Real pros use Office 4.3! Noob!

Real pros use Wordstar and Lotus 1-2-3.

Nope... Real pro's or authors if you like, use Wordperfect for Dos.

ZellSF wrote:

I expect every Windows 10 thread to devolve into a flamewar that gets locked somehow, but I didn't expect it to be over some angsty teen whining about SJWs ruining Linux development.

You've got it backwards, my argument has been linux will be fine, the angsty teen whining bit being AlaricD and apparently you for pointing out sjw is trash.

Angsty teen meaning going way off topic to continue a flamewar no one gives a shit about.

No, the conversation flowed to consternations with linux, sjwism monkey wrenching linux is a looming issue that is as disruptive or more so than new users having to try to keep up with dependencies. The conversation also evolved to talking about the origin of pnp yet you apparently haven't had an issue that, just knocking sjwism that raised your ire; doth protest too much.

OS PnP systems isn't the pervasive flamewar all the dumb teens are obsessing over, no.

Apparently most linux devs are dumb teens obsessing.

I haven't seen any of them invoke the term "SJW" while going off-topic on an internet forum.

As I've already gone over, not off topic(also, do you even know what sub you're in? milliways - random banter, unrelated discussion, et cetera.,) and sjw poison is more than just talked about, more like threats of going nuclear, aka people pulling their contributions that would go far in gutting linux. Like I said, a bigger issue than dependencies.

Seriously talking about issues != randomly throwing "SJW" into a forum discussion. "SJW" is a term specifically intended to invoke flamewars. I have never seen anyone use that term, who wasn't trying to start a fight of some kind.

also, do you even know what sub you're in? milliways - random banter, unrelated discussion, et cetera

Divided into topics, are you new to forums?

Again, not random, and sjw is a term used to specifically refer to a particular thing with the intention of referencing it.

Divided into topics where discussions flow, are you new to conversations?

Wow, wen't on a business trip for 1 week without taking a personal laptop, and this has deteriorated into SJWs. A pity, because SirNickity had some great replies to my previous post.

SirNickity wrote:

So, yeah, you can absolutely separate the kernel and driver layer from the UI -- and that's been my point of this entire thread, really. We keep buying new OSes that are rarely more than a driver update pack (which is valuable), and a re-skin that is of arguable benefit. Why can't THOSE things be decoupled? Major under-the-hood updates, incremental look and feel updates -- and only where it makes sense, makes it genuinely better, or at least some subjective aesthetic benefit. Rather than paying somebody to randomly rearrange the furniture and tell us "this is how it is now -- like it or not."

That wasn't exactly the point I was trying to make. The separation of kernel and UI is surely possible, and I never doubted that. Linux has been doing this from the start; In Microsoft, these are also very separate things (even managed by different internal organizations), which explains why the NT kernel has been steadily improving in every generation, while the UI is a very mixed bag. I also agree that many of Microsoft's UI decisions are indeed of arguable benefit.

What I was trying to say (probably not very successfully) is that new technologies have mandated changes both in the kernel and in the UI, and you will not get the best user experience with them if you just pump up the kernel and freeze the UI. The Win8/Win10 UI, atrocious as it is for some things, is quite a bit better for using many of these new technologies than the outdated Win9x UI. For old tech, the latter may be true.

SirNickity wrote:

This is a very well articulated list of problems with the ribbon design. I used it for a few years and never got used to it. Things I rarely used (say, Outlook signatures) took forever to find, where they were more or less placed in a logical menu somewhere previously. Ultimately, the ribbon tried to marry the forward presence of oft-used shortcuts with having the entire kitchen sink available to you. That's fundamentally flawed design. You can't remove clutter and have all options available simultaneously - they're antithetical goals.

This is good point - commonly used things were made more accessible, but at the expense of making rarely used things less so. This may be justified by the cost of support - making common things more obvious reduces the support tickets on those, whereas people who use rare features are typically advanced users that know how to figure things out and search for answers on the web.

SirNickity wrote:

It could well be my own perception, but the honest reality that I perceive is that the industry kind of decided en masse it wasn't the next big thing in UI design. Users vocally hated it, then learned to tolerate it for lack of options, and then either moved on with their lives or used something else. I can't agree that acceptance is the same thing as truly embracing it.

I don't think it was embraced as the next big thing, but rather as a UI style that has its place and usefulness in some cases. Almost every big change has some users vocally hating it - you have to balance it with the users who thought it was good (who are typically far less vocal).

dr_st wrote:

SirNickity wrote:

It could well be my own perception, but the honest reality that I perceive is that the industry kind of decided en masse it wasn't the next big thing in UI design. Users vocally hated it, then learned to tolerate it for lack of options, and then either moved on with their lives or used something else. I can't agree that acceptance is the same thing as truly embracing it.

