Comparing DOS 6.22 to Windows 10 is like comparing a plain metal shovel to a sophisticated multi purpose digging machine that can do virtually any dirt moving job. They aren't equivalent, so a direct comparison requires a either an irrational claim or a considerable amount of effort. A modern operating just does so many more things than DOS ever could do that to boot remotely as quickly is an impressive feat. Also a fresh Windows install often works a lot better than one filled with the detritus of 5+ years of use (running software, installing/uninstalling 3rd party stuff, startup programs, driver updates, OS patches, etc, etc).

Ozzuneoj wrote:

oeuvre wrote:

the perfect computer is in the eye of the beholder

You mean like an Apple smart eye implant? Call it iEye. Or just i.

🤣

You mean like....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctiSz7CUIgY

brostenen wrote:

Ozzuneoj wrote:

oeuvre wrote:

the perfect computer is in the eye of the beholder

You mean like an Apple smart eye implant? Call it iEye. Or just i.

🤣

You mean like....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctiSz7CUIgY

Ah Futurama. In 2010 they already knew how bad it was going to get...

I'll make my own perfect computer.....
With hookers and blackjack. No wait, forget the hookers and blackjack.

You know. Just forget the computerpart all together. 😉

I think the point of me making this thread was to test the following assertion:

"The perfect computer is the one that doesn't need to change."

That is, its original purpose doesn't change. You bought it to do a particular list of tasks, and its ability to do those tasks is the same tomorrow as it was yesterday, because it's not tied to some external force but rather to the original idea that brought it into existence to begin with - and ideas don't change or become obsolete. They are either good or bad to begin with.

My corollary to this is:

"The perfect user interface lies at the intersection of maximum simplicity and efficiency."

So the point of designing this computer would be to find that point of intersection, and stay there.

keenmaster486 wrote:

I think the point of me making this thread was to test the following assertion: […]
Show full quote

I think the point of me making this thread was to test the following assertion:

"The perfect computer is the one that doesn't need to change."

That is, its original purpose doesn't change. You bought it to do a particular list of tasks, and its ability to do those tasks is the same tomorrow as it was yesterday, because it's not tied to some external force but rather to the original idea that brought it into existence to begin with - and ideas don't change or become obsolete. They are either good or bad to begin with.

My corollary to this is:

"The perfect user interface lies at the intersection of maximum simplicity and efficiency."

So the point of designing this computer would be to find that point of intersection, and stay there.

Uhmmm.... Then the iPad is not a perfect computer. Using your own words. You need to change the battery at some point, and you will get updates that are changing the software in it, and the GUI will change over time. And that is Apple who is deciding that for you. And not you.

brostenen wrote:

Uhmmm.... Then the iPad is not a perfect computer. Using your own words. You need to change the battery at some point, and you will get updates that are changing the software in it, and the GUI will change over time. And that is Apple who is deciding that for you. And not you.

I wasn't the iPad guy... that was Intel486dx33. I'm in agreement with you on these points.

Istarian wrote:

Comparing DOS 6.22 to Windows 10 is like comparing a plain metal shovel to a sophisticated multi purpose digging machine that can do virtually any dirt moving job. They aren't equivalent, so a direct comparison requires a either an irrational claim or a considerable amount of effort. A modern operating just does so many more things than DOS ever could do that to boot remotely as quickly is an impressive feat. Also a fresh Windows install often works a lot better than one filled with the detritus of 5+ years of use (running software, installing/uninstalling 3rd party stuff, startup programs, driver updates, OS patches, etc, etc).

But I imagine that most people nowdays do the same few tasks with these ultra-capable operating systems, socials, mail, light office, streaming and stop. Not that much more of what Win 3.11/95/PC was/would have been capable to do. Considering how MUCH faster are these modern cpu/ram/gpu compared to those days, I don't see all this progress but still I'd prefer a modern desktop os/computer to the usual smartphone.

keenmaster486 wrote:

brostenen wrote:

Uhmmm.... Then the iPad is not a perfect computer. Using your own words. You need to change the battery at some point, and you will get updates that are changing the software in it, and the GUI will change over time. And that is Apple who is deciding that for you. And not you.

