund. as for the differences between the two cards:

http://www.hwcompare.com/1386/geforce-gtx-280 … ce-gtx-285-1gb/

the 285 is mostly a die-shrunk 280. less power 10% more performance, etc.

Ah I see. Thanks!

Anyway, I didn't look at it carefully. Yes, it's a GTX 280 instead of a GTX 285, but instead of PNY, I actually got an EVGA GTX 280 (although it's a basic 280 instead of superclocked 280). But I guess it's a good news, right?

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 3 of 41, by retrofanatic

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At least get a partial refund...I have 2 evga gtx 280s in an sli setup and I am very happy with them but having gtx 285s would be better..but not by much at all.

If the seller sent the wrong card why are you on the hook for the shipping charge? That's not fair for you.

Reply 4 of 41, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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retrofanatic wrote:

At least get a partial refund...I have 2 evga gtx 280s in an sli setup and I am very happy with them but having gtx 285s would be better..but not by much at all.

If the seller sent the wrong card why are you on the hook for the shipping charge? That's not fair for you.

Well, the seller accepts returns, but it's the buyer who must pay for the return S/H cost. Almost all ebay sellers are just like that.

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 5 of 41, by retrofanatic

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Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
retrofanatic wrote:

At least get a partial refund...I have 2 evga gtx 280s in an sli setup and I am very happy with them but having gtx 285s would be better..but not by much at all.

If the seller sent the wrong card why are you on the hook for the shipping charge? That's not fair for you.

Well, the seller accepts returns, but it's the buyer who must pay for the return S/H cost. Almost all ebay sellers are just like that.

Yes, but this is not a return because the item was damaged, or something like that, it is a totally different item than what you ordered, so I think you have a case, but I think it would be a big hassle....like you said...takes too long to ship between US and Indonesia sometimes. If the card works fine, it's fine I guess because the card is almost the same (performance-wise).

Can I ask about how much you paid for the card? (If it's less than $50, I think you got a great deal anyway).

Oh...btw...that mini ITX system you put together looks awesome...good job.

Reply 6 of 41, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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retrofanatic wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
retrofanatic wrote:

At least get a partial refund...I have 2 evga gtx 280s in an sli setup and I am very happy with them but having gtx 285s would be better..but not by much at all.

If the seller sent the wrong card why are you on the hook for the shipping charge? That's not fair for you.

Well, the seller accepts returns, but it's the buyer who must pay for the return S/H cost. Almost all ebay sellers are just like that.

Yes, but this is not a return because the item was damaged, or something like that, it is a totally different item than what you ordered, so I think you have a case, but I think it would be a big hassle....like you said...takes too long to ship between US and Indonesia sometimes. If the card works fine, it's fine I guess because the card is almost the same (performance-wise).

Can I ask about how much you paid for the card? (If it's less than $50, I think you got a great deal anyway).

US $150 🙁

retrofanatic wrote:

Oh...btw...that mini ITX system you put together looks awesome...good job.

Thanks! 😀 Although I haven't finished collecting all the components. The hardest part is probably the Cubitek Mini Cube and the Asus motherboard.

I'm going to get the Dell P1914S 5:4 monitor this weekend. Why 1280x1024? Because I need small footprint for everything. Besides, it's not a primary gaming system, just a system for daily work, but with exceptional gaming capability - especially old games.

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 7 of 41, by SquallStrife

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Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

(4) Power worries me a bit. The GTX 280 consumes a maximum of 236 watts, while the GTX 285 does a maximum of 204 watts. How much does 32 watts matter in a mini-ITX system? If I'm using a 550 watt PSU, does it mean I cannot plug as many as USB devices compared to if I were using GTX 285?

If it's a good brand 550W PSU (Corsair HX, Antec Earthwatts, Seasonic) then power won't be an issue at all.

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Reply 8 of 41, by obobskivich

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Agreed that it isn't that big of an issue - kind of a bummer that it isn't "as advertised" but if it works properly it should still be a stellar performer. The 285 was a "refresh" of the 280 if I remember right; little bit less power, little bit more performance, and probably around the same price new. 280 is still a powerful card - it was nVidia's top dog when it was new.

EVGA vs PNY, I wouldn't worry too much about - both make decent cards (and if it's the reference board, it's basically the same thing from either, just different stickers/graphics). If it's got warranty from either it should be well covered.

Reply 9 of 41, by MaxWar

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Just contact seller and politely ask for a little Something back because you did not get the item ordered.
At least that is what I would try.

