Not to mention that Apple never promised that an Apple device bought ten years ago will still run the newest macOS indefinitely. You could even argue that even back then it was obvious that they will deprecate old devices.
No computer device manufacturer promises you that it will run on anything than what it was running on when you bought it.

Dominus wrote on 2020-06-23, 15:47:

Not to mention that Apple never promised that an Apple device bought ten years ago will still run the newest macOS indefinitely. You could even argue that even back then it was obvious that they will deprecate old devices.
No computer device manufacturer promises you that it will run on anything than what it was running on when you bought it.

Everything has an expiration date. In electronics you have capacitors and components that are susceptible to heat , moisture and decay.
My old IBM and Apple computers from as far back as 1982 still work but barely. They are not reliable computers and could fail at any time.

I think the BIGGEST hurdle Apple will need to tackle is keeping there devices all working harmoniously with there Apple eco system.

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2020-06-23, 17:59:

I think the BIGGEST hurdle Apple will need to tackle is keeping there devices all working harmoniously with there Apple eco system.

Nah that's the benefit of their small closed eco system they control the devices as well.
Apple simply drop OS support for the earlier devices in their OS releases effectively killing them off.

Android and Microsoft on the other hand have a big task to keep all sorts of combinations working as they lack the closed eco system.

They SHOULD let us choose to run the newest OS in our old devices, not deprecate them the way they do. Christ, a 2012 MBP is still relevant, theres one on my desk at work, still works great, yet they classified it as vintage. FFS 8 years old is far from vintage. 30-20 years old is vintage!

My 2009 iMac is still flying with the unsupported macOS Catalina, and as soon as Dosdude1 releases a patcher for macOS Big Sh*t, it will continue flying too. They’re all lies about “your old mac will not run it properly”. This is BS. My old iMac is the proof that they’re WRONG and LYING to get more of their shitty shiny new expensive toys sold.

The last months I’ve been losing all my trust in Apple and infuriated with the need to go back to Windows after ten years without, because of the direction Apple is taking with their software and hardware. Less function, less form, more expensive and more profit. 👎🏼👎🏼👎🏼

The transition from PPC to Intel to “Apple Silicon”.

Bruninho wrote on 2020-06-24, 13:54:

They SHOULD let us choose to run the newest OS in our old devices, not deprecate them the way they do. Christ, a 2012 MBP is still relevant, theres one on my desk at work, still works great, yet they classified it as vintage. FFS 8 years old is far from vintage. 30-20 years old is vintage!

Nah, it's their choice and it's well known that Apple does this. ANY device is so called vintage after 8 years. If you are lucky an 8 years old device still runs the latest OS but they NEVER promised you that and you could have deduced it from their track record.

BUT all hope is not lost. Just use bootcamp on this 2012 MBP and run the latest Windows 10. I'm sure that will work fabulous...

Dominus wrote on 2020-06-24, 14:36:

Nah, it's their choice and it's well known that Apple does this. ANY device is so called vintage after 8 years. If you are lucky an 8 years old device still runs the latest OS but they NEVER promised you that and you could have deduced it from their track record.

I'm not talking about promises, i'm talking about their lies and that they're wrong in forcing us to deprecate perfectly great old machines still relevant in 2020. They're wrong. Period.

I never said they promised something. I said they're lying to old loyal customers when they say their old machines are unsupported.

No device should be called vintage after 8 years, never. Vintage for me is 20-30 years old. They're idiots when they do that. When I buy a computer, I want it to last at least 10 years with me. I don't want to buy computers that will be unsupported after 5 years, it's a waste of my money and bad investment. When a 2012 MBP is still a match for 2020 MBP, it speaks volumes about how wrong they are about calling it "vintage".

A 2012 MBP with Catalina still runs much better than any 2020 MBP and owe nothing to new machines. All you have to do is to do a good maintenance, if my 2009 iMac is still flying even with unsupported Catalina, its because I do a GREAT maintenance on it.

In other words, they lie to me when they say this and that machine is unsupported on Catalina. They can run it! Just a small but smart patch from DOSDUDE1, and it installs and runs! They just want you to buy their new expensive toys! And nothing you say here will convince me that they're not wrong in doing that.

