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Reply 40 of 166, by Joakim

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If there is a market for it, it is still possible that replacement parts is going to be sold, similar to what I understanding is already going on for the Amiga.

But not every part and not every system of course..

Reply 41 of 166, by cyclone3d

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BitWrangler wrote on 2021-06-11, 21:54:

Nobody will ever get my secret fan lube recipe, I'll take it to my grave, muhuahahaaaa!!!!

Spoiler

Well okay then, half and half moly extreme pressure/temperature bearing grease and clock oil... flush the old gunk out with alcohol or WD40 first.

I just use full synthetic Mobile 1 motor oil. One of the fans I used that method on is an old space heater that was being thrown away at least 10 years ago. The fan was seized up when I got it. It hasn't skipped a beat since.

Haven't had any computer fans that I have used this method on mess up again either.

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header

Reply 42 of 166, by Caluser2000

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Joakim wrote on 2021-06-12, 12:17:

If there is a market for it, it is still possible that replacement parts is going to be sold, similar to what I understanding is already going on for the Amiga.

But not every part and not every system of course..

A pre-used computer shop opened in our town a year ago. It's great for getting old parts/systems at a very reasonable price. PCs and Apple systems. It's my go to computer shop now. And with the chip shortage, which going to get worse not better IMHO, I can see more of them opening around the place..

There's a glitch in the matrix.
A founding member of the 286 appreciation society.
Apparently 32-bit is dead and nobody likes P4s.
Of course, as always, I'm open to correction...😉

Reply 43 of 166, by jgf

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Eventually maintaining old hardware will no longer be a viable option. Even if you are adept at soldering and have a good soldering station there's little you can do beyond replacing leaky or bad electrolytic caps, maybe locate a bad diode; but a burnt resistor? what overloaded it? Troubleshooting is out of the question. A dead 64 pin SMD? Could you get a replacement chip, much less be able to physically replace it? How long will AGP vid cards be available? Or IDE drives?

Another mitigating factor is cost. Twenty years ago it was economically feasible to upgrade old systems - more RAM, larger HDs, better vid card, etc.; but manufacturers don't like that so costs for older replacement parts skyrocketed. A few years ago I wanted to upgrade my old XP system, but I could replace the 1gig RAM sticks in my Vista system with 2gig more cheaply than I could replace the 512s in the Vista with 1gigs.

To continue running old software, the future is in emulation such as DOSBox. There are emulators for '80's era console games now, not to mention the many clones of these games (which look, sound, and play like the originals) created for new windows. From Win7 x64 on you can run old 32 bit OS in a VM, that is the future for old games ....and one day someone will be discussing running Win7 x64 in a VM on their Win25 x256 system with 512gig RAM.

But the ultimate bottleneck stems from computers, which operate on "logic", being programmed by humans, the majority of whom have no concept of logic. Consider this absolutely logical concept: a cup of water can be carried in a quart jar, a quart of water can be carried in a gallon jug, a gallon of water can be carried in a five gallon bucket. Pure logic. Now, a 16bit program can run on a 32 bit system, a 32 bit program can run on a 64 bit system ...then programmer logic completely fails because a 16bit program "cannot run on a 64bit system".

I have an older game which balks at running on a 32bit desktop, demanding it be set to 256 color. So you are telling me you can draw this picture with the 8 color box of crayons, but it cannot be drawn with the 64 color box of crayons ....even though that 64 color box contains all the colors of the 8 color box?! This is programmer logic, not real logic.

Reply 44 of 166, by Joakim

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I was thinking newly made but used is awsome! It's almost like I would like to open my own shop but I guess it would be a nightmare with returns.

Not sure if it would be viable in my country as the laws cocerning consumer rights are very strict. Would probably go out of business in 6 months if everyone starts returning their 30 year old motherboards because of bad cap... 😀

I was thinking that the copyrights of these old things should have run out and it's free for Chinese factories to stop making vibrators and make some 3dfx cards instead. 😉

Reply 45 of 166, by Shreddoc

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Already, shortages of the most revered retro hardware mean that many retro enthusiasts will definitely live out their lives without personally owning, say, a Model M keyboard, or a Gravis Ultrasound, or a real MT-32, original IBM machines, CRT screens, or many old consoles.

So this 'theoretical future' when certain old hardware is out-of-reach for many is already here.