FM sound card comparison on a Grand Scale!!
The Grand OPL3 Comparison Run.

Reply 10 of 41, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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obobskivich wrote:

Agreed that it isn't that big of an issue - kind of a bummer that it isn't "as advertised" but if it works properly it should still be a stellar performer. The 285 was a "refresh" of the 280 if I remember right; little bit less power, little bit more performance, and probably around the same price new. 280 is still a powerful card - it was nVidia's top dog when it was new.

EVGA vs PNY, I wouldn't worry too much about - both make decent cards (and if it's the reference board, it's basically the same thing from either, just different stickers/graphics). If it's got warranty from either it should be well covered.

Indeed. The performance difference doesn't worry me, it's the heat that does. 🤣

I mean, the max temp is the same, but how about the ambient temp? I hope the difference doesn't really matter.

MaxWar wrote:

Just contact seller and politely ask for a little Something back because you did not get the item ordered.
At least that is what I would try.

I opened a case, still no response at all.

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 11 of 41, by obobskivich

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I'd agree with MaxWar + others about asking for a small refund if possible, just because of the mix-up (there's probably someone else who just got the PNY card and is going "what...??" as well). On the temps, should be pretty similar, here's an Anand review of the GTX 285 which will include comparisons to the 280:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2711
And another from LegitReviews that has more temp/power measurements:
http://www.legitreviews.com/pny-xfx-geforce-g … d-reviews_915/9 (linked right to temps+power)

Doesn't look like that huge of a difference overall (I'm guessing the XFX card in the LR test is factory overclocked).

Reply 12 of 41, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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obobskivich wrote:
I'd agree with MaxWar + others about asking for a small refund if possible, just because of the mix-up (there's probably someone […]
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I'd agree with MaxWar + others about asking for a small refund if possible, just because of the mix-up (there's probably someone else who just got the PNY card and is going "what...??" as well). On the temps, should be pretty similar, here's an Anand review of the GTX 285 which will include comparisons to the 280:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2711
And another from LegitReviews that has more temp/power measurements:
http://www.legitreviews.com/pny-xfx-geforce-g … d-reviews_915/9 (linked right to temps+power)

Doesn't look like that huge of a difference overall (I'm guessing the XFX card in the LR test is factory overclocked).

Thanks for the info, so it's merely about 2 to 4 degree difference. Fortunately the Cubitek Mini Cube has a lot of empty space.

A partial refund it is, then. 😀

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 13 of 41, by retrofanatic

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Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
retrofanatic wrote:

Can I ask about how much you paid for the card? (If it's less than $50, I think you got a great deal anyway).

US $150 🙁

Oh well...it's not so bad...it will pay for itself over a long time of use in winXP or win7 I'm sure...it's a top performer on an XP platform for it's time. I got very lucky and I got both of my GTX280's for less than $80 for the pair, but I probably would have gladly paid up to $80 for each.

I played Quake 4 on my GTX280 setup and let me tell you...it was smooth as silk....I'm sure any difference playing the same on a GTX285 would be negligable.

Reply 14 of 41, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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retrofanatic wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
retrofanatic wrote:

Can I ask about how much you paid for the card? (If it's less than $50, I think you got a great deal anyway).

US $150 🙁

Oh well...it's not so bad...it will pay for itself over a long time of use in winXP or win7 I'm sure...it's a top performer on an XP platform for it's time. I got very lucky and I got both of my GTX280's for less than $80 for the pair, but I probably would have gladly paid up to $80 for each.

I played Quake 4 on my GTX280 setup and let me tell you...it was smooth as silk....I'm sure any difference playing the same on a GTX285 would be negligable.

Amen.

Although, well, considering the purpose of the system, I would play Quake 2 instead. 😉

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 15 of 41, by nforce4max

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I once had such a setup and average load wasn't bud till the coils go bad, found their average performance was only slightly below that of a gtx 460. Overclocking wise if it were not for the vrm and cooling it can run with the shader at 1.8ghz.

On a far away planet reading your posts in the year 10,191.

Reply 16 of 41, by F2bnp

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150$ is quite a lot for a GTX 280. You can buy these second hand for 60-70 euro here! I'm guessing that's because of shipping.

Whatever the case, a partial refund is something you should press on. If the seller isn't straight with you, I'd take it straight to ebay, you have a case here. I don't understand the "pay the shipping charges" when you're returning something that's quite a different from what you paid for.

Reply 17 of 41, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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F2bnp wrote:

150$ is quite a lot for a GTX 280. You can buy these second hand for 60-70 euro here! I'm guessing that's because of shipping.