Dominus wrote on 2020-06-24, 14:36:

BUT all hope is not lost. Just use bootcamp on this 2012 MBP and run the latest Windows 10. I'm sure that will work fabulous...

Oh, I'm pretty sure it will be fabulous. It's what we will do here when they stop updating macOS for Intel Macs. I can and I will do a dual boot Ubuntu/Windows 10.

After all, it's still an Intel computer. It wouldn't even boot if it were the shitty ARM Mac toy for n00bs they're going to sell. 😀

Welp, time to squeeze muney from Apple clients even more, with all new and shiny custom tech. And also to kill off those pesky hackintosh users. Obvious win-win for Apple.

when they are lying you really should sue them, seems you are building a very strong case here, so go for it...

It's what we will do here when they stop updating macOS for Intel Macs.

ash so you are not yet switching to Windows... I thought you were so unsatisfied that you need to switch now... But anyway, I see that you will never be happy and you need to complain anyway...

Dominus wrote on 2020-06-24, 14:57:

when they are lying you really should sue them, seems you are building a very strong case here, so go for it...

It's clear the guy has no idea what he's talking about. "Runs perfectly" - haha! Try to run any application that requires AVX or Metal and tell us how perfect it is 😉

Dominus wrote on 2020-06-24, 14:57:

ash so you are not yet switching to Windows... I thought you were so unsatisfied that you need to switch now... But anyway, I see that you will never be happy and you need to complain anyway...

It's useless to argue with people who are absolutely convinced that the world owes them something and throw their toys out of the pram when they don't get their way.

Bruninho wrote on 2020-06-24, 14:48:

I said they're lying to old loyal customers when they say their old machines are unsupported.

Unsupported and doesn't work are 2 different things.
Unsupported just means they haven't tested on these machines. If it does work great, if not your on your own as they aren't wasting resources on it

You also seem to think you have to run the latest OS to have support.
High Sierra is still currently supported and expected to last till roughly end of the year. That means some Mac's from 2009 are still covered
That's the same year as Windows 7 was released and much earlier then Windows 8, both of which are no longer supported

I like a lot of their products yet never purchased a single one as I've no desire to be locked into them calling the shots which is what their "eco system" is all about
The fact you lasted about 10 years before finding this out I'd say you had a good run!

Work gave me an original iPhone many years ago, nice phone but iTunes sucked but unlike every other MP3 player back then the iPhone couldn't sync with any other software out the box

chinny22 wrote on 2020-06-24, 16:18:

Bruninho wrote on 2020-06-24, 14:48:

I said they're lying to old loyal customers when they say their old machines are unsupported.

Unsupported and doesn't work are 2 different things.
Unsupported just means they haven't tested on these machines. If it does work great, if not your on your own as they aren't wasting resources on it.

Well, in Apple's case, the OS would not even install on unsupported hardware.

But when Bruninho claims that it "works perfectly" on old hardware he's obviously wrong. Some components of the system require AVX instructions, some built-in codecs need QuickSync and pretty much anything graphical these days depends on the Metal API which is not supported by GPUs in those old machines. The Dosdude1's patch replaces some key libraries with older versions or patches out the code that uses new instructions, but the result is a Frankenstein system that may even work well enough... until it doesn't.

Bruninho wrote on 2020-06-24, 13:54:

They SHOULD let us choose to run the newest OS in our old devices, not deprecate them the way they do. Christ, a 2012 MBP is still relevant, theres one on my desk at work, still works great, yet they classified it as vintage. FFS 8 years old is far from vintage. 30-20 years old is vintage!

If you believe in this you are definitely in the wrong ecosystem. Where were you in the last decade and half? Planned (and accelerated) depreciation is a fact of life in the Apple walled garden. Enjoy it. Until you can't. I can only 🤣 at this.

ShovelKnight wrote on 2020-06-24, 17:03:

Well, in Apple's case, the OS would not even install on unsupported hardware.

But when Bruninho claims that it "works perfectly" on old hardware he's obviously wrong. Some components of the system require AVX instructions, some built-in codecs need QuickSync and pretty much anything graphical these days depends on the Metal API which is not supported by GPUs in those old machines. The Dosdude1's patch replaces some key libraries with older versions or patches out the code that uses new instructions, but the result is a Frankenstein system that may even work well enough... until it doesn't.