What it will be like in the future, is simply an extension of what it's already like now. More items will fall off the conveyor belt of time, and those items with a sufficiently keen following will be either preserved or recreated in some form (often even with improvements! - e.g. MUNT sounds better than a real MT-32, MiSTer FPGA can be Old Consoles+, the technical superiority of the Orpheus sound card, the incredible Wonder Boy 3 remake, + a million other examples...), just like they are now.

Reply 46 of 166, by cyclone3d

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jgf wrote on 2021-06-12, 18:27:
Eventually maintaining old hardware will no longer be a viable option. Even if you are adept at soldering and have a good solde […]
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Eventually maintaining old hardware will no longer be a viable option. Even if you are adept at soldering and have a good soldering station there's little you can do beyond replacing leaky or bad electrolytic caps, maybe locate a bad diode; but a burnt resistor? what overloaded it? Troubleshooting is out of the question. A dead 64 pin SMD? Could you get a replacement chip, much less be able to physically replace it? How long will AGP vid cards be available? Or IDE drives?

Another mitigating factor is cost. Twenty years ago it was economically feasible to upgrade old systems - more RAM, larger HDs, better vid card, etc.; but manufacturers don't like that so costs for older replacement parts skyrocketed. A few years ago I wanted to upgrade my old XP system, but I could replace the 1gig RAM sticks in my Vista system with 2gig more cheaply than I could replace the 512s in the Vista with 1gigs.

To continue running old software, the future is in emulation such as DOSBox. There are emulators for '80's era console games now, not to mention the many clones of these games (which look, sound, and play like the originals) created for new windows. From Win7 x64 on you can run old 32 bit OS in a VM, that is the future for old games ....and one day someone will be discussing running Win7 x64 in a VM on their Win25 x256 system with 512gig RAM.

But the ultimate bottleneck stems from computers, which operate on "logic", being programmed by humans, the majority of whom have no concept of logic. Consider this absolutely logical concept: a cup of water can be carried in a quart jar, a quart of water can be carried in a gallon jug, a gallon of water can be carried in a five gallon bucket. Pure logic. Now, a 16bit program can run on a 32 bit system, a 32 bit program can run on a 64 bit system ...then programmer logic completely fails because a 16bit program "cannot run on a 64bit system".

I have an older game which balks at running on a 32bit desktop, demanding it be set to 256 color. So you are telling me you can draw this picture with the 8 color box of crayons, but it cannot be drawn with the 64 color box of crayons ....even though that 64 color box contains all the colors of the 8 color box?! This is programmer logic, not real logic.

What you are referring to isn't necessarily "programmer logic" as you refer to it but the huge hassle it is to keep legacy support in the OS for stuff that 99.999999% of users will never have a use for.

If they did keep that type of legacy support it would end up just causing problems as the .000001% of users that wanted to use it would complain about stuff they wanted to run not always working properly. Then there is the fact that the hardware supported by such software has not had any driver updates for the past decade or more.

And then you also run into the issue of massive security holes in older software which hasn't been update in a decade or more.

It really isn't "programmer logic" as much as it is business and security related.

If you really want to run ancient software within a newer OS, then you have the option of straight up virtualization or emulators such as DOSBox.

In regards to the required screen bit-depth settings, that is indeed a poorly written program and has been around forever.

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header

Reply 47 of 166, by Caluser2000

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If the system has all the external facing drives, fdds, DVD/CD/card readers etc, or free ports like serial or usb are disabled and the system not networked or not networked outside that particular Dept and unble to be accessed remotely via the internet their security access is just available at the local /Dept level. If the driver worked fine 10 years ago there is absolutely no reason it will not work today.

Disclaimer: I am not a Computer Technician.

There's a glitch in the matrix.
A founding member of the 286 appreciation society.
Apparently 32-bit is dead and nobody likes P4s.
Of course, as always, I'm open to correction...😉

Reply 48 of 166, by cyclone3d

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Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-06-12, 22:23:

If the system has all the external facing drives, fdds, DVD/CD/card readers etc, or free ports like serial or usb are disabled and the system not networked or not networked outside that particular Dept and unble to be accessed remotely via the internet their security access is just available at the local /Dept level. If the driver worked fine 10 years ago there is absolutely no reason it will not work today.

Disclaimer: I am not a Computer Technician.

