Which one? Mine, or SoundFX's?

DosFreak wrote:

Was wondering if anyone has had DOOM engine games crash in NT4/2K after using CLI2NOP? It works perfectly for me...

Well you're the first I know to claim it "works perfectly".

Everyone else has said the same thing: Works for a while, then crashes at random times. Having said that, most examples I heard about were from BUILD games.

You might also ask Vlad about this. What's the longest period of time that you played before quitting?

BTW, it's against the law to play the original DOOM on Win2k. You're supposed to play a source port. Don't make me hit you with a big stick.

Nah, it's just that some DOOM engine games don't have a port. Ex. Strife, Dark Forces.

I was using Snover's CLI2NOP and it works "fine" for Doom engine games. Nothing else.

RaR! I R T3H MAST0Z0R! Actually not, since I did null + 1 work on that. But still, if it works better...😜

Really, the whole CLI thing needs a long-term fix for W2K users, because I am *not* upgrading to XP. Ever. Period. End-of-story.

DosFreak wrote:

...some DOOM engine games don't have a port. Ex. Strife, Dark Forces.

Well, I thought Dark Forces was an "original" engine. Was it based on the DOOM source code?

As far as Strife is concerned that's true. That game is just crying out for a source-port/3D-enhancement. There's less emphasis on action so there's a lot more time to notice all the chunky graphics.

The closest thing I've heard to a port is VAVOOM.

It uses his existing DOOM source-port as a base. Not fully functional (character interaction is broken), but it's better than hoping the source is released (which will probably never happen).

Sometimes I wonder if these companies even still HAVE the source for these old programs.

Nicht Sehr Gut wrote:

Well, I thought Dark Forces was an "original" engine. Was it based on the DOOM source code?

You're right. It was. They developed a new engine called "Jedi" which is similar to Doom's engine and brings new functions such as jump, crouch, look down or up. The Jedi Engine supports full 3D objects, a realistic lighting model, atmospheric effects (haze, fog, etc.), gouraud shading, animating textures, 3D viewing angles, and more.

"Unlike the DOOM engine, the 3D engine in Dark Forces (the "Jedi Engine") allows for one vertical level to be placed over another. Additionally, it had a large variety of textures, and allowed for different palettes for each mission, all of which contributed to differentiating one mission from another. And the 3D engine supported atmospheric effects like fogging (which was exploited rather well in the Gromas Mine mission). It had its own scripting language for controlling elevators, moving walls, and so on, which gave level designers a lot of flexibility.

While Dark Forces' 3D engine, called the Jedi engine, is insignificant in comparison to those of the true-3D games made now, it is superior to those of many of the other games of its era. Dark Forces, like DOOM, is a pseudo-3D game. It utilizes three-dimensional projections of a two-dimensional map to simulate three-dimensional structures, and it use sprites to represent the characters in the game. Unlike DOOM and most of its clones, however, Dark Forces allows multiple overlapping stories in its architecture; this is accomplished by stacking two dimensional maps upon each other. The ability to have overlapping floors distinguished Dark Forces significantly from similar games as it allowed Dark Forces to have much more ambitious and creative level designs. Another aspect of the 3D engine which was generaly unique at the time was its support for atmospheric effects like fog. The engine even had its own scripting language to control the motion of floor sectors and walls; this allowed some rather complex motions to be defined. And, although most of the engine was only pseudo-3D, it allowed for true 3D objects in the game which were used to represent gun turrets, welding arms, and tie fighters among other things. Finally, Dark Forces engine allowed large open areas and tall structures, something other engines sometimes had difficulty with. Open areas were especially a weak point of other games, and many games today still cannot simulate the kind of open, outdoor expanses that Dark Forces could handle.

The gameplay engine in Dark Forces was also distinctive. For one thing, it allowed the player to jump and to crouch. Crouching, something not available in the DOOM/Quake series until Quake II three years after Dark Forces, especially increased gameplay flexibility and allowed for more strategic play. The player could also look and aim up and down, something necessitated by the multilevel design. The controls were not entirely realistic in that they responded almost too fast, which, while not simulating reality very well, greatly aids gameplay. On the other hand, the engine was realistic in points such as deducting health points for high falls depending on their height."

Mattias Welander, a prominent Dark Forces hacker, had started on a Direct3D version of the JEDI engine, called Dark3D, but gave up several months ago. Don't worry though, I'm working on digging up screenshots of the WIP project so we can all drool.

There was only one other game that used the JEDI engine - Outlaws. (It was fairly modified, but yes, it was the JEDI engine.)

Snover wrote:

Sometimes I wonder if these companies even still HAVE the source for these old programs.

Sometimes they don't! Other times, they're on ancient backup hardware that doesn't work anymore, etc. The hunt for the BLOOD source is a classic case which Nicht could tell you about, but I've always thought they just lied and said they didn't have it in that case.

