I think the "support" here comes in terms of patches and optimization for better performance of newer technologies. Unless they change the x86 architecture I'm pretty sure 7 will still be OK with newer silicon.

(there's also the point that we are close to the miniaturization limit and we may need a completely new technology for CPUs on a mid-near future, but that's for another topic)

Snayperskaya wrote:

I think the "support" here comes in terms of patches and optimization for better performance of newer technologies. Unless they change the x86 architecture I'm pretty sure 7 will still be OK with newer silicon.

There is a whole lot more to a computer system than just the CPU.
Having an x86-compatible CPU is no guarantee whatsoever that the machine is in any way a Windows-PC as we know it.

Simple example: Macs. They use the same CPUs, but different firmware and various other peripherals make them quite different from a regular PC.
They can only run Windows via Bootcamp, which includes a BIOS replacement and custom drivers. Windows will not run out-of-the-box.

More vintage examples of not-quite PC-compatible x86 machines include the IBM PCjr, various Tandy models and the Philips : YES.

Scali wrote:

There is a whole lot more to a computer system than just the CPU. Having an x86-compatible CPU is no guarantee whatsoever that t […]
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Snayperskaya wrote:

I think the "support" here comes in terms of patches and optimization for better performance of newer technologies. Unless they change the x86 architecture I'm pretty sure 7 will still be OK with newer silicon.

There is a whole lot more to a computer system than just the CPU.
Having an x86-compatible CPU is no guarantee whatsoever that the machine is in any way a Windows-PC as we know it.

Simple example: Macs. They use the same CPUs, but different firmware and various other peripherals make them quite different from a regular PC.
They can only run Windows via Bootcamp, which includes a BIOS replacement and custom drivers. Windows will not run out-of-the-box.

More vintage examples of not-quite PC-compatible x86 machines include the IBM PCjr, various Tandy models and the Philips : YES.

Are those machines PC-AT compatible? My comment was based on them, even though I didn't mentioned it.

Snayperskaya wrote:

Are those machines PC-AT compatible? My comment was based on them, even though I didn't mentioned it.

What does PC-AT compatible have to do with anything? You think you can run Windows 7 or 8 on any PC-AT compatible machine? Guess again.
That was exactly my point.

All mentioned machines did run DOS though.

Scali wrote:

What does PC-AT compatible have to do with anything? You think you can run Windows 7 or 8 on any PC-AT compatible machine? Guess […]
Show full quote

Snayperskaya wrote:

Are those machines PC-AT compatible? My comment was based on them, even though I didn't mentioned it.

What does PC-AT compatible have to do with anything? You think you can run Windows 7 or 8 on any PC-AT compatible machine? Guess again.
That was exactly my point.

All mentioned machines did run DOS though.

There are some limits on how low/high you get your OS/system, even if your hardware met the requirements. Do you remember any case where the CPU was the cause of the incompatibility?

Scali wrote:

Simple example: Macs. They use the same CPUs, but different firmware and various other peripherals make them quite different from a regular PC.
They can only run Windows via Bootcamp, which includes a BIOS replacement and custom drivers. Windows will not run out-of-the-box.

Current versions of Windows will run on Macs out-of-the-box since they fully support UEFI booting and GUID partitioning. These days Bootcamp is only needed for a handful of device drivers for things like the camera. A modern Macintosh is basically a 64-bit x86 machine with a custom UEFI firmware (it can natively read HFS file systems for example).

The back tracking of Skylake support on Windows 7/8 is pretty surprising though. The drivers have already been written! Windows 8 does have native XHCI support and should support installation from those ports without a problem. Windows 7 requires that the drivers be slip-streamed, most modern motherboard manuals provide instructions on how to do so. Of course you can avoid the issue entirely if you bought a board with trusty PS/2 mouse and keyboard ports 😜.

NJRoadfan wrote:

Current versions of Windows will run on Macs out-of-the-box since they fully support UEFI booting and GUID partitioning. These days Bootcamp is only needed for a handful of device drivers for things like the camera. A modern Macintosh is basically a 64-bit x86 machine with a custom UEFI firmware (it can natively read HFS file systems for example).

I know Apple had EFI (not UEFI iirc) long before PCs did, but last time I looked, their version was not compatible with Windows.
At the very least the older x86 Macs aren't compatible with Windows out-of-the-box (even the 64-bit ones).
I wouldn't know about the latest ones, I don't keep track of Mac hardware.

NJRoadfan wrote:

The back tracking of Skylake support on Windows 7/8 is pretty surprising though.

Are they backtracking then? From what I read, it only applies to future Intel CPUs. Apparently this article claims that new Skylake devices are only supported when specifically certified by Microsoft though.

Scali wrote:

I know Apple had EFI (not UEFI iirc) long before PCs did, but last time I looked, their version was not compatible with Windows.
At the very least the older x86 Macs aren't compatible with Windows out-of-the-box (even the 64-bit ones).
I wouldn't know about the latest ones, I don't keep track of Mac hardware.

Earlier Macs had problems with EFI and booting Windows, mostly the "32-bit EFI on 64-bit" machines from 2007-08 or so. Current machines aren't nearly as bad.

Are they backtracking then? From what I read, it only applies to future Intel CPUs. Apparently this article claims that new Skylake devices are only supported when specifically certified by Microsoft though.