1. Airgapped systems of course are not going to have the kind of security risks that networked systems will have.

2. Drivers - True... IF you are running an OS that the driver works on as well as a hardware platform the driver works on.

For example, most industrial motherboards newer than Socket 478 Pentium 4 do not support DMA on the ISA bus. So any ISA card that requires DMA will not work on that platform.

For some older ISA cards, you also have the issue of some of it being speed sensitive. Usually in reference to the CPU speed.

Then there came a point where video cards started requiring the motherboard to have a UEFI BIOS and will not work with a legacy BIOS.

There is also old software that is sensitive to the CPU speed and will either run at the wrong speed or crash if the CPU is over a certain speed. 3rd party patches are available for many games that have crash if the CPU speed is too fast.

3. OS support. Windows driver models and architecture have changed a lot over the years. Not only are the .inf files very different, but so is how Windows allows access to hardware. Super old drivers simply cannot be made to work natively on newer versions of Windows. You would need a new driver written for the newer Windows OSes. This just isn't going to happen for the most part unless a hobbyist creates one from scratch.

Same goes for a lot of older software. Not only are the ancient standard libraries not included but there is also the fact that either 16-bit software is of course not able to be run on 64-bit versions of Windows.. though you do still have the option to run a gimped 32-bit version of a newer OS.

And if the software is meant to directly access the ancient hardware, newer versions of Windows are not going to allow that either without some custom piece of middleware.

Disclaimer.. I am a computer technician and programmer.

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header

Reply 49 of 166, by bestemor

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cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-13, 02:22:

Then there came a point where video cards started requiring the motherboard to have a UEFI BIOS and will not work with a legacy BIOS.

Oh, did not know that ! Please elaborate, which card models etc ?

Last edited by Stiletto on 2021-06-14, 21:24. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 50 of 166, by darry

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bestemor wrote on 2021-06-13, 10:32:
cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-13, 02:22:

Then there came a point where video cards started requiring the motherboard to have a UEFI BIOS and will not work with a legacy BIOS.

Oh, did not know that ! Please elaborate, which card models etc ?

Example (RX5700) and workaround : https://youtu.be/fMF_SPcLL0Y

Last edited by Stiletto on 2021-06-14, 21:24. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 51 of 166, by BitWrangler

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cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-13, 02:22:

3. OS support. Windows driver models and architecture have changed a lot over the years. Not only are the .inf files very different, but so is how Windows allows access to hardware. Super old drivers simply cannot be made to work natively on newer versions of Windows. You would need a new driver written for the newer Windows OSes. This just isn't going to happen for the most part unless a hobbyist creates one from scratch.

Then there's a lot of drivers that are a Windoze generation older than you think they are. Yay, a Win98 driver... it's the uglypatched win 3.11 driver underneath... not written clean for latest 98SE WDM so having a faint hope of running in ME/XP. Likewise the "if it runs on Win7 why can't I get it running on 8" driver is probably the uglypatch of an XP or Vista driver.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 52 of 166, by Caluser2000

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Shreddoc wrote on 2021-06-12, 21:25:

Already, shortages of the most revered retro hardware mean that many retro enthusiasts will definitely live out their lives without personally owning, say, a Model M keyboard, or a Gravis Ultrasound, or a real MT-32, original IBM machines, CRT screens, or many old consoles.
*SNIP*

I can say with my hand on my heart I never ever yearned for a model M keyboard, or original IBM systems and I'm replacing as many crts as I can with LCD monitors.

They can have them ....

There's a glitch in the matrix.
A founding member of the 286 appreciation society.
Apparently 32-bit is dead and nobody likes P4s.
Of course, as always, I'm open to correction...😉

Reply 53 of 166, by darry

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Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-06-14, 17:11:
Shreddoc wrote on 2021-06-12, 21:25:

Already, shortages of the most revered retro hardware mean that many retro enthusiasts will definitely live out their lives without personally owning, say, a Model M keyboard, or a Gravis Ultrasound, or a real MT-32, original IBM machines, CRT screens, or many old consoles.
*SNIP*

I can say with my hand on my heart I never ever yearned for a model M keyboard, or original IBM systems and I'm replacing as many crts as I can with LCD monitors.

They can have them ....

I don't care for CRTs for anything VGA and higher (15KHz stuff is another matter, potentially), but people will need to pry my model M keyboards from my cold, dead, rigor-mortised hands .