In other news, TransFusion saw a recent update. 😀 http://www.planetblood.com/qblood/

Wow. Long post. *doesn't read it*

It would be useful if that site had A) a news page that didn't give a 404, and B) information on what works and what doesn't. At the moment it's extremely sparse, and I HOPE that it isn't rendering correctly in Mozilla, because if it is, they need a new web designer. 😜 (Well, they need a new web designer anyway if it isn't rendering properly in Moz, but that's another story entirely..😉)

Stiletto wrote:

Mattias Welander, a prominent Dark Forces hacker, had started on a Direct3D version of the JEDI engine, called Dark3D, but gave up several months ago. Don't worry though, I'm working on digging up screenshots of the WIP project...

Yippee... Another dead project. I want a live one.

<referring to companies having source-code>Sometimes they don't!

Classic source-code screw-up: Ultima VII. Used a proprietary memory manager that makes it almost impossible to run on a modern machine. Fortunately someone figured out a hack that allows it to run in Windows9x/NT. Unfortunately, even that won't be a solution soon as it's still speed-sensitive. Hopefully the EXULT project will perfect their version soon.

The hunt for the BLOOD source is a classic case which Nicht could tell you about, but I've always thought they just lied and said they didn't have it in that case.

Actually I think that's more of a "lost-in-the-paperwork" issue. It was modified version of the BUILD engine coded by Ken Silverman, that was coded by Monolith for GT, GT was bought by Infrogrames (I beleive). So, technically, they need to get it from Infrogrames.

They probably have the source code on an unlabeled CD, in a box full of other unlabeled CD's, which is probably sitting in a warehouse, inside a locked mass-storage bin, with a sign on the front saying "Beware of the Tiger".

IOW; Other than their lawyers, they probably don't even realize that they have it. If someone were to find and release it, I'm not even sure that Infrogrames would even notice.

In other news, TransFusion saw a recent update.

Unfortunately they're concentrating almost solely on the multiplayer. I'm also sensing a lack of energy after they exhaustively worked to convert the Quake1 source code. Plus, they still haven't agreed on the structure of the single-player game (almost nobody wants to use the game's original sprites, but nobody wants to create 3D versions of those sprites, either).

Nicht Sehr Gut wrote:

Yippee... Another dead project. I want a live one.

Your wish is my command. I.e. Dark3D isn't dead. As Mark
Twain once said, "the rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated." It's only in hibernation.
http://dark3d.codealliance.ca/

The long and short of it -
- Direct3D, Windows only (for now)
- closed source, private beta-testing
- Author had a bad experience on a messageboard, has chosen to region-lock the program, and North Americans can't be in on the private beta testing. (Although, they will be able to use the final version. But how often do projects like this get to that point?) Long story, anyhow.
- One, maybe two developers, plus tons of level editors. Extremely slow development.

More screenshots here:
http://www.df-21.net/projects/eot.html

There's also this, but I have no clue what it is (or if it's fake, could be edited screens from the Mac version?): http://ndark.sevarg.net/

Also, DF was famous for not having multiplayer support. There was a DF multiplayer TC for Duke3D once, but Multiplayer Enterprise is supposed to be a lot better. It's a TC for Outlaws, which I actually would call "a modernization of the Jedi engine" and did have multiplayer support. See here: http://www.df-21.net/projects/df-ol.html

Finally, there's a Dark Forces Total Conversion for Jedi Outcast developed recently, but their homepage of http://darkforces.jediknightii.net seems to be down at this moment. They found temporary housing at: http://mods.moddb.com/165/
This is a much better piece of news! There's also remnants of the site here: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF … 2Dark+Forces%22
and here: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF … 2Dark+Forces%22
and here: http://jodfmod.sourceforge.net/

In other news, Unreal recently saw an S3TC patch. See here: http://www.shacknews.com/ja.zz?id=5560998
http://www.oldunreal.com/index2.shtml

Stiletto wrote:

Your wish is my command. I.e. Dark3D isn't dead.

A never-ending source of distraction, you are...

Thanks for the info...will probably take a while to digest it all.

Snover wrote:

Really, the whole CLI thing needs a long-term fix for W2K users, because I am *not* upgrading to XP. Ever. Period. End-of-story.

heh, getting rid of Windows 2000 (and in the process, Windows 98/ME) was the best thing I ever did to my system. It really was more hassle than it was worth.

Yeah, but you have old hardware and don't mind having privacy ripped away by Microsoft. heh

Snover wrote:

Yeah, but you have old hardware and don't mind having privacy ripped away by Microsoft. heh

you actually believe in online privacy? ROFLMAO!

Not ONLINE privacy. While I take SOME measures to ensure my privacy is kept, it's quite obvious that once you're running a website you're out in the open. However, running this site does NOT mean that you can gain access to what I watch, what programs I run, and/or what music I listen to without me telling you. Besides, activation codes are lose.