I don't think it was embraced as the next big thing, but rather as a UI style that has its place and usefulness in some cases. Almost every big change has some users vocally hating it - you have to balance it with the users who thought it was good (who are typically far less vocal).

On the "vocal minority" note I feel Windows Update gets more crap than it deserves (which is an impressive feat, because it does deserve a ton of it). Even if only 0.01% of users have problems with updates, that's still a lot of people that will make the impression that Windows Update is deeply flawed.

I vaguely remember Windows Update working on Windows 98 SE. I think that was the first? It definitely ran on Windows ME.

ZellSF wrote:

I expect every Windows 10 thread to devolve into a flamewar that gets locked somehow, but I didn't expect it to be over some angsty teen whining about SJWs ruining Linux development.

(a) Not just linux development... all development!
(b) Thread not locked... yet, and besides, we like diversity.
(c) On the grand scale of thread derailments in milliways, I don't think this would even register.
(d) No one randomly threw sjw into the mix, the linux community did this all by themselves.

Granted there is a slight de-railment, but really? This is afterall a conversation about "Win X", in milliways, and its not like OP's OP is anything more than a statement itself which usually induce conversations. The subject matter is implied to be about modern OS's (they even mention Linux in the OP), so I don't think it's that farfetched to assume that the current state of affairs of said OS would eventually make into the discussion. OS flaming goes with the territory.

ZellSF wrote:

Seriously talking about issues != randomly throwing "SJW" into a forum discussion.

The subject is serious, and nothing was thrown in randomly? Do you even know what it is that is being talked about in this "derailment" here? or did you just read some keywords in the posts and come to your own conclusion about what is being discussed?

Thanks however, I do appreciate you taking the time to reply to me about removing ribbons, although I thought you meant look like and behave like Win98? i.e A proper classic theme, and classic explorer.exe not just classic colours but still oversized start menu icon, which is all that I can find atm.

I know what I am doing in the registry so would rather screw it up myself and not leave it to third-party apps. Already been there with snake oil registry cleaners years ago.... when I didn't know what I was doing (about the same time I upgraded to laces from Velcro).

Now excuse me while I go and update my facebook status about how unfair the world is while twitching overwatch and dreaming about what it is like to lose my virginity. 😢

spiroyster wrote:

The subject is serious, and nothing was thrown in randomly? Do you even know what it is that is being talked about in this "derailment" here? or did you just read some keywords in the posts and come to your own conclusion about what is being discussed?

Yes, I understand what was being talked about. Talking about how inclusiveness can be harmful, or helpful to development can be done perfectly well without using terminology that's used almost exclusively to start drama or flamewars.

spiroyster wrote:

Thanks however, I do appreciate you taking the time to reply to me about removing ribbons, although I thought you meant look like and behave like Win98? i.e A proper classic theme, and classic explorer.exe not just classic colours but still oversized start menu icon, which is all that I can find atm.

Classic theme isn't possible (well it's possible, it just breaks a LOT of stuff). Classic explorer, I don't know, what are you missing about it? The start menu icon can be customized with Classic Start Menu.

ZellSF wrote:

Yes, I understand what was being talked about. Talking about how inclusiveness can be harmful, or helpful to development can be done perfectly well without using terminology that's used almost exclusively to start drama or flamewars.

Fair enough, I can't argue with that and I'll leave it at that then. Needless to say, as a developer, and advocate of OSS, it is a subject which (while I tend to armchair giggle at) in this case has touched a nerve of mine. And currently looks like it is going to change the landscape substantially... well for linux anyway... Unix FTW. 😵

ZellSF wrote:

Classic theme isn't possible (well it's possible, it just breaks a LOT of stuff). Classic explorer, I don't know, what are you missing about it? The start menu icon can be customized with Classic Start Menu.

Yes I was hoping there was guide which could do this without too many implications. Hated XP and 7, quite liked Vista, but ultimately have been using the in-built classic theme as much as possible while I still could. The classic theme instructions for Windows 8/10 make it look like KDE to me, not quite the Win9X theme which triggers the nostalgia. I like the clouds on the side bar, and the location of an IE style icon (spinny globe) in the top right. Then there is slight difference in the emboss of the icons generally (also would be awesome for greystyle swirls like IE3)... unfortunately this is now lost for the immediate future for me... but hey, tbh not going to lose too much sleep over it. Shame the UI was tunnelled the way it was, but overall I find my workflows quite smooth and the stlying quite contemporary in Win X. XAML is great as it allows breakout from the standard styling a lot easier than just GDI. I can't help but think this has appealed to Web developers and allowed the explosion of non Windows styled applications that have appeared over the last few years.

Tomorrow is PATCH TUESDAY, BOYS!