Reply 54 of 166, by Caluser2000

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darry wrote on 2021-06-14, 19:40:
Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-06-14, 17:11:
Shreddoc wrote on 2021-06-12, 21:25:

Already, shortages of the most revered retro hardware mean that many retro enthusiasts will definitely live out their lives without personally owning, say, a Model M keyboard, or a Gravis Ultrasound, or a real MT-32, original IBM machines, CRT screens, or many old consoles.
*SNIP*

I can say with my hand on my heart I never ever yearned for a model M keyboard, or original IBM systems and I'm replacing as many crts as I can with LCD monitors.

They can have them ....

I don't care for CRTs for anything VGA and higher (15KHz stuff is another matter, potentially), but people will need to pry my model M keyboards from my cold, dead, rigor-mortised hands .

🤣 😀

There's a glitch in the matrix.
A founding member of the 286 appreciation society.
Apparently 32-bit is dead and nobody likes P4s.
Of course, as always, I'm open to correction...😉

Reply 55 of 166, by Shreddoc

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Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-06-14, 17:11:
Shreddoc wrote on 2021-06-12, 21:25:

Already, shortages of the most revered retro hardware mean that many retro enthusiasts will definitely live out their lives without personally owning, say, a Model M keyboard, or a Gravis Ultrasound, or a real MT-32, original IBM machines, CRT screens, or many old consoles.
*SNIP*

I can say with my hand on my heart I never ever yearned for a model M keyboard, or original IBM systems and I'm replacing as many crts as I can with LCD monitors.

They can have them ....

Welcome to how I feel about cars, nightclubs, and football. 😀 We each receive a special medal, I guess.

Doesn't change the fact those things are very popular trends among certain groups.

Reply 56 of 166, by Caluser2000

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Shreddoc wrote on 2021-06-14, 21:19:
Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-06-14, 17:11:
Shreddoc wrote on 2021-06-12, 21:25:

Already, shortages of the most revered retro hardware mean that many retro enthusiasts will definitely live out their lives without personally owning, say, a Model M keyboard, or a Gravis Ultrasound, or a real MT-32, original IBM machines, CRT screens, or many old consoles.
*SNIP*

I can say with my hand on my heart I never ever yearned for a model M keyboard, or original IBM systems and I'm replacing as many crts as I can with LCD monitors.

They can have them ....

Welcome to how I feel about cars, nightclubs, and football. 😀 We each receive a special medal, I guess.

Doesn't change the fact those things are very popular trends among certain groups.

I'm a motorcycle person:

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There's a glitch in the matrix.
A founding member of the 286 appreciation society.
Apparently 32-bit is dead and nobody likes P4s.
Of course, as always, I'm open to correction...😉

Reply 57 of 166, by Shreddoc

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Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-06-14, 21:35:
Shreddoc wrote on 2021-06-14, 21:19:
Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-06-14, 17:11:

I can say with my hand on my heart I never ever yearned for a model M keyboard, or original IBM systems and I'm replacing as many crts as I can with LCD monitors.

They can have them ....

Welcome to how I feel about cars, nightclubs, and football. 😀 We each receive a special medal, I guess.

Doesn't change the fact those things are very popular trends among certain groups.

I'm a motorcycle person:

Motor vehicles are not of interest to me. I would replace them with CRTs. 😉

You can have them....

Reply 58 of 166, by Caluser2000

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Shreddoc wrote on 2021-06-14, 22:44:
Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-06-14, 21:35:
Shreddoc wrote on 2021-06-14, 21:19:

Welcome to how I feel about cars, nightclubs, and football. 😀 We each receive a special medal, I guess.

Doesn't change the fact those things are very popular trends among certain groups.

I'm a motorcycle person:

Motor vehicles are not of interest to me. I would replace them with CRTs. 😉

You can have them....

And I will indeeddy.

At 61 I can still lift up my motorcycles 😀

Unlike my 19" Dell trinitron crt................

There's a glitch in the matrix.
A founding member of the 286 appreciation society.
Apparently 32-bit is dead and nobody likes P4s.
Of course, as always, I'm open to correction...😉

Reply 59 of 166, by armani

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I am a purist when it comes to getting parts for my old systems, but in a last ditch effort, I would simply just buy new parts to replace them. A lot of people are starting to make new parts for old systems nowadays, especially stuff for Amiga/early DOS