No. the US $150 is for the item's price alone. The S/H cost is about US $54 or so.

F2bnp wrote:

Whatever the case, a partial refund is something you should press on. If the seller isn't straight with you, I'd take it straight to ebay, you have a case here. I don't understand the "pay the shipping charges" when you're returning something that's quite a different from what you paid for.

This was the latest reply from the seller.

"okay great I wasnt aware that the video card wasnt what it said on the box can u send it back and i'll refund u"

I replied her message, complaining about her return policy, which only covers the item's price and not the S/H cost (not to mention the return S/H cost), and I've never heard anything since the jumbled message above.

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 18 of 41, by archsan

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Kreshna, have you tried local marketplace/forums? I've seen at least a couple boxed GTX285 for around $90 (they look like new) not so long ago (at kaskus.co.id). Cheaper shipping costs, insurance included, also less risky because usually the seller would offer 3-7 days personal warranty.

International shipping costs usually isn't something that's covered by individual sellers' return policy on ebay. Reputable manufacturers should be willing to replace brand new items, no matter what the shipping costs. I've had a replacement 3d space mouse sent to me via FedEx a few years ago, direct from 3Dconnexion USA. The ebay seller wasn't very helpful, but the company's tech support was (I showed a video demonstrating the problem and he decided to send me a new one, expedited). Of course this is irrelevant with used/discontinued items though, I just wanted to give you an illustration here. I've had another case with full refund but that was a very low cost item. EDIT: But your case is a misinformation, not a failure, so yeah, you should press on as F2bnp said.

Also, in case you have this resolved well, maybe you want to check something like the new GTX 750 Ti? I mean, GTX295/480/570 performance at 60W TDP! Great for ITX builds. Should be good for D3D/OpenGL games that you could run in XP, right? Or maybe you've done your research on this one, and you found the GT200 chips (aka the GTX 200 series) do fare better with older titles? Let me know on that one, I'm curious. 😀

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Reply 19 of 41, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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archsan wrote:

Kreshna, have you tried local marketplace/forums? I've seen at least a couple boxed GTX285 for around $90 (they look like new) not so long ago (at kaskus.co.id). Cheaper shipping costs, insurance included, also less risky because usually the seller would offer 3-7 days personal warranty.

I usually avoid local forums unless I can meet the seller in person and pick up the item myself. Don't mean to berate my own country, but heard a lot of fraud-related stories regarding to online shopping. Sometimes the fraud method is just so creative that it's actually funny even to the victim. 🤣 It's most unfortunate my beloved Indonesia is still a third-world country nonetheless, but still, there are always a few good men who're working on it.

Nevertheless, I'll put local market into consideration for future purchases.

(although, I have yet to find a local seller who sells Cubitek Mini Cube mini-ITX case 😵 )

archsan wrote:

International shipping costs usually isn't something that's covered by individual sellers' return policy on ebay. Reputable manufacturers should be willing to replace brand new items, no matter what the shipping costs. I've had a replacement 3d space mouse sent to me via FedEx a few years ago, direct from 3Dconnexion USA. The ebay seller wasn't very helpful, but the company's tech support was (I showed a video demonstrating the problem and he decided to send me a new one, expedited). Of course this is irrelevant with used/discontinued items though, I just wanted to give you an illustration here. I've had another case with full refund but that was a very low cost item. EDIT: But your case is a misinformation, not a failure, so yeah, you should press on as F2bnp said.

Oh, I would. I can live with a GTX 280, but not with its price - which seems to be inflated by its fallacious item name and description. If I knew it was a GTX 280, I would have bought this one instead.

archsan wrote:

Also, in case you have this resolved well, maybe you want to check something like the new GTX 750 Ti? I mean, GTX295/480/570 performance at 60W TDP! Great for ITX builds. Should be good for D3D/OpenGL games that you could run in XP, right? Or maybe you've done your research on this one, and you found the GT200 chips (aka the GTX 200 series) do fare better with older titles? Let me know on that one, I'm curious. 😀

But of course! I choose GTX 280 because I already knew the 310M in my Lenovo B460 laptop works with old XP games like Mig Alley (a 1999 game, mind you) and Crimson Skies. As such, same-generation (Tesla) but more powerful card like GTX 280 or 285 should also work.

The next experiment would be 760. If the card works flawlessly with such older games mentioned above, then a Titan would also work.

PS: I said the next experiment, I didn't say when. 😉

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.