I wasn't the iPad guy... that was Intel486dx33. I'm in agreement with you on these points.

Sorry.... My fault. 🙁 Sorry! Yeah, I screwed up royally there.

What about the perfect retro gaming computer ?
What hardware would you use ?

What CPU
What Motherboard ?
What amount of ram ?
What Graphics cards ?
ISA/PCI or AGP or PCIe ?
What sound card ?

Intel486dx33 wrote:

What about the perfect retro gaming computer ? What hardware would you use ? […]
Show full quote

What about the perfect retro gaming computer ?
What hardware would you use ?

What CPU
What Motherboard ?
What amount of ram ?
What Graphics cards ?
ISA/PCI or AGP or PCIe ?
What sound card ?

I would say that it depends on what type of era of games that you are interrested in, and what you personally consider as being retro. To me, the XP era will never be retro, as I have no nostagia for that era. Never had a machine that was able to game the newest games from around 2001 and onwards, and when I finally had the money, I was building computers for a living. Between 2003 and 2006 I was working with it, and during that time, I was fed up with computers so much, that I only used a Windows computer for home banking, searching for normal everyday living information and emailing. And it stayed like that untill 2013, when I went back to retro computing, and then it was all Win98 and MS Dos 6.22 gaming all over for me. To me, the time between 1987/88 to 1991, are all Amiga500 territory when finding the best machine. 1982 to 1985/87 are Commodore64 era. When dealing with pure Dos then we are talking 1990/91 to 1997 and Windows9x are 1995 to 1999/01. So all era's are overlapping each other, and sometimes a 386sx33 are better than a 486dx4-120 (Wing commander as an example).

To summarise.... What era of gaming are we talking about, when finding the ultimate computer? As one single machine is not the ultimate retro/vintage gaming machine.

The only correct answer is that the perfect computer doesn't exist.

It can't exist.

The breadth of applications for what can loosely be called "a computer" is just so immensely gargantuan that it's impossible for one configuration to be good, even capable at all of them simultaneously.

Even if you whittled down the use cases to the top 90% or so, you'd still end up with a device that's "OK at most things"... not even "OK at everything".

As for OP's ideas around software... well we sorta already have that. In the scheme of things, the periodic refreshes of our favourite tools (email, word processing, spreadsheet, etc) are minor, and do indeed add functionality. With a little bit of initial effort, they can and do improve your workflow. The complaints raised about "change for the sake of change" are relatable, but misguided IMO. Changes to user interface don't happen in a vacuum. As much disdain as one may have for Microsoft and Apple as companies, they ultimately must respond to the market. One may feel as though the changes are arbitrary, and done on a whim, but the reality is that these changes are in the works for months if not years before they see the light of day. Internal product group testing, external focus groups, feedback/suggestion boxes, pilot/beta testing, etc etc etc are all stock-standard parts of development.

I think it's easy to be jaded about "the way things are", and the temptation is to assume that what you like, or are used to, is somehow objectively correct. Confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance are powerful things. You'll save yourself from an early grave and grey hairs if you stop being so bitter about change, and just do what works for you. The Internet is a big place, there's room for everybody's preferences.

Humans are imperfect so computer's can't be perfect either. We keep following our delusion that if we had just one more thing, just one more Terabyte, just one more Gigahertz, we'd be able to sit back in our easy chairs and do nothing.

And yet the perfect computer kind of can exist when you look at it from another perspective. In a way, take a look at all of us on here - we all like different generations of x86 hardware and even hardware that falls outside that little niche realm of DOS/Windows machines. For me it's the 486 era, another guy it could be the Commodore 64, and for the other guy, whatever has the fastest CPU, RAM, and Graphics card.

creepingnet wrote:

Humans are imperfect so computer's can't be perfect either.

Not true. I am perfect.

oeuvre wrote:

creepingnet wrote:

Humans are imperfect so computer's can't be perfect either.

Not true. I am perfect.

Nope... I am perfect. 🤣

oeuvre wrote:

creepingnet wrote:

Humans are imperfect so computer's can't be perfect either.

Not true. I am perfect.

