Rolling 25 year old cutoff would work I'd think.

I it would depend on the supposed starting point. I'd go to say as far as Windows 2000 systems at this point. But that is just me....😉

BitWrangler wrote on 2021-07-03, 23:47:

Rolling 25 year old cutoff would work I'd think.

Completely agree! [EDIT] My initial math was very wrong so I initially disagreed 🤣

As a side note, I'm sure that unless it's to show off the capabilities of specific cards, custom builds wouldn't fly.

So a bonus question would be, what are the most iconic mid 90s OEMs? Like you see it and immediately think "yes THAT'S 1995." Dell? Compaq? Packard Bell?

BitWrangler wrote on 2021-07-03, 23:47:

Rolling 25 year old cutoff would work I'd think.

I second that, because some platforms aged differently fast, so to say.

Also, some platforms or computers had a different significance in history.

Let's just think of the original XBOX, the iPod or the original Kindle ebook device.
They have their place in history, but aren't exactly vintage (they have USB ports).

As an inspriration, have a look at this. The video games exhibition is a permanent one.:
https://zkm.de/en/exhibition/2018/09/zkmgamep … -the-next-level

I think the things that have enough significance to be shown in a museum are mostly the big firsts and the big lasts. And generally the high-end versions of those. Things that either revolutionized computing and last ditch efforts of companies that for a time dominated it. Aside of that, interesting, odd and ambitious attempts that never blew up.

Too bad he cut off at 1995. IMHO 1997 was a banner year for PCs. It was the year I targeted for own retro build. Pentium chips were proliferating, with 233 MMXs becoming "affordable" due to the super new and super pricy Pentium II's. Plus the dawn of the first real 3D cards like the Voodoo and the Riva 128. You see a lot of ads in 1997 magazines for a P233 MMX , 32 MB RAM, 4 MB VRAM cards (Riva 128 or Voodoo most often), with all the trimmings, for $2500. Or about $4000 in 2020 dollars last I checked.

And that computer would take you across numerous high water marks in PC gaming. StarCraft, Quake 2, Diablo, Red Alert, Age of Empires, Wing Commander Prophecy, Jedi Knight, Might & Magic VI, Baldur's Gate. Those 4MB of VRAM start feeling a bit tight pretty quickly, but things still run. Even if by the time Half-Life comes out, it's looking pretty rough.

Namrok wrote on 2021-07-04, 12:26:

Too bad he cut off at 1995. IMHO 1997 was a banner year for PCs. It was the year I targeted for own retro build. Pentium chips were proliferating, with 233 MMXs becoming "affordable" due to the super new and super pricy Pentium II's. Plus the dawn of the first real 3D cards like the Voodoo and the Riva 128. You see a lot of ads in 1997 magazines for a P233 MMX , 32 MB RAM, 4 MB VRAM cards (Riva 128 or Voodoo most often), with all the trimmings, for $2500. Or about $4000 in 2020 dollars last I checked.

And that computer would take you across numerous high water marks in PC gaming. StarCraft, Quake 2, Diablo, Red Alert, Age of Empires, Wing Commander Prophecy, Jedi Knight, Might & Magic VI, Baldur's Gate. Those 4MB of VRAM start feeling a bit tight pretty quickly, but things still run. Even if by the time Half-Life comes out, it's looking pretty rough.

Darn you're right! I thought 96 for voodoo, but Nvidia didn't really enter until 97.

RandomStranger wrote on 2021-07-04, 09:48:

I think the things that have enough significance to be shown in a museum are mostly the big firsts and the big lasts. And generally the high-end versions of those. Things that either revolutionized computing and last ditch efforts of companies that for a time dominated it. Aside of that, interesting, odd and ambitious attempts that never blew up.

Another thing I was just thinking last night. I believe some things sort of forgo a date cut off. The Voodoo 5 is a great example for big lasts, PowerVR for the ambitious attempts, etc.

Even then it's not like I'd take over his entire 90s section. Really I just want one medium sized desk with as many computers possible hooked up to one KVM and monitor. Each machine will be a recognizable 90s OEM configured with a particular graphics card solution. The visitor can then see and play the same games running on each machine, to see how they compared. Definitely targeting games that made use of multiple APIs, like croc or unreal. As a bonus some of the machines would be set up for Aureal Vortex and others Live!s.

Xwindows rans fine on a P2000mmx with 4megs of vram...😉

Maybe you could do a *nix section just for variety.

I agree with the time frames already discussed, all have fair points. There'll never be one absolute perfect answer/year.

I know it's not a moving/relative reference, but the turn of the millennium is another very simple milestone which anybody can relate to. A somewhat inversion of the hopeful sentiment we all used to feel prior to 2000: "In 20xx, things are going to be amazing! flying cars! space bases! world peace! live forever!". 🤣

Shreddoc wrote on 2021-07-04, 21:05:

I agree with the time frames already discussed, all have fair points. There'll never be one absolute perfect answer/year.