From: https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2 … con-innovation/

Through July 17, 2017, Skylake devices on the supported list will also be supported with Windows 7 and 8.1. During the 18-month support period, these systems should be upgraded to Windows 10 to continue receiving support after the period ends. After July 2017, the most critical Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 security updates will be addressed for these configurations, and will be released if the update does not risk the reliability or compatibility of the Windows 7/8.1 platform on other devices.

It's just FUD to scare and herd the cattle into the Win X corral ASAP.

alexanrs wrote:

... I wonder if you can just slipstream the USB3 drivers into the media and be done with it ...

Yes, that works OK. There are also unorthodox ways to install W7 on Skylake, see here.

TELVM wrote:

It's just FUD to scare and herd the cattle into the Win X corral ASAP.

Do you enjoy being so bitter?

Edit: To put it more nicely: Your talk on heat dissipation and power is great, I think you're a great contributor, but why the constant hyperbole and condescension on Microsoft topics?

I can't speak for TELVM, but I see no problem with calling Microsoft on their antics every time they leverage their market share to coerce customers into an upgrade purchase.

gdjacobs wrote:

I can't speak for TELVM, but I see no problem with calling Microsoft on their antics every time they leverage their market share to coerce customers into an upgrade purchase.

That is just fine, as long as we're facts-based and objective about it. But language like "herd the cattle" is far from constructive, it's just plain arrogant.

It's this kind of disposition that makes non-tech-folk think their IT helpdesk staff are jerks, and thus treat them like jerks.

Well, in this case I think their poor communication, or more properly the way they communicate poorly, is at least very self serving and possibly deceptive. It would be more honest for them to be complete and fulsome about their support plans.

gdjacobs wrote:

Well, in this case I think their poor communication, or more properly the way they communicate poorly, is at least very self serving and possibly deceptive. It would be more honest for them to be complete and fulsome about their support plans.

What have Microsoft done that they said they would not do? What have they not done that they said they would do?

The end-of-support dates have not changed.
The meanings of "mainstream support" and "extended support" have not changed.

The only thing that has changed, is that now more than ever, poorly-researched, sensational click-bait articles will find their way to the front page of Reddit faster than the boring truth. People LIKE being outraged. People like being outraged in a group even more. People absolutely love being cool edgy outsiders outraged at an otherwise popular target.

Intel drops ancient USB stack from their chipset, Microsoft doesn't go out of their way to re-issue installation media of old OSes to account for this. This somehow got mutilated to Microsoft doing something to Windows 7, because ad revenue 🤣.

Rumors say that the next 'upgrade suggestion' may look like this:

A quote like the following would be great.

Due to the removal of legacy USB controller hardware, some install methods may be unavailable with Windows versions previous to Windows 10 on computers using the Skylake platform. For this reason, the Skylake platform is officially supported only on Windows 10 or newer.

This is what I meant by fulsome and complete. Action and reasoning. Point me to an MS document which provides both and I will be satisfied.

gdjacobs wrote:

A quote like the following would be great.

Due to the removal of legacy USB controller hardware, some install methods may be unavailable with Windows versions previous to Windows 10 on computers using the Skylake platform. For this reason, the Skylake platform is officially supported only on Windows 10 or newer.

This is what I meant by fulsome and complete. Action and reasoning. Point me to an MS document which provides both and I will be satisfied.

You still haven't explained why Microsoft should apologise for Intel's decisions.

I never talked about apologizing. If Microsoft has a technical reason behind their support decision, I feel they're completely justified. I don't expect Microsoft to re-engineer old releases of their software. I merely would like Microsoft to clarify their decision and ideally communicate the reasoning behind it.

gdjacobs wrote:

I never talked about apologizing. If Microsoft has a technical reason behind their support decision, I feel they're completely justified. I don't expect Microsoft to re-engineer old releases of their software. I merely would like Microsoft to clarify their decision and ideally communicate the reasoning behind it.

From the link posted earlier:
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2 … con-innovation/

Windows 7 was designed nearly 10 years ago before any x86/x64 SOCs existed. For Windows 7 to run on any modern silicon, device drivers and firmware need to emulate Windows 7’s expectations for interrupt processing, bus support, and power states- which is challenging for WiFi, graphics, security, and more. As partners make customizations to legacy device drivers, services, and firmware settings, customers are likely to see regressions with Windows 7 ongoing servicing.

We want to help our customers prepare for their Windows 10 upgrade. To do that, we will deliver a list of specific new Skylake devices we will support to run Windows 7 and Windows 8.1. This approach ensures our customers can upgrade now to new devices their employees will love while preparing for a Windows 10 upgrade. We will post this list next week and it will continue to be updated as we work closely with our partners. For the listed systems, along with our OEM partners, we will perform special testing to help future proof customers’ investments, ensure regular validation of Windows Updates with the intent of reducing potential regressions including security concerns, and ensure all drivers will be on Windows Update with published BIOS/UEFI upgrading tools, which will help unlock the security and power management benefits of Windows 10 once the systems are upgraded.

I think that about covers it, don't you?
TL;DR:
Modern hardware needs updates to drivers for legacy functionality on legacy OSes (to emulate legacy behaviour on new hardware). This may lead to issues. Hence, MS tests drivers with legacy OSes and publishes a list of hardware that will work properly with legacy OSes/drivers, and on which Microsoft will give continued support for the lifetime of these OSes.

Yeah, it's a real horror running 7, oh wait, it's not.