Everything is working: Photoshop, VMware Fusion, web dev apps, games, browsers, etc... everything, absolutely everything is working, including the UI transparency. Dosdude1 is the man.

Not a single issue for months since I've patched it. Name an App I've installed here, and I'll tell you that it's working 100% perfectly.

They simply lie to their loyal customers to make them buy their shiny new expensive toys. Not a chance in the world I'll pay for the most powerful MacBook Pro the price of a brand new car. I'd rather buy the car, at least my car doesn't get obsolete too soon.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-06-24, 14:54:

Welp, time to squeeze muney from Apple clients even more, with all new and shiny custom tech. And also to kill off those pesky hackintosh users. Obvious win-win for Apple.

Blame Tim Cook for that. He only cares about profit, not about happy customers. As a CEO, he's an idiot, because happy customers means more profit. He has more unhappy customers than profit, actually. Just give a look at MacRumours forum to see how much shit they are throwing at Apple for the changes on macOS Big Sur user interface - even the new icons are being trashed by them. As a designer myself, the new icons are garbage and I could've designed them better. Now they look like 2006 icons. Windows Vista wants his UI back, btw.

Bruninho wrote on 2020-06-24, 17:51:

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-06-24, 14:54:

Welp, time to squeeze muney from Apple clients even more, with all new and shiny custom tech. And also to kill off those pesky hackintosh users. Obvious win-win for Apple.

Blame Tim Cook for that. He only cares about profit, not about happy customers. As a CEO, he's an idiot, because happy customers means more profit. He has more unhappy customers than profit, actually.

Lol, under Jobs they dropped PPC support after just one operating system release (those customers who bought the crazy expensive G5 Quad were very upset), almost immediately after that they dropped support for early Intel machines with Core Duo and even Core 2 Duo chips (because the first Core 2 Duo machines still had the 32-bit EFI), today they're actually supporting obsolete Macs for longer than when Jobs was at the helm. But don't let the facts get in the way of your narrative 😉

ShovelKnight wrote on 2020-06-24, 18:23:

Bruninho wrote on 2020-06-24, 17:51:

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-06-24, 14:54:

Welp, time to squeeze muney from Apple clients even more, with all new and shiny custom tech. And also to kill off those pesky hackintosh users. Obvious win-win for Apple.

Blame Tim Cook for that. He only cares about profit, not about happy customers. As a CEO, he's an idiot, because happy customers means more profit. He has more unhappy customers than profit, actually.

Lol, under Jobs they dropped PPC support after just one operating system release (those customers who bought the crazy expensive G5 Quad were very upset), almost immediately after that they dropped support for early Intel machines with Core Duo and even Core 2 Duo chips (because the first Core 2 Duo machines still had the 32-bit EFI), today they're actually supporting obsolete Macs for longer than when Jobs was at the helm. But don't let the facts get in the way of your narrative 😉

Except that he dropped the shitty PPC for something better (intel) and now Cook is dropping intel for something sh*t (ARM). Two different things. I’m ok for changes to better things,
but not for stupidity like they’ve been doing.

And two years is not exactly a long time.

The fastest supercomputer *today* is ARM based https://uk.pcmag.com/sound-cards/127514/japan … t-supercomputer . But again, don't let facts get the better of your feelings 😀
Let's wait for the actual benchmark, when actual hardware is available before calling it shit.
And yes, two years is not a long time, but two years doesn't mean that an intel bought now is obsolete right at the cutoff time. It will run as long as people can run it. And you can run it pretty long. I'm still running a PPC mac mini with OS X 10.4...

Bruninho wrote on 2020-06-24, 18:47:

And two years is not exactly a long time.

Technically Arm is a better ISA than x86.

Also: they said "in 2 years, every Mac we sell will be running on Apple silicon", they didn't say they would drop support for Intel Macs in 2 years. They also specifically said that they're going to provide updates for Intel Macs "for years to come". Which could mean 2 years... or 10 years.

Dominus wrote on 2020-06-24, 18:59:

The fastest supercomputer *today* is ARM based https://uk.pcmag.com/sound-cards/127514/japan … t-supercomputer . But again, don't let facts get the better of your feelings 😀

He doesn't care because it's not going to run CartingSimulator 2020 or whatever it is he wants to run, and anything that doesn't benefit him directly is sh# t 😉