I know it's not a moving/relative reference, but the turn of the millennium is another very simple milestone which anybody can relate to. A somewhat inversion of the hopeful sentiment we all used to feel prior to 2000: "In 20xx, things are going to be amazing! flying cars! space bases! world peace! live forever!". 🤣

It's really funny looking back aint it. My wife and I have gone back to watch older TV shows like Mission Impossible, Kojak, Perry Mason etc. They have far less gore. I must say though we balance that out with Joe Kenda episodes. Joe and Kojak are my heros...😉

And yes I am still waiting for my flippen Jetson model flying car, I put a substantial deposit down on, to show up........

Shreddoc wrote on 2021-07-04, 21:05:

I know it's not a moving/relative reference, but the turn of the millennium is another very simple milestone which anybody can relate to.

Yeah, especially since that's when hardware T&L entered the consumer market with Geforece 256 in 1999 and ATI Radeon in 2000.

Yup. I agreed with the 99 limit before, but for different reasons.

After that hardware became largely homogenized. Pretty much every PC began to have AMD and NVIDIA and AMD or Intel by then. The only interesting thing from the XP era that doesn't exist today is hardware accelerated sound. Besides XP itself being a monument (what other os lasted for over a decade besides dos?)

But it's true, people's perceptions of the time is another big reason I didn't think of. My point is, from XP on it largely becomes "gaming history" not "computing history". Which would arguably need a different museum altogether. Besides hardware sound (which can be showed off in 9x anyway), I'd say the advent of multi threading (pentium 4) and dual core would be of note.

That which is emblematic of hardware architectures no longer in common use.

I'd put a 1997 era late AT machine with Windows 95 in a museum alongside maybe a 386 and an original IBM PC.

keenmaster486 wrote on 2021-07-05, 15:56:

That which is emblematic of hardware architectures no longer in common use.

I'd put a 1997 era late AT machine with Windows 95 in a museum alongside maybe a 386 and an original IBM PC.

Aha! It wasn't OEMs I was looking for, it was form factor. You're right AT is what screams 90s.

Btw he already has a 386 and every original IBM you can think of 😉. My concerns is that he pretty much just has original pentium machines from 95 and that's it. The first commercial one, made by Compaq to be exact, and a few similar ones.

Shreddoc wrote on 2021-07-04, 21:05:

I agree with the time frames already discussed, all have fair points. There'll never be one absolute perfect answer/year.

I know it's not a moving/relative reference, but the turn of the millennium is another very simple milestone which anybody can relate to. A somewhat inversion of the hopeful sentiment we all used to feel prior to 2000: "In 20xx, things are going to be amazing! flying cars! space bases! world peace! live forever!". 🤣

the museum example could have it's date set to 3st dec 1999 each day so people could crowd round and note how the y2k bug just wasn't

( i know it wasn't really considered specifically a PC issue, but it would be a nostalgic crowd pleaser to see how nothing much happened ! )

keenmaster486 wrote on 2021-07-05, 15:56:

That which is emblematic of hardware architectures no longer in common use.

I'd put a 1997 era late AT machine with Windows 95 in a museum alongside maybe a 386 and an original IBM PC.

A Compaq 386DX DeskPro system would be the go I'd imagine. First manufacture to ship a system with a 386 IIRC.

rishooty wrote on 2021-07-05, 16:00:

keenmaster486 wrote on 2021-07-05, 15:56:

That which is emblematic of hardware architectures no longer in common use.

I'd put a 1997 era late AT machine with Windows 95 in a museum alongside maybe a 386 and an original IBM PC.

Aha! It wasn't OEMs I was looking for, it was form factor. You're right AT is what screams 90s.

Btw he already has a 386 and every original IBM you can think of 😉. My concerns is that he pretty much just has original pentium machines from 95 and that's it. The first commercial one, made by Compaq to be exact, and a few similar ones.

Compaq established a lot of firsts in the late '80s/.early '90s

Apricot shipped the first 486 system.

anything of historical significance, that doesn't necessarily mean there's any age cutoff, more modern hardware from the 2000s can be there as well to show important steps in technological development... i.e. Athlon64.

but if it is strictly a "vintage" museum, then I assume anything from the mid 90s can already be "too modern"

imi wrote on 2021-07-05, 16:57:

anything of historical significance, that doesn't necessarily mean there's any age cutoff, more modern hardware from the 2000s can be there as well to show important steps in technological development... i.e. Athlon64.

but if it is strictly a "vintage" museum, then I assume anything from the mid 90s can already be "too modern"

Well that's why I posed the debate here. I still think 97 is doable, because the pentium isn't being showed off to it's full potential without higher clock speeds and 3D graphics. Everything after that is really just subjective and nice to have imo, but I'm more than glad to continue discussing it.

Basically pentium was a big deal. But I want to truly show WHY it was a big deal. Early pentiums can't really do that.