Thread oeuvre.

appiah4 wrote:

oeuvre wrote:

creepingnet wrote:

Humans are imperfect so computer's can't be perfect either.

Not true. I am perfect.

Thread oeuvre.

*bows* Thank you.

As much disdain as one may have for Microsoft and Apple as companies, they ultimately must respond to the market. One may feel as though the changes are arbitrary, and done on a whim, but the reality is that these changes are in the works for months if not years before they see the light of day.

Microsoft has had roughly 90% desktop OS market share for ages. Most people who bought Windows bought it because it came with the PC, not because they went through a process of comparing the features of all available alternatives and concluded that Windows was superior. And that's before you consider that most software is tied to a specific OS and doesn't run on others, so the choice of OS is likely dependent on third party software and not the OS itself.

The industry offers a product. People have the choice to buy it or not buy it. And the industry has a mountain of of money to spend on advertising to tell people what they should buy and to buyout competitors to remove other options from the market.

I strongly reject the notion that adware, spyware, DRM, removed features, broken compatibility, dumbed-down UI, bloat, and all the rest of it exist because "that's what people wanted"

brostenen wrote:

Intel486dx33 wrote:

What about the perfect retro gaming computer ? What hardware would you use ? […]
Show full quote

What about the perfect retro gaming computer ?
What hardware would you use ?

What CPU
What Motherboard ?
What amount of ram ?
What Graphics cards ?
ISA/PCI or AGP or PCIe ?
What sound card ?

I would say that it depends on what type of era of games that you are interrested in, and what you personally consider as being retro. To me, the XP era will never be retro, as I have no nostagia for that era. Never had a machine that was able to game the newest games from around 2001 and onwards, and when I finally had the money, I was building computers for a living. Between 2003 and 2006 I was working with it, and during that time, I was fed up with computers so much, that I only used a Windows computer for home banking, searching for normal everyday living information and emailing. And it stayed like that untill 2013, when I went back to retro computing, and then it was all Win98 and MS Dos 6.22 gaming all over for me. To me, the time between 1987/88 to 1991, are all Amiga500 territory when finding the best machine. 1982 to 1985/87 are Commodore64 era. When dealing with pure Dos then we are talking 1990/91 to 1997 and Windows9x are 1995 to 1999/01. So all era's are overlapping each other, and sometimes a 386sx33 are better than a 486dx4-120 (Wing commander as an example).

To summarise.... What era of gaming are we talking about, when finding the ultimate computer? As one single machine is not the ultimate retro/vintage gaming machine.

I mean a DOS gaming computer ?

bakemono wrote:

I strongly reject the notion that adware, spyware, DRM, removed features, broken compatibility, dumbed-down UI, bloat, and all the rest of it exist because "that's what people wanted"

Let's break that list down in to "things" and "opinions".

Things:

Adware
Spyware
DRM

Yep, these are things that came about for various reasons, and are not "what people wanted". The first two because they are literally installed without the user's consent, and interfere with normal operation of the computer, and the latter because content owners were paranoid about losing control over their digital media post-sale. Absolutely fair.

Opinions:

Broken compatibility

You have to draw a line somewhere, otherwise we'd still be using massive, cumbersome, bandwidth limited D-sub connectors and floppy disks for everything. The fact that we can't all agree on where that line is drawn is just the way the cookie crumbles when everyone's requirements are different.

Dumbed-down UI

... is completely subjective. Complex isn't always better. I know I can do more with my computer when less of the screen is cluttered with menus and toolbars. Does that mean it's "dumbed down"? By hiding options away from the casual user, I can now confidently set my parents/grandparents loose on phones and tablets without much fear of them accidentally breaking something. Arguably "dumbed down", but is that a bad thing in this case? Automatic transmission meant more people could be more productive, with net benefits to the global economy. Was this "dumbing down" of driving, and was that objectively a bad thing?

The market asked for computers and devices to be simpler and more accessible, industry responded. Computer geeks and vintage nerds might not be onboard, but alternatives exist for us.

Bloat

You can either have more functionality, or a smaller install size. The market voted for the former. What you call "bloat", others may call "less pissing around installing stuff out of the box". Another point that's entirely subjective.